Phoenix Hybrids. Help ID!

[Vladislav Feoktistov]

Unknown Phoenix Hybrid #1

Phoenix Hybrid by Vlad Feoktistov, on Flickr

This palm stands on palm lined Lenin Avenue in Adler district, Sochi. Pure Phoenix Canariensis and (may be hybrid) Sylvestris were planted there a long time ago. This one looks like neither Canariensis nor Sylvestris. Who are his parents might be?

Unknown Phoenix Hybrid or Sylvestris#2

Phoenix Sylvestris or no? by Vlad Feoktistov, on Flickr

This stunning palm stands in residential area in Adler district, Sochi. I had been looking for Phoenix Sylvestris in Sochi for a long time and now I think I finally found it!

[merrillwx]

Hi, Vlad:

The second palm is plausible as P. sylvestris

Best Wishes,

merrill

[Vladislav Feoktistov]

Please help to identify this palm tree! by Vlad Feoktistov, on Flickr

Location: Abandoned Boulevard, Sochi

Hardiness: Survived 23°F/ -5.1°C with little leaf damage without protection

Genus: Phoenix

Species: Unknown

I always had been thinking it might be CIDP, but I noticed today red dates.

Note the red dates and gray trunk. This photo shows palm tree in it's normal condition.

[Vladislav Feoktistov]

Sochi Esplanade: Is it Hybrid Phoenix? by Vlad Feoktistov, on Flickr

Location: Abandoned Boulevard, Sochi

Hardiness: Survived 23°F/ -5.1°C without any leaf damage (no protection)

Genus: Phoenix

Species: Unknown

This one is a real puzzle for me. Note it's straight leaves and very dense crown.

Edited September 5, 2011 by Vladislav Feoktistov

[amazon exotics]

I would say pic 1 is a Rupicola cross for sure. Maybe with Canary.

[amazon exotics]

I would say pic 1 is a Rupicola cross for sure. Maybe with Canary.

Actually not Canary more like sylvestris.

[Sutter Bob]

Number 1 is sure an attractive palm.

I wonder what its offspring will look like.

[Butiagrus]

Hello,

The first palm look like a coconut ! I love it !

I'm agree that is probably a (Phoenix rupicola X sylvestris)

JBG

[newtothis]

I like how #3 has almost no curve to its short leafs. If you collect seeds I shure would be interested in some.

[Vladislav Feoktistov]

I like how #3 has almost no curve to its short leafs. If you collect seeds I shure would be interested in some.

Can you clarify, please? Do you want seeds from #3 or #4? #3 has curvy leafs.

[gyuseppe]

the phoenix of photo number 1 and number 2 are very beautiful

[sarasota alex]

I think that it's unlikely (although possible of course) that any palm species of Phoenix other than P. canariensis and P. sylvestris are involved here. These palms were germinated during the Soviet times and are likely to have come from the seeds of Phoenix palms grown in the Caucasus Black Sea shore region from Sochi down to the Turkish border. The only two species of Phoenix palms that flower and seed in the region are P. canariensis and P. sylvestris. Based on what I know there was a four decade gap in introducing any palms from abroad into the region from 1950s to 1990s. This is likely the period of time when these were born.

I do agree that it looks like there is some P. rupicola there, but after narrowing down the possibilities I have to doubt it. I've seen some pictures of seasonal potted P. roebelenii growing outdoors in Sochi with male flowers. So we can expect that species to enter the Sochi Phoenix gene pool soon.

[sanyok]

Alex, I don't agree with you.

In the book "Palms of USSR" phoenix rupicola, phoenix reclinata and phoenix dactylifera are also mentioned. I sincerely hope all those species at least as hybrids with canariensis are presented at Russian coast of the Black Sea.

I also have an unidentified hybrid. The left palm on photo.

[Brad Mondel]

The second one looks like a Phoenix loureirii.

[virtualpalm]

I'm thinking the first one could be P. canariensis x dactylifera.

Jody

[sarasota alex]

Alex, I don't agree with you.

In the book "Palms of USSR" phoenix rupicola, phoenix reclinata and phoenix dactylifera are also mentioned. I sincerely hope all those species at least as hybrids with canariensis are presented at Russian coast of the Black Sea.

I also have an unidentified hybrid. The left palm on photo.

Phoenix canariensis and P. sylvestris are the only ones that have ever set seeds (and to my knowledge flowered) in the Sochi region or further south to Batumi.

P. reclinata has been successfully introduced a couple of times starting in 1896, but would never reproduce. I haven't seen any adult P. reclinata in Sochi/Abkhazia/Georgia photos, so I would speculate that they'd died of old age. There has never been a successful long-term P. dactylifera introduction in the region. P. paludosa was the only other one that was tried outside in Sukhumi, and it lasted 3 winters. I suspect that P. theophrasti was also tried there, but it was not considered a separate species until 1967, so Saakov would have just listed it as P. dactylifera.

Alexander, although all of the species are mentioned in the book, the Phoenix introduction section on pages 227-232 don't mention P. rupicola. It's present in the list of all palms in the USSR on page 223, but that list also includes palms grown in the Botanical Garden orangeries.

[sarasota alex]

Phoenix spp. exhibit a certain degree of sexual dimorphism. However insignificant, it may still obscure identification.

[virtualpalm]

Palm #2 looks like a pure P. sylvestris to me, and #3 is most likely a neglected pure P. canariensis. Palm #4 could also be a pure P. canariensis with leaves stunted by the salt wind. And palm #4 looks like it might be a P. canariensis x dactylifera as well. Just guessing of course.

Jody

[virtualpalm]

Phoenix spp. exhibit a certain degree of sexual dimorphism. However insignificant, it may still obscure identification.

In the inflorescence, for sure, but I have not noticed any sexual dimorphism in vegetative morphology.

Jody

[sarasota alex]

Phoenix spp. exhibit a certain degree of sexual dimorphism. However insignificant, it may still obscure identification.

In the inflorescence, for sure, but I have not noticed any sexual dimorphism in vegetative morphology.

Jody

There have been several studies about the sexual dimorphism in the Phoenix genus. Most of them are about P. canariensis, where dimorphism is most obvious, such as this presentation http://www.elipse-eventos.com/phoenixcanariensisconference/archivos/18/DIAZ-BERTRANA.pdf

I have noticed that sometimes male CIDPs are erroneously considered to be hybrids.

I have P. roebelenii of both sexes and the differences are apparent. Female fronds are more densely placed than male and the curvature is slightly different. Actually if you take a male and a female P. roebelenii of reproductive age and remove all of the leaves completely, you could see the differences in the leaf placement.

[Vladislav Feoktistov]

Alex, I don't agree with you.

In the book "Palms of USSR" phoenix rupicola, phoenix reclinata and phoenix dactylifera are also mentioned. I sincerely hope all those species at least as hybrids with canariensis are presented at Russian coast of the Black Sea.

I also have an unidentified hybrid. The left palm on photo.

The left palm is Phoenix Canariensis damaged during transplantation from construction site.

[sonoranfans]

Alex, I don't agree with you.

In the book "Palms of USSR" phoenix rupicola, phoenix reclinata and phoenix dactylifera are also mentioned. I sincerely hope all those species at least as hybrids with canariensis are presented at Russian coast of the Black Sea.

I also have an unidentified hybrid. The left palm on photo.

The left palm is Phoenix Canariensis damaged during transplantation from construction site.

the straight fronds of #4 are highlyunusual for CIDP, but perhaps a CIDP x dactylifera. Dactyliferas have the straightest petioles I have seen in phoenix, sp. #2 also looks like near pure sylvestris to my eye.

[Kris]

Thanks for those beautiful visuals....

Love,

kris.

[damir]

vlad, could you take closer shots of the leaves of this phoenix palms,also and the fruits of them? one of these palms could be the phoenix canariensis hort. glauca. canariensis with gray-green leaves.

hybrid 1 3 and 4. 3rd looks most like the glauca canariensis,like you sent me the pic. 1st one like dactylifera x canariensis. 4th canariensis x ???

thanks

rgds

plus, the car in 1st pic "lada niva" is the best off road car there is, what ever u decide for the palms

Edited October 4, 2011 by damir