Cocoid Hybrid growth report

[PalmGuyWC]

Over the past several years Patrick Schafer has sent out various hybrids through out the USA. How about giving a report on how yours are doing in the various climates? I'd particularly like to hear how Butia X Jubaea is doing in places with hot, humid summer climates, or anything with Jubaea in it. I have 6 different hybrids growing in N. Calif. and they all are doing well. They have all been heat tested up to 109F and, at my place, down to 23F with no damage. If yours have experienced hotter or colder, let us know, and just let us know about the general health of the plants, what grows fast, what grows slow, and what size they are.

Thanks,

Dick

[freakypalmguy]

I have three of Patricks hybrids, Butia paraguayenis X Syagrus, (Butia X Jubea) X Syagrus, and Butia X Parajubea cocoides. All three were planted completely exposed and have seen a high of 108F and a low of 25F with many light frost events. None showed even the slightest bit of stress from these condition and appear to be growing year around, regardless of the temperature.

Here they are the day I received them 1.5 years ago

Here they are about two weeks ago.

Butia paraguayenis X Syagrus

(Butia X Jubea) X Syagrus

Butia X Parajubea cocoides

[Kai]

I want to join in too in this thread, but fact is I don't have a lot of cocoid hybrids yet, but desperately searching...

The only one I've got is a Butia x Jubaea seedling, which is about a year old now I think. I love to read and check pics of cocoid hybrids though, so please keep them coming!

Here's mine:

[PalmGuyWC]

To Matt and Steve,

Patrick is here today doing his thing. Our collective wisdom is that your supposed Butia X Parajubaea's are pure Butia Paraguayensis. The blue color and compact growth points towards this conclusion. Something must have gone wrong with that cross. I will bug him to replace your purchases, but B. Paraguayensis is a nice palm too. It has a very fat bulbus trunk and very heavy textured fronds. The flowers are magenta and very beautiful and the spathe is stubby, but has very thick woody walls. The one I have bloomed for the first time only about 5 years after it was planted as a small plant. I remember the first fruit was resting on the ground.

Dick

[maesy]

Dick, thanks you opened this thread.

Here is my Butia x Parajubaea a bit more than one year ago.

And here is it how it looks today.

It is not growing that fast jet, but the emerging spear is pushing two leaves at the same time. Much closer from each other than before when the palm still was in the pot.

It shows the best growth with high night time temperatures.

Marcel

[iamjv]

Interesting topic indeed! Oddly enough I've initially had trouble growing all of the hybrids I've purchased with the exception of the very first one (BxJ F2). This was probably an offspring from Merrill as I got it out of NC and had been purchased in Florida. It's been in the ground here in San Antonio for several years and has done well; seeing temps from 117F to 17F, without damage. See pic below from earlier in the year.

My second oldest hybrid is a BxJ offspring (from Patric), from the mother plant in Dick's front yard (beautiful palm) & it is finally growing well this year after suffering and hardly growing for the last few years. I moved it into an area that provides some afternoon relief and it seems to be much happier. It's still in a pot.

Third oldest hybrid is a BxP (from Patric) and it is finally coming along and is slowly growing though one of the hottest summers on record here. I nearly lost this palm it's first year here in a pot, after a second disappointing growing season I opted to plant it in the ground in an attempt to not lose it. I can't wait till this palm is similar size to Dick's BxP, for that is a fabulous looking palm.

Forth oldest hybrid is BxS (fm Tim Hopper), it has been in the ground for a couple of years now and is now really starting to grow well. Seems to like our climate here. Has seen a 106F and a low of 23F without any damage.

My latest addition is a (JxB)xJ (from Patric) which is spending it's first summer here and growing well thus far in a pot.

Jv

[iamjv]

Dick, you have similar summer heat to what I have and I wonder if you could pass on of your growing tips for your hybrids??? i.e. watering, fertilizing, etc. I would appreciate it for it doesn't seem like my hybrids are growing all that fast or don't have that hybrid vigor.... thanks. Jv

[PalmGuyWC]

Jv,

I don't know what the secret is, but it could be my soil and cooler night time temps. I have deep adobe clay which goes down much further than I can dig. I always amend my large planting holes when I plant a palm, but I'm sure the roots grow rather fast below the amended area. I usually fertilize only about twice a year with anything which is available, usually 18-18-18 or any combination that is available. We don't have the nice selection of fertilizers in N. Calif. that S. Calif, Texas and the SE has.

