The Judean Date Palm

[M@ximus]

Ciao  Reuven!

The  politicians  are  the  same  everywhere!

Is  always  a  problem  to  understand  them point  of wiew!!

Anyway,  My  question:  can  you  post  an  address

where  to  send  some  money  for help  this  reserch?

I think  a lot  of  us  can  give  a  small  contribute,  and  you know,  small+small+small ,  become  big!!

Or  please   let  me know  in  some  way!

Happy  Sunday   and  all  the  best   M@x

[malcthomas]

"As for salt, the Romans would never plow-in salt on large extension because it was too costly in terms of time and work. "

From

Wikipedia

The fall of Carthage was at the end of the third Punic War in 146 BC. In spite of the initial devastating Roman naval losses at the beginning of the series of conflicts and Rome's recovery from the brink of defeat after the terror of a 15-year occupation of much of Italy by Hannibal, the end of the series of wars resulted in the end of Carthaginian power and the complete destruction of the city by Scipio Aemilianus. The Romans pulled the Phoenician warships out into the harbor and burned them before the city, and went from house to house, slaughtering and enslaving the people. The city was set ablaze, and in this way was razed with only ruins and rubble to field the aftermath.

[edit] Roman Carthage

There is a widespread notion that the Carthaginian farmland was salted to ensure that no crops could be grown there. Although such an action would have been logically feasible, this claim has been alleged to have originated in the 20th century.[13]

[rubyz]

(M@ximus @ Apr. 29 2007,08:47)

QUOTE

My  question:  can  you  post  an  address

where  to  send  some  money  for help  this  reserch?

I think  a lot  of  us  can  give  a  small  contribute,  and  you know,  small+small+small ,  become  big!!

Or  please   let  me know  in  some  way!

Happy  Sunday   and  all  the  best   M@x

Ciao M@x!

Thanks for your generous offer. I'll have to talk with Dr. Sallon about that, since she heads the project. She has gone abroad for the next two weeks, so I will have to contact her then.

[Alberto]

(RRONNIE @ Apr. 27 2007,20:10)

QUOTE

Hey Alberto,

Shalom haver !

Where did you get it from (the language) ?

Do you know more ?

Ronnie

I only know a few words in Hebrew...

And ´Mazzel Tov´´ with the germination of the other seeds!...

[Carlo Morici]

Thank you Reuven for your replies. I wish you the best for getting more fundings for more research. Keep posting as the palm grow.

Carlo

[Dave-Vero]

Anyway, best wishes to Cohen, Sallon (and presumably et al.) in getting the first report published quickly.  

I suppose the first question asked by editors will be "how do you know that particular seed is really from the stated archaeological setting and not just a stray date pit?"  Looks like that's been taken care of.   And of course we won't expect to see a paper until it's published.

[rubyz]

(Dave-Vero @ Apr. 30 2007,06:41)

QUOTE

I suppose the first question asked by editors will be "how do you know that particular seed is really from the stated archaeological setting and not just a stray date pit?"  Looks like that's been taken care of.

Dave, the editorial board of all scientific journals have every right to be wary of hoaxes and unintentional screw-ups. You can rest assured that in this case, as in most modern archeological digs, there was complete photographic documentation of all the finds as supervised by Dr. Netzer, the chief archeologist of this particular excavation. This, together with the radio-carbon dating results, would confirm the authenticity of the seed(s).

There is, however, another interesting matter to be dealt with: an exact analytical description of a singular Judean Date variety - if there really is/was one. Dr. Solowey has pointed out what could be a fascinating dilemma, namely, that there could have been several varieties, perhaps some native, perhaps some foreign, perhaps some as the result of unintentional cross-beeding. Inasmuch as genetic engineering was unknown in the ancient world, and did not historically exist until Mendel began to experiment, botanic cultivation was basically a hit-and-miss activity, hardly scientific and conclusive. Therefore, without the genetic testing of hundreds - if not thousands - of these ancient seeds from a variety of sites, the term "Judean variety" could remain a speculative one, perhaps only typifying what could be assumed to be a basic variety of date palm extant in Ancient Israel.

[Dave-Vero]

Exactly.  Regrettably, hoaxes and fake data still happen.  

The angle about fitting the baby palm into the world of cultivated date palms sounds intriguing.  I know nothing about date varieties, but did see an interesting story on conserving old Spanish varieties that are quite cold tolerant.  

My hunch would be that ancient Israel/Judea/vicinity was a busy center of overland trade, so date seeds or even pups could have come from all over, even if oranges, sugar cane, and rice hadn't reached the Mediterranean by Roman times.  Ancient peoples in the Americas were proficient plant breeders, and I'm sure Mediterranean farmers were, too.

There will be lots of questions about such a long dormancy, too.  With germplasm conservation becoming an important topic, research into maintaining seed viability has become very sophisticated.  Troublingly, seeds of most crops can't simply be frozen and kept viable.

[rubyz]

(Dave-Vero @ Apr. 30 2007,23:15)

QUOTE

My hunch would be that ancient Israel/Judea/vicinity was a busy center of overland trade, so date seeds or even pups could have come from all over, even if oranges, sugar cane, and rice hadn't reached the Mediterranean by Roman times.  Ancient peoples in the Americas were proficient plant breeders, and I'm sure Mediterranean farmers were, too.

This certainly seems to be a reasonable possibility.

    Nevertheless, it seems less important to me where a plant originated from than where it truly flourished. For example, it is widely believed that the Medjool variety originated in Morocco, but who can be certain of this? We can say this is a "Moraccan variety," since we know that this is where this palm originally thrived. So the Judean variety, whose origin may or may not have been in Ancient Israel, certainly prospered and achieved its fame there.

    I would be interested in knowing where some of the other fruit species mention in the Bible, such as the olive the grape and the fig, originally thrived.

[rubyz]

Hi All,

This morning (May 1) I received two pics from Dr. Solowey. One of them, I am sure, was a photo which I've already posted, and the other was of some sort of flowering plant which I'm reasonably sure was not even a palm! It seems that she botched things up, and I've sent her an e-mail requesting the (real) new pics.

Sorry for the delay! ???

[Kris]

Dear guys  

even now iam monitoring this intresting topic.as shakesper has said if music be the food of love play on.....in this fashion

any information on phoenix Sp and on phoenix hybridisation

make my eyes glow like a 100 watts bulb.and even if iam in sleep,this wakes me up as much as i love the cartoon simpsons of springfiled...

Rubyz keep up the good work_Buddy !  

Love,

Kris  

[Dave-Vero]

NY Times

Figs were being grown at Jericho some 11,400 years ago.  Looks like they may have been among the earliest domesticated plants.

[rubyz]

(Dave-Vero @ May 01 2007,16:08)

QUOTE

Figs were being grown at Jericho some 11,400 years ago.  Looks like they may have been among the earliest domesticated plants.

Thanks for that very enlightening article. I had the pleasure of eating extremely tasty figs right off a fig tree when I was in Nabatea, Lebanon. Much tastier than the packaged variety, but you would expect that. Naturally, there has been lots of speculation concerning the taste of a Judean date, should the current specimen turn out to be a female, or should Dr. Solowey succeed in germinating more seeds which would produce females. Only time will tell (perhaps in 2010).

[AJQ]

Any Update? It Seems to have gone very quiet.

"Turin Shroud" springs to mind........  ???

Regards Andy

[Kris]

Dear Rubyz  

where are you.....! we all miss you & Ronnie in our discussion

boards.

i wish you to resrect all your intresting threads soon.

we are all waiting..

Love,

Kris  

[monkeyranch]

I seem to recall hearing of a  corn blight back in the 60s or 70s (?) which affected hybrid corn at that time.  Years of breeding and selection from the same lines can narrow genetic variation.  All of the contemporary hybrids had a genetic weakness to this disease.  Researchers had to go back to the hearth of corn evolution in central Mexico to obtain new varieties to breed around this weakness.  Sometimes heirloom seeds of other garden vegetables have disease resistance that modern varieties have lost in the pursuit of yields.  I don't know what's buggin' modern date plantations but perhaps this "genetic time traveler" will bestow some breeding value upon the modern date.  On the flip side, hybridization threats to P. theophrasti and P. canariensis's true forms remind us that breeding can 'disappear" species and as much as we can affect the destiny of biology, evolution also has its own course.  After all, humans can be seen as big, funny-lookin, non-flying, seed-dispersing birds in the big picture.  Back to the corn issue, genetically engineered varieties are now escaping from fields and have polluted the integrity of Mexico's corn heartland.  This destiny has begun.  Maybe after wee-little-brain, monkey-humans wipe out their food supply with this genetic tinkering, the aliens will hatch a 3000 year old seed and discover the reason for our extinction.  Genetic mapping is ok but not the engineering.  I'm not  technophobic or a luddite or anything like that, I just like a  predictable food supply.  Not an easy thing to come by on this planet.  One last comment on a quoted phrase.   "the last thirty years has seen a significant shift toward privatization."  Ya we got the same problem over here as hustlers highjack our public moneys, claiming they can provide "better" services and somehow slice in a fat profit.  They got our public pie smushed all over their pudgy, greedy faces.  And they took way more than they could eat.  Don't naively forsake your right to open, public process.   At least government operations are legally open to public review and refinement.  You need a lot of lawyers and money for that insight into a private contractor. Anyhow, thats my story and I'm stickin to it.  Cheers to our new family member of the date palm continuum and thank you for the update.

[tanetahi]

It is unfortunate that the Judean palm, in a way, falls foul of the Arab/Jew political divide. Date palms in general are of just as much cultural significance to Arabs as they are to Jews, the difference, though, is that the Arabs have mountains of petro-dollars. A Saudi concern used to buy clonal plantlets of preferred strains of Phoenix dactylifera for £7 each from a tissue culture lab I worked at in south-western England in the late 1980's. It goes without saying, not one cent of Saudi/Gulf Arab money would ever be spent on molecular analysis of relictual date palm populations in Israeli controlled territory. Which is a shame.

