Trachycarpus fortunei with round leaves (T.fortunei Winsan)

[garrytsen]

T.fortunei Winsan is not so commonly seen as regular T.fortunei and it happens to develop round leaves natually and I am not sure if it is an independent species or a variant one.What makes them special is that they have full round leave with segments making a full round shape as compared to the 1/2 or 3/4 shape seen in other varieties. I ran into some seedlings and adult trees among others ,but failed to obtain any seeds because no palms bear seeds untill this year. It is beautiful and elegant no matter what it really is.

[simona]

It really is beautiful!

[HKO2008]

Dear Garrytsen,

you are sitting on some Trachycarpus gold, when you are able to collect seed of this species. I mean, you are in the middle of Trachycarpus country. Are there other varieties or species of Trachycarpus you can get your hands on?

I read about Trachycarpus Winsan, Tesan, Chusan, Misan... you-name-it-san. All very interesting stuff about these varieties of Fortunei.

There is an online nursery in China selling these varieties, Coldplant China Or are you the owner of that nursery?

For our country, the Netherlands, Trachycarpus offers the best species, since most like cool climates. Fortunei, ssp. Nainital, Princeps, ssp. Nova (green princeps), Manipur, Oreophilus, Wagnerianus, Martianus 'Nepal', you name it.

Also, i am sure that there are a lot more Trachycarpus species, subspecies and varieties in China, then we are currently aware of or that we know of. Pleas keep on posting about these varieties, since you at least got my attention.

Henri

Edited November 20, 2008 by HKO2008

[tjwalters]

Hey! I HAVE one of those! (I actually didn't realize this was out of the ordinary.) The leaves on mine, though, span about 370 degrees and overlap, creating a full circle and then some!

I wonder if this could be an environmental effect - perhaps showing up on shade-grown specimens. Thoughts?

Ah...found the pictures (it was potted and in the garage for the winter, so doesn't look too good):

[buffy]

Hey! I HAVE one of those! (I actually didn't realize this was out of the ordinary.) The leaves on mine, though, span about 370 degrees and overlap, creating a full circle and then some!

Trachycarpus never really interested me, but this one certainly does. TJ, are you producing seed? If not, where did you acquire this?

[PalmGuyWC]

Hey everyone!

Check out Coldplant China. They have some really neat plants. Has anyone from the USA ordered from them? I wonder if the USDA would allow plants to be shipped to the US from China. They have T. princeps and some other goodies.

Dick

[tjwalters]

Trachycarpus never really interested me, but this one certainly does. TJ, are you producing seed? If not, where did you acquire this?

I have had it for years, but don't remember from where it came. I had it in a big pot, but put it into the ground this spring as it got too big to move in and out of the garage. I don't even know if it's male or female - perhaps I will find out one day.

[Tyrone]

I think I have one of these too. I often thought it didn't look like a normal T fortunei and many would ask what it was. Now that you mention the full round leaf, that's the difference. Do you need male and female plants to get viable seed of this species??

Best regards

Tyrone

[HKO2008]

Dear Dick,

i suspect Garry to be involved in Coldplant China. I know there is some controversy about the different subspecies of Fortunei as presented on Coldplant. However, i do find them interesting, because somehow the subspecies seem to be stable variants. Sure, you have robust trunked Fortunei in the Netherlands and Belgium that look like variety Tesan, but those are not a stable form, i.e. not all offspring of those palms show the Tesan characteristics. I saw seedlings of variety Tesan and they all have the Tesan characteristics (such as the more compact and hard leaf form).

Same goes for the 'Winsan' from TJ. It looks like a 'Winsan', but the form from TJ i suspect to be not stable. That means that offspring of that tree does not automatically have the Winsan-look. Fortunei is highly variable anyway.

Henri

Edited November 20, 2008 by HKO2008

[kristof p]

Henri,

i think Garry is coldplant . some people have had those round leaved Trachycarpus out of seeds of a regular fortunei so it is definitely a variation of fortunei. it is a very nice variation and i hope the offsprings will look like like the parent plant and that it is a stable variation like wagnerianus is.

i've seen those round leaved fortuneis also on pictures of fortuneis in france and a few people here in Belguim and the netherlands also have one.

I'm also interested in the other variations, it never seems to stop with fortunei variations .

[ghar41]

Hey cool, thanks for posting. I have one of these, not sure where it came from, but as T. fortunei's go, I found it interesting. I planted it in a wind protected area, and it looks better, I think.

[ghar41]

The Winsan reminds me of other Trachy's I have. T. martianus (Khasa Hills variety) on the left, is similar as are many of the leaves of Trachycarpus latisectus (right).

[Neofolis]

The normal form of fortunei produces the occasional full circle leaf as well, which may suggest these are varieties rather than distinct species.

[garrytsen]

The normal form of fortunei produces the occasional full circle leaf as well, which may suggest these are varieties rather than distinct species.

Interesting questions are put forward here. The reason why we give a group of certain plants a new name is that they share a common feature which is different from other species or sub-species so that we can lable plants in an easier way.

Since it is the first year to get some seeds, I got no idea if this speical feature of round leaves will pass down to the next genation as they got it before. Although some T.fortunei have 1-2 leaves showing the same feature, but at least nowhere near T.fortunei Winsan.It is like the difference of the white powder we see in T.fortunei and T.princeps as below .The differnce is apparent. Can we say now say T.princeps is not a distinct species or a sbub -variety because some regular T.fortunei also do have very white powder underneath the leaves, though not close to the degree of T.princeps ? It's hard to give a definate answer.

Whether T.fortunei Winsan is an independent species or sub species or variety is not important and what matters is that they are special and nice. Time will tell

[kristof p]

i find there is much differance between a T. princeps and T. fortunei. i never saw a princeps growing out of a fortunei seed and fortuneis with whitish undersides still look verry differant than a princeps.

i think T. fortunei is highly variable and so far the only stable (though not a 100%) variant is T. wagnerianus.

it would be great if those round leaved fortunei produce round leaved ofsprings but they can be grown out of a regular fortunei seed...

"Whether T.fortunei Winsan is an independent species or sub species or variety is not important and what matters is that they are special and nice"...

i totaly agree!

[kristof p]

garrytsen,

here is a picture of one of my fortuneis with very white undersides.

the second picture is another Trachycarpus which looks very differant than a "normal" fortunei it has much les leaflets and a very thin trunk. growth rate is also very slow (1/1.5 leaf a year).

i have another fortunei which looks differant, it has very stiff leaves and the leaflets are aranged mostly in groups of tree. i will post a picture of this one when i have the time to take a picture of it....

[fdrc65]

Hi

This is my Fortunei in Northern Italy i'ts not so rounded yet

it's a group of female,

the males are 20 meters far

[Tyrone]

Found this thread and thought I'd bump it along. My palm that I pictured in another thread to me looks like T fortunei var winsan. I didn't really appreciate all the variations before, but this actually is a beautiful genus.

Best regards

Tyrone

[garrytsen]

Tyrone,

Yes Your Trachycarpus is surely an interesting specimen with bit of white underside and cool round leave, the mix of princeps and winsan.

Trachycarpus is really a variable species .

The seeds of Winsan were originally and tentatively collected for their cute full leaves after we searched for years .Not till 2008 did we collect some on one palm growing fully in the sun contrary to the normal belief that the circular leaves are an expression of shade response.

But much to my big surprise, all the current results demonstrate that Winsan are a variegated variety with differences from the latter,though the young seedlings of less than 2 years old from mother winsan with 100% round leaves have shown 3/4 circular leaves and few round ones so far, not all as fully round as the mother palms in general,possibly due to being young or the interference of T.fortunei nearby.Some more time is needed to observe.

Winsan seedlings we are trying out are growing as amazingly fast as Nova, 10-14cm trunk compared to 10-15cm and 4-5 cm in nova and T.fortunei(Tesan form)respectively of the same age from late 2008 .This is the first time I have seen Trachycarpus other than Nova show such dramatic growth vigor and speed. The seedlings are robust and vigorous like Nova, with all their parts larger than T.fortunei, but the leaflets are irregularly arranged more like T.fortunei in term of leaflet width and spacing and the seedlings leaves are wider across than nova ,fitting T.fortunei category and not so easily bending as Nova.

Plus,the most confusing thing is the ridge number of Winsan's first strap leaf ranges from 3,4,5 to 6 as opposed to stable 4 ridges of T.fortunei, a phenomenon difficult to explain.. It sounds really crazy and absolutely confusing to me.

The following is the result of my observation.

[garrytsen]

Note the interesting varying ridge number of Winsan's first strap leaf

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Bump, call for any other winsan growers, I've got a bunch of these, it seems like an amazing trachy, 360 degree leaves, looks like the radiata for cooler climates!