What is this Cycad?

[Gbarce]

As a Christmas gift to myself I bought a cycad ( I couldn't find a palm ok!)

The  vendor said that it was a Encephalartos  Latifrons but he really wasn't sure that that is correct - that is just the name that he remembers.  He bought this plant as an offshoot with just 2 leaves around 15 years ago and he remembers that the mother plant had blue green leaves .  

I looked up E. Latifrons and it is suppose to have glossy green leaves and the leaves look very different.  

Any Cycad expert out there that can identify it?

[Gbarce]

Here is another angle.

Th e first time I saw this plant the color of the leaves were definitey bluish green.  That was when it was newly brought in from the the farm and into the plant store.

In the store It was under a lot of shade and through the months the leaves have become dark green and the  have become a bit lanky.

[Gbarce]

Leaves- showing the "arche" of the leaflets

[Gbarce]

Here's a shot of the caudex

[Gbarce]

Leaf arrangement

[Gbarce]

Close up  of leaflets

[Gbarce]

Another shot of leaflets

[Gbarce]

Another angle.  Some of the "spines" curve inward.

Thanks to this forum in advance !

And Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you all!!!

[freakypalmguy]

The bluish coloration makes me think E. arenarius but it could be E. latifrons as well. That's a nice score Gene, it's a beaut.

Matt

[BS Man about Palms]

I'm with Matt on his first guess, I don't think its a Latifrons.  Hopefully some of the Cycad experts will chime in.  Bruce?

[deezpalms]

three spines per leaf ~ trispinosus?? I have a blue arenarius and it looks different to me.

[LJG]

Looks like a stretched Trispinosus to me. Certainly not Latifrons. Curious to see what the Cycad guys say.

Dave, there are basically three main forms of arenarius. A green, the common bluish colored, and the "Blue" arenarius. Many people confuse the more common one with the exceedingly rare and pricey true blue form. If your arenarius is as powdery blue as a nice Horridus for example, you have a real winner and I would wonder where you got it. My guess is you have the common bluer ones being sold like I have.

[BS Man about Palms]

(deezpalms @ Dec. 24 2007,10:03)

QUOTE

three spines per leaf ~ trispinosus?? I have a blue arenarius and it looks different to me.

I thought at first too Dave, but I think I spotted leaves with more than "3".

[Steele]

On second thought Gene.. my first impression was also Arenarius (glaucous blue/green), but the absence of lobes in the lower part of the rachis (especially in pic 3) says no. Those leaflets are entire, and that almost certainly suggests one of the numerous variations of E. Trispinosus to me.

One thing is for certain - it's not a Latifrons. Leaf spacing, leaf colour, leaf width - everything is wrong. Latifrons leaflets are exceptionally broad, dark glossy green, always overlap and twist out of plane to the rachis - and all the spines (3 or 4) are always on the bottom margin. But make no mistake - you bought yourself a lovely plant!

And by the way - a merry Christmas to you all!

(Yes, it's already Christmas here in South Africa)  

Willie O.

[Gbarce]

(BS, Man about Palms @ Dec. 24 2007,16:25)

QUOTE

(deezpalms @ Dec. 24 2007,10:03)

QUOTE

three spines per leaf ~ trispinosus?? I have a blue arenarius and it looks different to me.

I thought at first too Dave, but I think I spotted leaves with more than "3".

Actually depending on where on the leaf you look  the leaflets have from 2 to 4 spines.  But the most common is 3 spines in the middle part of the leaf.  For the ones with 4 spines the 4th is kind of small so that doesn't count I guess.

After looking things up in the internet I am thinking either Arenarius of spinosus too.  I think giving it more sun should bring it into a better so that its easier to identify.

The vendor says that this plant was not grown in ideal conditions in his farm (not enough sun) and even wore in his store.  Due to lack of space he decided to let it go to give it a better home.  

He remembers the mother plant to have a more compact form and the leaves were blue green.

I am open to any advice on how to grow this baby.

Merrty Christmas by the way - its 9am chistmas day here already!!!

[Gbarce]

(LJG @ Dec. 24 2007,15:56)

QUOTE

Looks like a stretched Trispinosus to me. Certainly not Latifrons. Curious to see what the Cycad guys say.

Dave, there are basically three main forms of arenarius. A green, the common bluish colored, and the "Blue" arenarius. Many people confuse the more common one with the exceedingly rare and pricey true blue form. If your arenarius is as powdery blue as a nice Horridus for example, you have a real winner and I would wonder where you got it. My guess is you have the common bluer ones being sold like I have.