Adobe clay holds moisture much better than sandy or gravely soils, so I leave a hose bib running around a palm about every 2 weeks in the warmer months, and flood the soil around the palm and none at at all in the winter when we get our rain and it's quite cool. I usually allow the soil to dry out about 2 or 3 inches deep before I water. Usually once a year I scratch some amended chicken manure around young palms which is a slow release and improves the tilth of the soil around the palm. I guess I'm just lucky that I have good soil and I have a well, so I don't have to worry about water.

I have also noticed that the hybrids, and all palms for that matter, really speed up growth when planted with plenty of room for the roots to grow.

Dick

[freakypalmguy]

To Matt and Steve,

Patrick is here today doing his thing. Our collective wisdom is that your supposed Butia X Parajubaea's are pure Butia Paraguayensis. The blue color and compact growth points towards this conclusion. Something must have gone wrong with that cross. I will bug him to replace your purchases, but B. Paraguayensis is a nice palm too. It has a very fat bulbus trunk and very heavy textured fronds. The flowers are magenta and very beautiful and the spathe is stubby, but has very thick woody walls. The one I have bloomed for the first time only about 5 years after it was planted as a small plant. I remember the first fruit was resting on the ground.

Dick

That is a trait that I had not noticed in my B X P. c. , it does have VERY heavy texture to the fronds and very thick. Maybe that is the trait that says it all. All of my other hybrids have very soft fronds.

Matt

[PalmGuyWC]

Yeah Mat, I'm pretty sure your palm is a pure Butia, most likely B. paraguayensis. I know PACSOA states that para is spineless, but you have to take a lot of the descriptions with a grain of salt. The one I have has spines, but there are many different variations. PASCOA says they grow in a sandy soil, but ALL of my Butias are very happy growing in adobe clay. Sometimes young Butias don't have spines on the petioles but develop them later on. If your palm developes thorns later on, that will be the clencher.

Dick

[mjff]

Here are some of my acquisitions from Patrick:

Butia x parajubaea purchased a few months ago as a 5 gallon. It will be getting some new, smaller neighbors this winter.

Butia yatay x Syagrus in the ground since Spring 2008. Fronds eaten by goats last fall and spear pulled after the ice storm, but doing great now despite very hot and dry June/July weather.

Butia paraguayensis x Syagrus in the ground since Spring 2008. Fronds eaten by goats last fall and spear pulled after the ice storm, but doing great now despite very hot and dry June/July weather. Any suggestions on how to kill the grass growing in my rocks would be most welcome. I have sprayed it with very high concentration Roundup and Spectracide which might as well have been fertilizer for as much effect as it had.

Jubutiagrus in the ground since Spring 2008 from a liner. No damage from goats or ice, but I notice the grasshoppers have nibbled it a little. Pushing it's first pinnate frond now.

Butia paraguayensis I planted mine in a large hole (3' x 3' x 3') filled with sand. I read somewhere that in sand the trunk stays subterranean, and in other soils they get a short trunk. We'll see. Spear pulled on it from the ice storm as well, but rivaling the weeds in growth rate now.

Mule palm I got from Phil. It lost all but it's two oldest fronds after I put it in the ground from a very root bound 45 gallon (?) container (I'm pretty sure the container was all roots, no dirt). Finally pushing a new frond.

[Zeeth]

Any minute now Mark should post his show stopper Cocos X Butia

Any minute now...

[freakypalmguy]

Any minute now Mark should post his show stopper Cocos X Butia

Any minute now...

I hope so, and it better be a new pic Let's see some hybrids Mark.

[iamjv]

Thanks for the info Dick.... I figured that the cooler nights you all have plays into it and it makes sense that the deeper soils would also. Should I ever move from this house/garden, it'll be to a piece of property with deeper soils and yes I'll take my hybrids with me.... ~ Jv

[Mark Heath]

Any minute now Mark should post his show stopper Cocos X Butia

Any minute now...

I hope so, and it better be a new pic Let's see some hybrids Mark.

I will take a pic later today when i get home from work. I just got home late last night from the palm grove.

I'll take a few pics of other hybrids too!! Interesting thread and i love all the pics everyone has posted.

[Tampa Scott]

This is my palm raised from a Butiagrus seed, planted in ground late last summer. Very hairy looking leaf petiole all the way up to the first leaf. I still belive it is crossed back with a Butia. Leaves are shorter than a Butiagrus at this age.

Edited August 4, 2009 by Tampa Scott

[PalmGuyWC]

Thanks guys for all the nice hybrid photos. Keep them coming.

For those who want to see photos of my Butia X Parajubaea and the giant Butyagrus, check out TRAVEL LOG, Dick Douglas garden, Aug 2, 2009. Jason Dewees took some nice photos when he and his garden group were here last Sunday.

The Butyagrus is hard to photograph because it's crowded by a Jubaea. I see there is a fig growing on the trunk, and I don't know how it survives because it never gets any water that high up on the trunk in the warmer months.

Dick

[edbrown_III]

Mark,

I cant wait to you post it---- I owe you a visit

enclosed is a hybid I bought from patrick a while back

[edbrown_III]

Heres a Butia x S. picophylla I got from Central Florida Palm society seed bank a few years back.

A dimunitive S. coronata is near by.

Best regards

Ed

[edbrown_III]

Here is one of the first hybrids I made A Butia x S. coronata hybrid---

Just planted out this springe

I am about tapped out on photo jpgs on this message

Ed

[edbrown_III]

Heres a close up for scale

[edbrown_III]

A few more hybrids Allagoptera & Butia hybrids

[freakypalmguy]

Great hybrids Ed. Are the Butia X Allagoptera hybrids showing any of the Allagoptera parentage? It's hard to tell from the pictures.

Matt

[edbrown_III]

I need to reshoot these when the sun's lower--- You have some of the Allagoptera traits in one and something that looks like a multi trunking going on

[plamfrong]

Nothing really mind-blowing here but... I got a BxJ and a BxPc from Patrick on June 18 of this year. I marked the emerging spears and both have grown more in the last two weeks than in the previous four. No doubt our major heat wave had something to do with it but also I think they are putting down more roots in the larger pots I potted them into, as my growing regime seems to support strong root growth.

[Mark Heath]

I was able to snap a quick just before we got hammered by a strong thunderstorm. Here is an

updated pic of my hopefully Butia X Cocos.N.

Also, when i was at the palm grove i noticed an oddball one. Next time i'm there i'll take a pic.

[Mark Heath]

Next time i'll use something for scale and hopefully it won't be dark due to overhead thunderstorms! It's better to

have someone holding the fronds open to truly get the idea of how wide they are. I have been baby-ing the heck out

of it to promote growth.

[PalmGuyWC]

Mark,

It still looks very Coconutty to me. Nice picture.

Dick

[PalmGuyWC]

Mark,

It still looks very Coconutty to me. Nice picture.

Dick

[ErikSJI]

I was able to snap a quick just before we got hammered by a strong thunderstorm. Here is an

updated pic of my hopefully Butia X Cocos.N.

Also, when i was at the palm grove i noticed an oddball one. Next time i'm there i'll take a pic.

Here is an updated photo of the Butia X Cocos seedling I have also posted in another thread.

[freakypalmguy]

Mark,

It still looks very Coconutty to me. Nice picture.

Dick

It sure does. Look forward to seeing more pics Mark and with something for scale like you mentioned.

Matt

[freakypalmguy]

I was able to snap a quick just before we got hammered by a strong thunderstorm. Here is an

updated pic of my hopefully Butia X Cocos.N.

Also, when i was at the palm grove i noticed an oddball one. Next time i'm there i'll take a pic.

Here is an updated photo of the Butia X Cocos seedling I have also posted in another thread.

Looks healthy Erik, it will be interesting to see your seedling progress.

Matt

[PalmGuyWC]

Don't ask because I can't tell yet........but there may be some exciting new Cocoid hybrids in the works. It will probably be next year before it's known if they materalize. Right now they are growing seeds half developed. It's to early to tell if the seeds will be viable.

Dick

[ricky]

Don't ask because I can't tell yet........but there may be some exciting new Cocoid hybrids in the works. It will probably be next year before it's known if they materalize. Right now they are growing seeds half developed. It's to early to tell if the seeds will be viable.

Dick

or dick you cant just leave us hanging like that at least give us an idea please i love the cocoid hybrids i and iv collected 9 so far i will try and get some pics over the weekend i believe these hybrids offer the largest selection of feather leaf palms for the UK also just wondering do you have a full list of the hybrids Patrick as done so far

regards ricky

[PalmGuyWC]

Ricky,

It would be premature for me to announce any new hybrids because the developing fruit/seeds aren't mature yet, and it's only speculation if they will be viable. I made a list last year of Patrick's hybrids, and it's posted here somewhere, but I can't find it. With the new ones coming along, I'll have to revise the list. Last count, seems there was about a dozen cocoid hybrids, but there should be some new ones soon.

Dick

[Matt N- Dallas]

Ricky,

It would be premature for me to announce any new hybrids because the developing fruit/seeds aren't mature yet, and it's only speculation if they will be viable. I made a list last year of Patrick's hybrids, and it's posted here somewhere, but I can't find it. With the new ones coming along, I'll have to revise the list. Last count, seems there was about a dozen cocoid hybrids, but there should be some new ones soon.

Dick

Here is a list you posted last year or the year before:

In the list below, the capitalized names are the mother plant and the one that produced the seeds. Those that are followed by a question mark, are the ones Patrick is not sure of yet. They are either seeds that have recently germinated, or of small seedlings. It takes about 3 years before the adult characteristics began to show and to determine if it's a true hybrid.

JUBAEA........

Syagrus romanzoffiana

Butia

Parajubaea cocoides

Allagoptera (Several germinated, but died off and only two remain).

Butia X Jubaea

BUTIA.......

Syagrus romanzoffiana

Parajubaea cocoides

Parajubaea torallyi V torallyi (?)

Syagrus cearensis (?)

SYAGRUS......

Butia X Jubaea

Parajubaea cocoides (?)

Butia (?)

BUTIA X JUBAEA.......

Syagrus

Butia

Jubaea

PARAJUBAEA COCOIDES

Jubaea (?)

Butia (?)

This is an amazing number of new cold hardy (heat tolerant)? hybrids, with other possibilities yet to be determined. Soon there will be a lot of newly introduced, exotic Syagrus to be tried once they come into bloom, such as S. botryophora and others. I'd still like to see an attempt to cross S. amara with either a Butia or Jubaea, but the pollen is very hard to obtain as it is with most of the tall Syagrus.

I'll keep you posted on the progress of these hybrids and some pictures soon. It should be pointed out that reverse crosses often look different. A Syagrus X (Butia X Jubaea) might have a different apperance from a (Butia X Jubaea) X Syagrus.

[ricky]

no problems Dick and Matt thanks for the list

(It should be pointed out that reverse crosses often look different. A Syagrus X (Butia X Jubaea) might have a different appearance from a (Butia X Jubaea) X Syagrus.)

i can totally agree with that iv got both crosses mentioned and the look nothing alike i just need to find the camera charger and i will upload photos

ricky

[plamfrong]

Here is a list you posted last year or the year before:

In the list below, the capitalized names are the mother plant and the one that produced the seeds. Those that are followed by a question mark, are the ones Patrick is not sure of yet. They are either seeds that have recently germinated, or of small seedlings. It takes about 3 years before the adult characteristics began to show and to determine if it's a true hybrid.

JUBAEA........

Syagrus romanzoffiana

Butia

Parajubaea cocoides

Allagoptera (Several germinated, but died off and only two remain).

Butia X Jubaea

BUTIA.......

Syagrus romanzoffiana

Parajubaea cocoides

Parajubaea torallyi V torallyi (?)

Syagrus cearensis (?)

SYAGRUS......

Butia X Jubaea

Parajubaea cocoides (?)

Butia (?)

BUTIA X JUBAEA.......

Syagrus

Butia

Jubaea

PARAJUBAEA COCOIDES

Jubaea (?)

Butia (?)

This is an amazing number of new cold hardy (heat tolerant)? hybrids, with other possibilities yet to be determined. Soon there will be a lot of newly introduced, exotic Syagrus to be tried once they come into bloom, such as S. botryophora and others. I'd still like to see an attempt to cross S. amara with either a Butia or Jubaea, but the pollen is very hard to obtain as it is with most of the tall Syagrus.

I'll keep you posted on the progress of these hybrids and some pictures soon. It should be pointed out that reverse crosses often look different. A Syagrus X (Butia X Jubaea) might have a different apperance from a (Butia X Jubaea) X Syagrus.

Great list and pretty much agrees with the notes I have taken from all these discussions. Patrick sent me a BxJ so unless there is a mixup, that would be one to add to the list.

Ian

[PalmGuyWC]

There is not much new to report on the hybridization front in Walnut Creek, except we are finally getting a "normal" summer with days in the upper 80's and 90's, nights in the low 60's. Most of the palms have been pollinated and the fruit is at varying sizes. Most should be ripe in another 2 or 3 months. As I stated earlier, there should be some interesting new hybrids.

Dick

[ricky]

OK sorry for the delay but here's a few of my hybrids i will tray and get pics of the others soon so here goes

butia odorata x syagrus rom

butia compacta

jubaea x butia x butia

butia capitata x syagrus rom

the other hybrids iv got are

jubaea x butia

butia x jubaea

syagrus x butia x jubaea

butia x jubaea x syagrus

butia x parajubaea cocoides

butia paraguayensis x syagrus rom

ricky