Trachycarpus trials and tribulations

[Nigel]

Try to identify these Trachys, hopefully a bit easier than last time.

[Nigel]

More

[Nigel]

more

Final clue, they are all different.

[M@ximus]

Ciao  Nigel!!

My  guess:

1) Fortunei

[M@ximus]

Ciao Nigel!!

My  guess:

1) Fortunei

2)latisecticus

3)princeps

4)oreophilus

5)Princeps  green

6)Martianus kh

7)Wagnerianus

8)Manipur

9)Martianus n.

10)Takagii

11)takil

I  hope  to  guess  one!

Ciao M@x

[Nigel]

(M@ximus @ Sep. 26 2007,13:25)

QUOTE

I  hope  to  guess  one!

Ciao M@x

Max, You got 3.......... !!

[M@ximus]

hey  Nigel!

Could  you  tell  me   wich  ones I  have  guess??

Ciao  M@x

[Nigel]

(M@ximus @ Sep. 28 2007,00:57)

QUOTE

hey  Nigel!

Could  you  tell  me   wich  ones I  have  guess??

Ciao  M@x

Max, you got 3,4 and 7. See if you can sort out the rest.

Unfortunately you seem to be the only person interested , I had hoped for a better response but it seems cold hardy palms are not of interest on this board, its more interesting to debate the Palapa than talk about palms.

[Kathryn]

People who don’t know palms think they all look alike. Some don’t even notice the two different leaf structures – pinnate and palmate.

When it comes to Trachycarpus, I can identify fortunei from other genera, but I don’t know squat about the various Trachycarpus species. I’m the same with a lot of the cold sensitive palms in south Florida.

Nigel – Once everyone has finished guessing, can you give me some pointers on how to tell these apart?

[Kelern]

Hello Nigel,

Pretty hard to find out! my guess:

1 takill

2 nanus

3 princeps (as mentioned)

4 oreophyllus (as mentioned)

5 latisectus

6 geminsectus

7 wagnerianus (as mentioned)

8 green princeps (nova)

9 martianus from nepal

10 fortunei

11 martianus from Khasia hills

[PalmGuyWC]

Awww, Nigel, I've never even seen some of those that you have, and I wouldn't hazzard a guess....except for Wagnerianus, and Princeps. M@xamus mentions Takagii. I wonder if that is one you have? I have a couple that I bought at Jungle Music, but I can't find any information on them. Mine have grown rather fast, but they closely resemble fortunei except they are deeply cut right back to the hastula, and they are somewhat glaucious on the underside of the fronds. I suspect they are just another form of fortunei because of their speed of growth. I was told they would be dwarf palms, but so far, I kind of doubt it.

I have martianus, latisecticus, and nanna, all very slow growing, with nanna being the slowest. I was delighted to be given a T. princeps this summer, and it's grown at a fair rate. I think this will prove to be a stunning palm. I will be curious to see how much cold they can take......as well as all the others that you have.

I have found T. martianus not to be particularly cold hardy, but they seem to resist cold more as they grow up.  Mine took 23F (-5C) last winter with no damage.  In fact, none of my Trachs. were damaged last winter.

Thanks for the pictures. It will be interesting to see what they look like in 2 or 3 years from now.

Dick

[Nigel]

(Kelern @ Sep. 28 2007,08:42)

QUOTE

Hello Nigel,

Pretty hard to find out! my guess:

1 takill

2 nanus

3 princeps (as mentioned)

4 oreophyllus (as mentioned)

5 latisectus

6 geminsectus

7 wagnerianus (as mentioned)

8 green princeps (nova)

9 martianus from nepal

10 fortunei

11 martianus from Khasia hills

You got the first 5 correct then it went horribly wrong....

The takil I bought for myself as a speculative buy some 3 years ago. I visited a nursery and saw they had takils which looked nothing like the Naini Tal palms previously sold as takil. They were stood next to fortunei and were clearly very different.

The takil has grown slowly, but has much in common with both T oreophilus and manipur, so I am now pretty confident it was genuine.

All of these species have a very thick shiny and heavy light green leaf that is leathery and stiff to touch.

Trachycarpus takil will become THE trachy of the future in my opinion.

[M@ximus]

First  5  are  Ok, and  7  is  Wagnerianus!!

So  my  new  guess:

6)  Princeps green

8)  Takagii

9) Martianus  kh

10) wag  x fortunei

11) Manipur

Traky  are  my  favourite  palms,so ,

I  hope  one  is correct  or  I  will  pass  to  Phoenix   !

Ciao  M@x

[www.dadluvsu.com]

Awwww, Nigel, don't get your panties in a bunch!  I don't live in an area where I can grow cold hardy palms...  I have ZERO knowledge simply because I can't grow these palms!  I would comment but it would only show my ignorance!    But I am definetly in agreement, the palapa conversation is getting old...

[iwan]

Nice collection Nigel,

I currently have Trachycarpus martianus, nanus, sp Naga Hills,

wagnerianus, princeps and of course fortunei.  Look forward to adding a few more.

[M@ximus]

IMO, This  palms  are  underestimated!!

I'm  growing  a lot  of palms , but  traky  are always  first   on  request  of  info by friends

Them look  a  real  beauty just  keeping   clean  the  trunk  ,  and  I  have  to  admit, that  this  palms  , move  forward, in  my  personal ranking .

But  Nigel , I  can't  resist ,so,   please,  give  me  the  answer

         Ciao M@x

[Nigel]

(M@ximus @ Sep. 28 2007,10:35)

QUOTE

First  5  are  Ok, and  7  is  Wagnerianus!!

So  my  new  guess:

6)  Princeps green

8)  Takagii

9) Martianus  kh

10) wag  x fortunei

11) Manipur

Traky  are  my  favourite  palms,so ,

I  hope  one  is correct  or  I  will  pass  to  Phoenix   !

Ciao  M@x

Max, 8,9,11,correct, only 8 and 10 to find now.

I had hoped in this thread to show that even as small plants the genus is very different amongst species.

Takil,Oreophilus and Manipur are BIG trachys, slower growing, but fabulous plants.

[www.dadluvsu.com]

I like # 3  the T. princeps very cool white outline on the leaf!

[PalmGuyWC]

Robert,

Do you have more than one T. princeps? I only have one small one, and I know of another guy that has one in N. Calif. I'm hoping mine will be a female, and that I'll still be around when it blooms. When those babies start blooming we will have to make sure they get pollinated so we can spread some seeds around.

Does anyone else in N. Calif have any? I think it's going to be a beautiful palm. Mine is silver on the bottom side of the fronds, and even the petioles are glaucious and nice silver margins on the top of the fronds.

I wonder if anyone has one of any size in cultivation? Mine is only a 1 gal size.

Dick

[PalmGuyWC]

Nigel, or anyone,

Tell me what you know of T. takagii, and is it a sport or what?

Dick

[M@ximus]

(PalmGuyWC @ Sep. 28 2007,20:04)

QUOTE

Nigel, or anyone,

Tell me what you know of T. takagii, and is it a sport or what?

Dick

Sorry  Dick!!

Takagii   is  Hybrid  between   Fortunei and  wagnerianus

Viceversa  is  simplycalled    wagnerianus   x fortunei

Ciao  M@x

[Paul S]

I personally feel that many of the trachycarpus species are so variable it is hard to tell them apart other than the label in the pot.  I have a fortunei that keys out in every way to be a takil (but can't possibly be), seen martianus that look identical to latisectus... I really believe you need an active imagination to see the differences sometimes.  Especially as whatever plants we, as individuals, can observe and study are only a tiny snapshot of the variability that will be found in huge populations.

And, playing Devil's advocate for a minute, if Kew are correct in saying that wagnerianus doesn't exist other than as a cultivar of fortunei, how can x takagii be a valid hybrid name?  

[PalmGuyWC]

Owwwwwwww!!!

M@X....you mean to say takagii is nothing more than a wag X fortunei cross? Then I've been ripped off, as I pull up hundreds of those as seedlings every spring under the mother plants! They are weeds here! Unfortunately, my T. Wags are growing close to T. fortuneis and they readily cross pollinate. Grown up the palms look like T. fortuneis to me. Bad!!! Darn, and I've been growing up two of those for about 3 years. Out of the ground they are coming!!

Out of bad will come good. Two prime spots for my new T. Princeps and T. nanus.

Dick

[M@ximus]

(PalmGuyWC @ Sep. 28 2007,22:02)

QUOTE

Owwwwwwww!!!

M@X....you mean to say takagii is nothing more than a wag X fortunei cross? Then I've been ripped off, as I pull up hundreds of those as seedlings every spring under the mother plants! They are weeds here! Unfortunately, my T. Wags are growing close to T. fortuneis and they readily cross pollinate. Grown up the palms look like T. fortuneis to me. Bad!!! Darn, and I've been growing up two of those for about 3 years. Out of the ground they are coming!!

Out of bad will come good. Two prime spots for my new T. Princeps and T. nanus.

Dick

Dick!

For  what  I  know, Takagii   is  an  Hybrid   where  the fortunei  is the  female plant

The  cross  where  the  wagnerianus  is  the  female  plant  is  called   Wag x fortunei

But  someone could  correct  me!!

                M@x

[Nigel]

(M@ximus @ Sep. 28 2007,16:09)

QUOTE

Dick!

For  what  I  know, Takagii   is  an  Hybrid   where  the fortunei  is the  female plant

The  cross  where  the  wagnerianus  is  the  female  plant  is  called   Wag x fortunei

But  someone could  correct  me!!