Since this baby was not grown in the best growing conditions, I can't really be certain of its typical look.  I will grow her in full sun and hopefully she does better and she begins to show her true self.   The first time I saw this I thought that the leaf color was more blue-gray actually

We'll have to wait till its next flush of leaves to find out if it is powdery blue. Either way I think I got it at a real bargain for the size of the plant.

Its still a toss up between Aurenarius and Trispinosus though.  The more pictures I see the more confused I get -- there are aparently a lot of variations even within each species.

[Kris]

Dear gene  

that's a lovely cycas,iam trying to buy one of it.its my favouriate amoung the E.series  

if your plant is correctly identified,i will be the most benifited person,since without proper names to collect cycas is very difficult.but that variety is very common in the U.S.since most of our U.S memebers have it ! and i have seen it..

thanks for those lovely stills,

love,

Kris  

[Gbarce]

If this plant has been in a shady spot for a very long time will I shock it if I place it in full sun immediately?

How long a transition period in a brighter but still protected area should I keep it beore really exposing it to full sun?

Thanks

[freakypalmguy]

(Gbarce @ Dec. 25 2007,03:57)

QUOTE

If this plant has been in a shady spot for a very long time will I shock it if I place it in full sun immediately?

How long a transition period in a brighter but still protected area should I keep it beore really exposing it to full sun?

Thanks

Most likely, yes. I have torched a couple of cycads by puting them into the sun too fast. They turned black within days (summertime). I would acclimate it over a couple months. But, if it starts flushing, put it in the sun immediately so the new growth will be full sun acclimated.

Whichever plant that is, aren. or tri., you got a nice one.

Matt

[tropicalb]

Gene...

I have put shade grown blue encephalartos into the full sun during the winter time, and the old leaves may brown some, but when spring / summer flush comes along, the new leaves will be fine.

Your plant looks like an E. Arenarius to me.

[cycadjungle]

See, you palm guys are better than you think. That looks just like an arenarius with a medium amount of blue in it. The "true blue" from that one farm might actually be a natural cross from a lon time ago of arenarius and horridus. The ones that are blue but not that particular cultivar looks like your pictures. It does have 3 spines, but they are more pronounced and when they get as tall as the one shown, people call those lobes, and this plant has lobs, not the smaller spines. Latifrons is more green and not as fast growing. I am glad you got a good deal, because, around here, if someone was trying to sell you what they said was a latifrons, it would be one of the most expensive cycad species around. You still have a very nice plant but does not go for the same price, and I like this species better. You have one that grows fairly fast and has a good blue color, the best of both worlds.

[LJG]

I just do not see arenarius (because I have a lot to learn). It does not look like mine or others I have seen. Mine has marginal spines/lobes on all leaflets. Including the first ones off the rachis. Mine also has 4 spines/lobes on 90% of all leaflets. I understand there is so much variation within Encephalartos species, but I still see more trispinosus then arenarius. But I would certainly take a growers word like Toms, over mine. That's for sure.  

Tom, funny you like arenarius more then latifrons. Here in SoCal, maybe we are spoiled with the ease of growing blue that the dark green, overlapping leaflets of latifrons just make for a more desirable plant - cost put aside. I personally find a well grown Latifrons to be one of the most ornamental species of Encephalartos. Although Encephalartos inopinus and the species from the Eugene-maraisii complex are right there.

[tropicalb]

I'd trade a nubimontanus for a latifrons any day of the week.

[cycadjungle]

There are usually a few reasons why I will like a species. One, the species must be attractive to me, but also, I like plants that respond well to cultivation for my area. I grew some latifrons for many years from single leaf seedlings and in about 10 years, the plants were a couple of inches in diameter. I can get an arenarius to have a 7 inch stem and a 5 to 6 foot spread in 7 years from seed. We don't normally grow species like horridus well when we have lots of rain here in Florida, and for looks, I love a nasty, spiny looking horridus. If you get a nice, blue arenarius, it looks like a horridus on steriods and it loves FLorida growing. So anyway, that is why I like arenarius more than latifrons. Sure, if someone gave me a latifrons with a foot of stem on it, that would be a really nice plant, but I don't have the $15,000 to buy it and nobody is going to give me one, so I am sticking with arenarius as one of my top 5 favorite cycad species.

 Len, I have seen many of the type of arenarius you mention. I got several seedlings many years ago from Jeff Chemnick that had those small spines instead of the larger lobes. I am not all that impressed with that type and when I am showing the different specimens to people who are looking to buy one, they have always passed up the ones with small spines. If you want an outstanding arenarius you try to find one with the largest lobes possible and a good blue color. Since this species does not produce seeds here in Florida, I have been forced to buy seedlings from other growers. For all around best seedlings with the largest lobes, