Identifying a Hybrid Cocoid

[buffy]

After discovering that my juvenile ButiaxParajubaea was actually just Butia capitata through the assitance of board members, I want to learn a little more about how to confirm parentage. Here's what I know so far:

1. If everything isn't green when you're going pinnate, it's not likely a hybrid.

I currently have a JuBu I bought at Tejas Tropicals that is probably 2-3 years old and it's showing blue in the petioles. Everything about it looks like a Butia. What else do I need to look at? I studied my big Jub and a big But, and besides the color and the presentation of the leaflets, I don't know what to look at? Again, the JuBu looks like a Butia to me. No real armament yet, but the fronds have the graceful curvature of the Butia and and a v-shape presentation of the leaflets.

[Kris]

Any Visuals...? Buffy

[Mark Heath]

Pics please!!!!!

[buffy]

I'm actually looking for the characteristics you guys lean on that scream hybrid. The color of the palm is one of them. What else is there?

[Nigel]

Buffy, young JxB are notoriously difficult to be certain of. If it is an f2, f3 etc it is even harder. With size it should get more obvious but not neccessarily definitive.

The other hybrids, with syagrus or parajubaea seem much easier because the plant is greener and shows much vigour.

[merrill]

Hi, Buffy:

May have misunderstood, but some of the Butiinae hybrids are bluish, rather than pure green. Jubaea/Butia hybrids tend to have stiffer fronds and a shallower V on the frond than Butia itself.

merrill

Edited August 31, 2009 by merrill

[Gallop]

How about this one can you tell if it may be JXB

Edited August 31, 2009 by Gallop

[Tejastropicals]

I am interested in opinions as well since I sold the plant to Cameron. The seedlings were bought from Patrick in California so I have to believe that if harvested from a Jub they are either hybrids or Jubs and they are growing much faster than any Jub. I'll post a picture of some if Cameron doesnt. I do trust Patrick.

[buffy]

I am interested in opinions as well since I sold the plant to Cameron. The seedlings were bought from Patrick in California so I have to believe that if harvested from a Jub they are either hybrids or Jubs and they are growing much faster than any Jub. I'll post a picture of some if Cameron doesnt. I do trust Patrick.

The more I look at it, the more obvious the intermediate character appears. The planar display of the fronds is much more like a Jub than a Butia. The most recent frond has a more Butia-like V, but it may still be stretching out, because all the other ones look intermediate. And in reality, these don't have the graceful Butia look right now. So scratch my earlier observation. Fronds are green, and the petioles are showing some blue. And finally, if these came from Patric Schafer, the worst case scenario would make these Jubs, and these are not Jubs. Here are some pics:

I guess you really have to look for the intermediate character. And as always, David at Tejas Tropicals is very responsive to his customers. Be sure to check him out on the web.

[Nigel]

Buffy, Patric was selling BxJ F2 and he made some JxB F1,s.

If this plant comes from a seed produced on the Jub then congrats you have an F1 JxB ,very special.

[Mark Heath]

Buffy, Patric was selling BxJ F2 and he made some JxB F1,s.

If this plant comes from a seed produced on the Jub then congrats you have an F1 JxB ,very special.

Nigel,

I have heard from people here that BXJ will not accept it's own pollen. If this is true, then how did Patrick get f2 seedlings? I sure hope that they can accept their own pollen, seeing i have a few and within 5-6 years i should have them flowering!!!

Also, i noted that you said he produced JXB in the past few years, seeing mine are older i would guess that BXJ is what i have. I am happy w/ either one .

Eric and i have kept our eye on a large BXJ in Lake Eola Pk but it has never produced viable seed unfortunatly.

Let me know your thoughts.

Merrill, if you see this, please fill me in as well.

[Nigel]

Buffy, Patric was selling BxJ F2 and he made some JxB F1,s.

If this plant comes from a seed produced on the Jub then congrats you have an F1 JxB ,very special.

Nigel,

I have heard from people here that BXJ will not accept it's own pollen. If this is true, then how did Patrick get f2 seedlings? I sure hope that they can accept their own pollen, seeing i have a few and within 5-6 years i should have them flowering!!!

Also, i noted that you said he produced JXB in the past few years, seeing mine are older i would guess that BXJ is what i have. I am happy w/ either one .

Eric and i have kept our eye on a large BXJ in Lake Eola Pk but it has never produced viable seed unfortunatly.

Let me know your thoughts.

