Sabal Havanensis ???

[Pivi]

Hi guys!

Has any of you ever heard of sabal havanensis?

That name is not used anymore (or is "unaplaced").

Do you know which palm this is? Some other name, officilan name for havanensis?

Thanks

Here's two links

http://www.dipbot.unict.it/orto/0749-1.html

http://www.dipbot.unict.it/orto/0749-1.html

[Scott Zona]

Sabal havanensis is a name that first appeared in the literature in 1853. Unfortunately, it was never properly described nor was the name linked to any specimen in a museum, so we can never be sure what the author was talking about when he used that name. Hence the name is "unplaced," which is to say, we don't know what to do with it.

[Pivi]

Thanks Scott!

So we don't know what palm he's talking about?

No more information?

How did they name the palm on the picture if they didn't know what it was?

I ask that because there is one in Zagreb botanical garden in croatia...and no information about this palm except it's called sabal havanensis.

Here are the pictures from the ones in croatia.

Edited June 16, 2008 by Pivi

[Pivi]

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[PalmGuyWC]

From the pictures, it appears to be a Sabal minor to me. No reason why they couldn't be in Cuba. I wonder if S. Miamiensis a valid species also.

Dick

[Turtile]

It looks like a tropical Sabal to me rather than Sabal minor. Sabal minor normally doesn't seed that low and the seeds look larger than usually. The trunk also seems to be creeping.

[galveston1602]

I agree, I dont know what these palms are but the seeds dont seem to be on a long enough stem and they seem large. I wonder if this is just some natural cross. of course, im NOT an expert

[merrill]

Hi, Turtile and Galveston:

Not only do I agree w/ Scott and Turtile, but this palm has a fleshier consistency than the minors we have in FL, at least. Tis a puzzle.

Hi, Pivi: Many TX for bringing this palm to our attention. Are you selling seed? If so, I'd be interested.

Best Wishes, merrill

[Kris]

Dear Peter

lovely find & the still of that palm in post no.5 the first one is my favouriate...even iam a fan of the sabal's but since iam growing the S.Riverside,S.palmetto,S.mexicana & S.minor.i have concentrated less on other sabals...

thanks for those lovely stills,

love,

Kris

[Pivi]

Hi, Pivi: Many TX for bringing this palm to our attention. Are you selling seed? If so, I'd be interested.

Best Wishes, merrill

Thanks for reply everyone.

No Merrill, these are pictures from croatian palm forum and these palms are located in Croatian botanical garden in Zagreb, Croatia.

[PalmGuyWC]

I noted that the fruit was larger, but it could just be that it's from a different population from those found in the USA. Some Sabal minors do creep, and the fronds are flat like many S. minors......not costapalmate. Also the bloom spike grows straight up. On my S. minors the infrutescence will bend towards the ground with the weight of the fruit, but the inflorescences grow straight up, until they are weighted by the fruit.

Dick

[Rusty on Pine Is.]

Dick, you are probably on to something there.....i do notice that in some of the pics the leaflets seem to be apically cleft, and although the division may be because of the slight browning of the tip, i didn't think minors exhibited that trait.....or that the leaves of minors are as undivided.

No matter what it is or its true lineage, i sure would like to have one.

Rusty

[Henoh]

Here are new photos of Sabal "havanensis"??? from botanical garden in Zagreb, Croatia.

It has a stalk with flowers on it.

[Henoh]

[Ken Johnson]

See that split in the center of the leaf in the first picture in post #16? That is a dead ringer for minor.

[Henoh]

Ken,

thank you for solving the "mystery" about S. "havanensis"

[SubTropicRay]

You've got to love these location based species names i.e. himalayana, miamiensis, havanensis. I've always wondered if the are true forms or just slight genetic differences that do not warrant different taxanomic classification.

[Kris]

See that split in the center of the leaf in the first picture in post #16? That is a dead ringer for minor.

Dear Ken

you are an palm expert !

love,

Kris

[Pivi]

some still don't beleive it's minor...

[Ken Johnson]

Thats OK Pivi They can call it what ever they want. Dammit!

[Pivi]

you're wright...that's their problem...

They can continue this "agony" for 100 years.

On our local forum some REALLY want to know what this palms is.

And now, whatever you say, like "it's minor" they still won't believe it.

I don't know from whom are they waiting for identification that they will accept as true.

IPS official stand?

[iamjv]

I happen to have a sabal very similar to this one, although it was sold to me as an "unknown" species, when I bought it in seedling stage. It's been in the ground 10 yrs now and has grown very slowly like a minor, it has started to develop a minor-looking trunk and yes has the split frond. Yet the older fronds and petioles on mine get a tinge of blueness to them as they age and the fronds are very stiff. One of the reasons I don't think it's a full fledged minor is it was frost burnt at 17F. Nearly 50% of the fronds browned out after the freeze. Some years later I came across a variant of the sabal minor called the Tamaulipas species. Yucca Do nursery still has these for sale and they seem to be minors on steroids with larger fronds, and a nice blue tinge to the fronds. If you ever visit the nursery and gardens, you'll see large sized plants in the ground that are stunning. I believe these come from a semi-tropical location in Mexico if memory serves me... anyhow, my thoughts are that I just might have one of these Tamaulipas varieties and the one picuted by Pivi may be also. I did happen to buy a couple of the Tamaulipas palms from Yucca Do and they have only been in the ground a couple of years but the fronds are already turning blue... Jv

[The Germinator]

some still don't beleive it's minor...

The big seed makes me think of domingensis. Is the seed on minor big or small.

[Pivi]

i don't think it's havanensis. As much as i know it's old but it's not forming trunk and it doesn't hvae costapalmate leaves like domingensis.

[Ken Johnson]

I will call the palm god ZORK to decend on your island and place an official plaque stating that the name must remain a secret so that everyone can stop worring and get back to planting more!

[Pivi]

this palm is not on my island. it's 250 miles north.

Edited July 19, 2008 by Pivi

[Pivi]

i don't think it's havanensis. As much as i know it's old but it's not forming trunk and it doesn't hvae costapalmate leaves like domingensis.

ups. i meant to say i don't think it's domingensis.

[Tala]

in a way this is easy, "havanensis" does not exist, there is no such animal. I see about ten things that tell me its a minor, and probably the "louisiana" ecotype. I can list them if necessary but I've got a mow to lawn.

[Mark_NoVA]

That would be plausible logistically--there used to be a lot of contact between New Orleans and Havana. Accounts of the origins of several types of Cuban music and New Orleans Jazz mention that the musicians frequently went back and forth on a ferry between the two places.

in a way this is easy, "havanensis" does not exist, there is no such animal. I see about ten things that tell me its a minor, and probably the "louisiana" ecotype. I can list them if necessary but I've got a mow to lawn.