                M@x

Max I think its the wagxfortunei but we all agree its the hybrid to produce a palm with intermediate leaf. The name was given by a japanese guy who prodcued it.

Paul, I have always believed wagnerianus to be the product of selection in Japan where over centuries the fortuneis with smallest stiffest leaves have been selected and grown for the gardens there. The palm does not exist in the wild and came out of japan where it is no native plant . The fact that you can grow 1,000 waggie seeds that have been pollinated ONLY with pure waggie pollen and find the odd fortunei popping up between ,which i believe happens with selection ( the more generations that pass the lower the number poppping up becomes) .

Also, the reason your fortunei looks like takil  is because the original takil described by Gibbons and Spanner was not a takil.

When the real takil detail and images are published soon, people will realise what an awesome palm this is.

[ghar41]

I'm getting in here late but I grow many Trachy's.  Thing is Im not anywhere near guessing these...you all are way more skilled at ID's on these than I am!  Especially the little ones.  

Thing is, with Trachy's, be carefull in the ID of a plant based on its leaf.  Exposure to WIND (or lack of it) can make for some interesting leaves not to mention their propensity to grow radical fans.

Example: Anyone care to guess this Trachy?

[ghar41]

You guessed it...just a fortunei.

Here are some more to share.  Thanks goes to Nigel for the Trachycarpus thread.

This beauty is T. marianus (Nepal)

[ghar41]

My son hiding under an especially beautiful marianus (Nepal)

[ghar41]

T. martianus (Khasa Hills) is my current favorite.

[ghar41]

Khasa Hills

[ghar41]

Nigel, great to hear there are Takil growers out there!  This is a MONSTER palm...this is my son next to a "seedling."  This palm already has 4 FOOT long petioles!

[ghar41]

The massive leaf of takil

[ghar41]

My latisectus and oreophilus seem to always be waiting for cooler weather.

[ghar41]

Everyone's favorite T. wagnerianus.  I have a 6 footer and an 18 footer.

[ghar41]

Up the trunk......

Thanks again for the Trachy talk!

[iwan]

(PalmGuyWC @ Sep. 28 2007,10:57)

QUOTE

Robert,

Do you have more than one T. princeps? I only have one small one, and I know of another guy that has one in N. Calif. I'm hoping mine will be a female, and that I'll still be around when it blooms.

Dick,

I just picked up 3, three leaf seedlings last weekend, so I suspect it will be a long time before mine flower.

[iwan]

(ghar41 @ Sep. 28 2007,17:36)

QUOTE

Khasa Hills

Nice Glenn,

This is one of my favorites.  Still have a few species and varieties to add to my collection.

[Nigel]

Glen,

your photos highlight beautifully the characteristic leaf differences between martinus nepal and khasia forms, I dont think anybody could have done it better. Here martianus and latisectus are impossible to grow in that condition due to wind and winters which reach -6C, the point where they  fry, and summers lacking heat as martianus need more heat than the fortunei/takil group.

All you need now is a latisectus to complete your martianus group.

I also have some bad news for you, your takil is not a takil, it is from one of the Naini Tal palms mistakenly sold as takil from which 99% of the seed has come. Yes its a big Trachy , very similar to fortunei but also distinct in its own form.  A beautiful big Trachy but not a takil.

I think you have the biggest waggie I ever saw !

[PalmGuyWC]

Nigel,

I have 3 Trachs. that I grew from seeds. The seeds came from N. India and were labeled T. martianus. As they grew it was obvious they were not T. martianus. When Tobias was here this spring, he had a look at them and said they were another form or T. fortunei. Whatever they are, they are much nicer looking than the typical T. fortunei. The leafletts are wider and the undersides of the fronds are slightly glaucious, and they are more of a pale green than the typical T. fortunei. It's hard to describe but the fronds bend down about mid way and they are very gracefull. They also don't brown tip in the summer as do some of my T. fortuneis.

I have two male plants and one female, but unfortunatelly they are planted on opposite sides of my garden and the female is nessled among some male fortuneis and Wagnerianus. I missed pollinating them this year, but I'll shield the female flowers next year and try to hand pollinate them. I think this form is superior enough, that they are worth preserving.

Dick

[Tyrone]

Well Nigel, why don't you tell us what all of the pics are. I for one would like to know what they are. Coming from a warmer climate where the palm choices are much more, Trachycarpus is much overlooked. If I lived in a cooler climate I think I'd learn a bit more about this genus. The fact that people in England are growing them says a lot about this amazing genus. I'm only growing fortunei and a waggie. Although my fortunei seems to have big leaves and a hint of of silver underneath with drooping tips. Should fortunei get that.

The pics of T martianus are beautiful.

I think Trachycarpus is just as hard to ID as Pritchardia.

regards

Tyrone