Merrill, if you see this, please fill me in as well.

Mark, I believe Dicks BxJ is backcrossing with other Butias, maybe Dick can confirm.

I remember reading that the palm you mention in Lake Eola pk may be related to Dicks , has anybody tried Butia pollen on the inflorescences ?

[PalmGuyWC]

Nigel, et al,

Initally we thought the seed producing hybrid that I have was a Jubaea X Butia, but after carefull consideration, we decided it was a Butia X Jubaea. Before Patrick started hybridizing it the palm used to set a good amount of seeds, and we assumed they were F2 hybrids. Later on Patrick determined the palm was self sterile, as under controlled conditions, not one seed would set with its own pollen. Growing nearby were some Butias, so we had to conclude the seeds it was setting were (Butia X Jubaea) X Butia. Later on it was determined the hybrid palm would accept Butia, Jubaea and Syagrus pollen, but not Parajubaea pollen. The pollen from the Butia X Jubaea would also set viable seeds on Syagrus and Jubaea as well as some other Butia species.

Dick

[buffy]

Nigel, et al,

Initally we thought the seed producing hybrid that I have was a Jubaea X Butia, but after carefull consideration, we decided it was a Butia X Jubaea. Before Patrick started hybridizing it the palm used to set a good amount of seeds, and we assumed they were F2 hybrids. Later on Patrick determined the palm was self sterile, as under controlled conditions, not one seed would set with its own pollen. Growing nearby were some Butias, so we had to conclude the seeds it was setting were (Butia X Jubaea) X Butia. Later on it was determined the hybrid palm would accept Butia, Jubaea and Syagrus pollen, but not Parajubaea pollen. The pollen from the Butia X Jubaea would also set viable seeds on Syagrus and Jubaea as well as some other Butia species.

Dick

So I guess the question David needs to ask Patric is what he actually bought from Patric. Interesting.

Guys. Would you agree that my pictures above show intermediate characteristics?

[Kris]

Nice topic & iam glad see some visuals...

[Mark Heath]

Dick,

Here is a pic of my BXJXS. It has grown very quickly and has been in the ground since April.

[Mark Heath]

Nigel,

Sorry, i forgot to respond to your question. I live about 30 miles east of downtown Orlando, so it is difficult for me

to keep an eye on the BxJ. I would love to pollinate it w/ Queen pollen, but Eric has informed me that the maintenence

people are now cutting off the inflorescences so it would'nt be worth the hassel.

I will say that i am dissapointed knowing my Hybrids that i bought have only a hint of Jubaea in them,,, BxJxB. Something is better than nothing i guess!

Here is another pic of one of my hybrids, BXSXCostea, a triple cross.

[ricky]

just out off interest Nigel was the jxb F2 you sold were these from dicks tree

ricky

[Nigel]

Ricky, yes it came from dicks tree.

Mark, it really is frustrating to have a beautiful hybrid and then watch the flowers get cut off.

You have some wonderful hybrids in your collection, I am very envious. I had one of the best collections in england but sold everything.

I was trying to collect coconut pollen today to hybridise my neighbours butia. It seems almost impossible to take pollen from a coconut flower. Is the coconut flower a very low producer of pollen ?

[Mark Heath]

Ricky, yes it came from dicks tree.

Mark, it really is frustrating to have a beautiful hybrid and then watch the flowers get cut off.

You have some wonderful hybrids in your collection, I am very envious. I had one of the best collections in england but sold everything.

I was trying to collect coconut pollen today to hybridise my neighbours butia. It seems almost impossible to take pollen from a coconut flower. Is the coconut flower a very low producer of pollen ?

Nigel, i have mature flowering Cocos here and i watched them closely for years in regards to flowering. I noticed that i needed to wait a few weeks untill the male flowers just started opening. I came to the conclusion that the male flowers needed to mature a little unlike Syagrus male flowers. Even after my studies i still cannot recieve a good amount of pollen. Just be patient and wait for it to mature!

Thank you for your kind words about my collection! It's funny though, i am envious w/ your current situation, you're living the dream!!

You had quite the collection when you lived in the UK! It is time for you to start another collection, and man it's gonna be a whopper!! You have all those different palms to play with!

[PalmGuyWC]

Mark,

It appears your (Butia X Jubaea) X Syagrus is more robust and growing faster than mine, but I guess that's to be expected growing in your Florida climate. I expect yours and mine came from the same seed lott, but mine was only planted about a year ago.

Concerning the (Butia X Jubaea) X Butia that we thought were F2 hybrids, I have one that has been rather slowing growing and for all pratical purposes at this stage, it looks like a Butia but seems to have a heavier texture. Mine has very arching fronds and is mostly green. I'm hoping they will show some Jubaea characteristics as they grow older. They should be more cold hardy than Butia with some Jubaea in them.

My Butia X Jubaea F1 looked like a Butia in it's early stages, but as it grew older and formed a trunk and bloomed it was obvious it was a hybrid. The palm is larger than a butia and has a thick trunk, thicker than the typical butia. The fronds are a blue/green color and have an interesting "twist" that gives the palm a very graceful apperance.

The oddest hybrid that I'm toying with now is a Jubaea X Syagrus. It looks quite different from the other hybrids and is dark green. It has just started to have divided fronds and they are very stiff and have a heavy texture like Jubaea. Patrick said he only had 7 seeds of this hybrid to germinate, but he has another crop coming along that will be sellable sizes soon. It seems Jubaea is very difficult to hybridize except with Butia and also Butia X Jubaea. Jubaea crossed with Syagrus aborts most of the seeds and there are not many hybrid seeds left.

I keep harping on the subject, but my very favorite of Patrick's hybrids is Butia X Parajubaea. It's the largest of Patrick's hybrids that I have and is now large enough that I can stand under the fronds. The base of the trunk is larger than a basket ball and is still expanding. It is the fastest growing palm I have.

Dick

[swolf]

Dick, do you know which of your butias Patrick used to make your BXP cross. It's a beauty!

Steve

St. Augustine FL

[PalmGuyWC]

Steve,

The B X P that I have actually came from a Butia that belonged to someone else, but it was a Butia capitata. In the last two or three years he's been crossing B. yata, B. paraguayensis, as well as various B. capitata with P. cocoides and P TVT. It remains to be seen what the new crosses will look like as they are to small to show any adult characteristics. I would imagine they would all look very similar.

Dick

[Mark Heath]

Mark,

It appears your (Butia X Jubaea) X Syagrus is more robust and growing faster than mine, but I guess that's to be expected growing in your Florida climate. I expect yours and mine came from the same seed lott, but mine was only planted about a year ago.

Concerning the (Butia X Jubaea) X Butia that we thought were F2 hybrids, I have one that has been rather slowing growing and for all pratical purposes at this stage, it looks like a Butia but seems to have a heavier texture. Mine has very arching fronds and is mostly green. I'm hoping they will show some Jubaea characteristics as they grow older. They should be more cold hardy than Butia with some Jubaea in them.

My Butia X Jubaea F1 looked like a Butia in it's early stages, but as it grew older and formed a trunk and bloomed it was obvious it was a hybrid. The palm is larger than a butia and has a thick trunk, thicker than the typical butia. The fronds are a blue/green color and have an interesting "twist" that gives the palm a very graceful apperance.

The oddest hybrid that I'm toying with now is a Jubaea X Syagrus. It looks quite different from the other hybrids and is dark green. It has just started to have divided fronds and they are very stiff and have a heavy texture like Jubaea. Patrick said he only had 7 seeds of this hybrid to germinate, but he has another crop coming along that will be sellable sizes soon. It seems Jubaea is very difficult to hybridize except with Butia and also Butia X Jubaea. Jubaea crossed with Syagrus aborts most of the seeds and there are not many hybrid seeds left.

I keep harping on the subject, but my very favorite of Patrick's hybrids is Butia X Parajubaea. It's the largest of Patrick's hybrids that I have and is now large enough that I can stand under the fronds. The base of the trunk is larger than a basket ball and is still expanding. It is the fastest growing palm I have.

Dick

Dick,

Thank you for explaining everything!!! My BxJxS has been in the ground for about 5 months. It has grown very quickly since.

Your Jubaea x Syagrus is one i would die for!!! You are so lucky!!!!!

Please keep harping about your BXP, i love mine as well and i can't wait untill it flowers, which should be in a few years.

I have been babying that sucker this year bigtime!!!

I am also happy to see that a Butia.C that i grew from seed is finally flowering for the first time, normally not a big deal but the trunk on this palm is HUGE!!!!! My brother is coming over this weekend to see if he can fix my computer so i can load pics again. If he is successfull, i'll take a pic of it.

Mark

[Wai`anae Steve]

How about this one can you tell if it may be JXB

Lately people are posting such small photos. Why?

[Gallop]

I'm a Capt. aboard a ship in the Gulf of Mexico and bandwidth is an issue for me, that's why I tend not post as often as I would like.

Respectfully,

Gallop

Lately people are posting such small photos. Why?

[Mark Heath]

I'm a Capt. aboard a ship in the Gulf of Mexico and bandwidth is an issue for me, that's why I tend not post as often as I would like.

Respectfully,

Gallop

Lately people are posting such small photos. Why?

Well, are you clicking on the pic?? If you click on my pics they blow up the whole screen! If you're talking about other people i can't answer that.

[iamjv]

Mark, here is hoping your brother fixes your computer..... looking forward to new photos.... always enjoy these hybrid threads to the fullest! Thanks all. Jv

[merrill]

Fellow Palm students:

I've been watching the JXB [or inverse? or other JB mixture?] at Lake Eola for many years, altho it is a long drive from Gainesville. Have suspected it was genetically faulty since it has apparently never produced a viable seed. Can some of you neighbors at Orlando provide better info? That hybrid has been there a very long time!

Any one have influence on the foremen or higher at Lake Eola? The grounds superintendent and crew at UF years ago were exceedingly helpful to me.

Cocos nucifera is one of the most variable spp. I know. Some I've observed have copious pollen, yet others report there is little pollen on some varieties.

Best Wishes,

merrill

[Nigel]

Cocos nucifera is one of the most variable spp. I know. Some I've observed have copious pollen, yet others report there is little pollen on some varieties.

Best Wishes,

merrill

Hi Merrill,

I am using a dwarf coconut upon which flowers are easily accessible from the ground by hand. To date no coconuts have set on these plants. Maybe this is no good !

regards

Nigel.

[PalmGuyWC]

After Mark's report and picture of an "accidental" cross of Butia X Coconut, I know that several of you are attempting the cross. Has anyone had any success in setting seeds, or better yet, germination? If a Butia will cross with a Coconut, I bet Syagrus would cross too. It might not be as hardy as a B X C, but it might grow faster than B X C being half Syagrus. You never know what cross will be successful until you try it, and it might take several attempts using different palms. Some indivdual palms might be more receptive of foreign pollen than others.

Dick

[freakypalmguy]

Nice looking Hybrids Mark, it must be the beer that makes them grow so well.

Dick, I know that Mark has some seeds set from Butia X Coconut and I appear to have had some success as well. I pollinated two Butia infl. with cocos pollen and both are holding a decent amount of seed, with a small percent of those that are holding, growing large faster than the others. I suspect they will be the seeds with the highest chance off germination. We won't know until next spring when my Butia seeds typically begin to germinate.

Another hybrid that is holding is Butia X Allagoptera, which appears to have done ok also. Some of these seeds have taken on a more elongated appearance, which I suspect is from the Allagoptera parent.

Matt

[Mark Heath]

After Mark's report and picture of an "accidental" cross of Butia X Coconut, I know that several of you are attempting the cross. Has anyone had any success in setting seeds, or better yet, germination? If a Butia will cross with a Coconut, I bet Syagrus would cross too. It might not be as hardy as a B X C, but it might grow faster than B X C being half Syagrus. You never know what cross will be successful until you try it, and it might take several attempts using different palms. Some indivdual palms might be more receptive of foreign pollen than others.

Dick

I have had seeds but none have germinated yet. I cracked one open and there was endocarp and all.

I performed the cross late last year but i did'nt keep an eye on the seeds and they dried out midway through this summer. I have a second batch that i have kept a close eye on and i expect germination next summer. Hopefully both batches will germinate early next year.

I have'nt tried Syagrus as the parent palm, because anytime i have tried anything other than syagrus, i have recieved nothing. I am not saying it could'nt be done, expecially seeing others who have crossed Butia/Jubaea w/ Syagrus as the parent palm and they have been successfull. I should be more patient!! Merrill has a backwards Mule that is FANTASTIC!!!

I would love to see a Queen and Cocos mixed as well!!

I have tried Butia pollen on my Cocos and recieved nothing! The same results w/ Syagrus pollen.

Unfortunatly i'll have to wait for a year or so because we just had a bad winter, and my Cocos will have to recover so they can start producing again.

[merrill]

Hi, Nigel:

Hi, Mark:

The scientists at the Coconut Board in Jamaica were very generous with Cocos pollen to me some years ago. The Cocos pollen was so incompatible with Butia that we didn't even get sterile seed of any kind. But as I've said, there is tremendous variability within Cocos, and I offer Mark my VERY BEST WISHES!

merrill

Edited September 4, 2009 by merrill

[Nigel]

Hi, Nigel:

Hi, Mark:

The scientists at the Coconut Board in Jamaica were very generous with Cocos pollen to me some years ago. The Cocos pollen was so incompatible with Butia that we didn't even get sterile seed of any kind. But as I've said, there is tremendous variability within Cocos, and I offer Mark my VERY BEST WISHES!

merrill

Ah well................... I have finished pollinating my butia flowers with coco pollen, seeds are falling already, now I can only wait and hope that a few hold firm.

[PalmGuyWC]

Nigel,

Don't give up yet. You may have to try several different Butia mother plants before you find one that is receptive to Coconut pollen. On the other hand pollen from different Coconuts might do the trick. It's remarkable that Mark had a natural "accidental" Butia X Coconut, but from the pictures he has posted, it sure looks like one. I have one Butia that won't accept any foreign pollen and doesn't even self pollinate very well, but it sets hundreds of dummy seeds. It only self pollinates with about 5% and those fruit are much larger than the dummys.

Sometimes Patrick's successful crosses only hold on to a small precentage of the seeds. The ones that abort usually fall off in two to three weeks.

Mark, Patrick, using Syagrus as the mother plant, has successfully crossed with Butia, Butia X Jubaea, Parajubaea and Jubaea. This year he is going for broke and is using some exotic pollens, and so far so good as the fruit is holding on and growing. I call anything "exotic" that is frost tender and won't grow in our N. Calif. climate.

Dick

[Mark Heath]

Hi, Nigel:

Hi, Mark:

The scientists at the Coconut Board in Jamaica were very generous with Cocos pollen to me some years ago. The Cocos pollen was so incompatible with Butia that we didn't even get sterile seed of any kind. But as I've said, there is tremendous variability within Cocos, and I offer Mark my VERY BEST WISHES!

merrill

Thank you Merrill!!

That means alot to me! Seeing you are my mentour and teacher. Believe me, i want to cross the Butia w/ Cocos as

much as anyone, if not more! I'll keep an eye on my seeds and if/when they germinate we'll check them out.

You'll be the first to recieve the benefits of me being successfull, seeing i owe it all to you! You have been very kind w/ sharing your knowledge Merrill!!

Nigel,

Don't worry yet, i have never recieved a high amount of seed when using Cocos pollen. 20 seeds is the highest amount i have recieved. That is w/ the Butia that has about a 500/800 seed count when using Queen pollen.

Dick,

The Cocos that probably pollinated my Butia is the one that produced 19 coconuts in 2008. I never interrupted the inflorescences but studied them. On the other hand i harvested pollen from a different/larger Cocos that has been flowering for years as well so i can use that for my crossing palms.

One thing that i noticed was that the male flowers on the Cocos fell off before the female flowers were receptive, but another inflorescence opened and bingo! That is the reason i never interrupted the cycle. I wanted to harvest my own coconuts was the reason why.

I really need to try to use the Queen as the mother palm for funky pollen, i usually hit it w/ exotic pollen as you call it.

I collect and combine XCostea, S.Sp, and S.Coronata and pollinate it w/ that. Just for fun. I have hundreds germinating at this time that are the result of that cross. I have flowering specimens of the above species.

I find it interesting that some Butias are more resceptive than others. I only have two, well now 3! I will try the 3rd seeing it is short but stout, and i will let you know if it is stingy or not. I hope it is openly welcome to foreign pollen,

it's a whopper!

[MAUSER]

Experiment with Butia X Cocos nucifera

Fruit formation

[ErikSJI]

Experiment with Butia X Cocos nucifera

Fruit formation

Here are some updated photos of the Butia X cocos seedling that I have. I am still looking for more fresh Cocos pollen for him to attempt it again.

What do the palm experts here think? Is it just a Butia seedling? Is it to early to tell?

[ErikSJI]

Experiment with Butia X Cocos nucifera

Fruit formation

Here are some updated photos of the Butia X cocos seedling that I have. I am still looking for more fresh Cocos pollen for him to attempt it again.

What do the palm experts here think? Is it just a Butia seedling? Is it to early to tell?