[Alberto]

I feel why this single palm is so important in Israel, at the side of the botanical interest ,this palm is a symbol of Eretz Israel....

It´s back to life after 2000 years!!! A ´dead seed´ revived in a palm.  A folk revived again a Nation!

[palmdudetx]

Reuven

Although the response to your e-mail may have been small, believe me plenty such as myself are keeping up with your notices. I simply thank that it is fantastic!!!

Sure there are many palms from madagascar that are fantastic, however the phoenix are very nice and popular.

Here in Houston,Tx. there are more and more being installed in the new shopping centers.

May they have much luck in the germination of the other seeds.

Marvin

Zone 9a

[Moose]

On 7/24/2007, 6:18:55, AJQ said:

Any Update? It Seems to have gone very quiet.

 

"Turin Shroud" springs to mind........  ???

 

 

 

Regards Andy

 

Crickets ........

[_Keith]

I recall seeing that this Palm made fruit this year. 

[Joe NC]

 

date-palm-grown-2000-year-old-seed-dad

 

The newest photo of this palm I could find in google. 

[sur4z]

An interesting YouTube interview...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NY3rG_0tlA

[Moose]

3 hours ago, Joe NC said:

 

date-palm-grown-2000-year-old-seed-dad

 

The newest photo of this palm I could find in google. 

great find!

[DoomsDave]

AH!

The Moose has resurrected  . . . .

A thread about the resurrection of a palm that could be extinct.

A resurrection within a resurrection!

What a cool thing for Thanksgiving Day Eve (U.S.)!

(Maybe someday someone will compare the Judean and Arabian dates' genomes?)

[DoomsDave]

On 7/27/2007, 12:19:56, monkeyranch said:

I seem to recall hearing of a  corn blight back in the 60s or 70s (?) which affected hybrid corn at that time.  Years of breeding and selection from the same lines can narrow genetic variation.  All of the contemporary hybrids had a genetic weakness to this disease.  Researchers had to go back to the hearth of corn evolution in central Mexico to obtain new varieties to breed around this weakness.  Sometimes heirloom seeds of other garden vegetables have disease resistance that modern varieties have lost in the pursuit of yields.  I don't know what's buggin' modern date plantations but perhaps this "genetic time traveler" will bestow some breeding value upon the modern date.  On the flip side, hybridization threats to P. theophrasti and P. canariensis's true forms remind us that breeding can 'disappear" species and as much as we can affect the destiny of biology, evolution also has its own course.  After all, humans can be seen as big, funny-lookin, non-flying, seed-dispersing birds in the big picture.  Back to the corn issue, genetically engineered varieties are now escaping from fields and have polluted the integrity of Mexico's corn heartland.  This destiny has begun.  Maybe after wee-little-brain, monkey-humans wipe out their food supply with this genetic tinkering, the aliens will hatch a 3000 year old seed and discover the reason for our extinction.  Genetic mapping is ok but not the engineering.  I'm not  technophobic or a luddite or anything like that, I just like a  predictable food supply.  Not an easy thing to come by on this planet.  One last comment on a quoted phrase.   "the last thirty years has seen a significant shift toward privatization."  Ya we got the same problem over here as hustlers highjack our public moneys, claiming they can provide "better" services and somehow slice in a fat profit.  They got our public pie smushed all over their pudgy, greedy faces.  And they took way more than they could eat.  Don't naively forsake your right to open, public process.   At least government operations are legally open to public review and refinement.  You need a lot of lawyers and money for that insight into a private contractor. Anyhow, thats my story and I'm stickin to it.  Cheers to our new family member of the date palm continuum and thank you for the update.

Wait till the private contractors start tinkering with the human genome.

[Moose]

2 minutes ago, DoomsDave said:

Wait till the private contractors start tinkering with the human genome.

Can they make me look like Brad Pitt ?  

[Mohsen]

Wikipedia:

In 2005, a preserved 2,000-year-old seedsprouted.^[1] It is the oldest verified human-assisted germination of a seed (the claim in 2012 of a 32,000-year-old arctic flower involved fruit tissue rather than a seed).^[2] The palm, named Methuselah (not to be confused with a bristlecone pine tree of the same name), was about 1.5 m (5 ft) tall in June 2008.^[3] As of November 2011, it is reported at 2.5 m (8 ft) high, having been transplanted from pot to earth.^[4] By May of 2015, the palm was 3.0 metres tall and was producing pollen.^[5]

[Keith N Tampa (ex SoJax)]

6 hours ago, Moose said:

Can they make me look like Brad Pitt ?  

Yes, but only with photoshop.

[DoomsDave]

20 hours ago, Moose said:

Can they make me look like Brad Pitt ?  

Could they make Brad Pitt look like you?

[Moose]

3 hours ago, DoomsDave said:

Could they make Brad Pitt look like you?

No genomist required, just pull out an old school ugly stick and have at it.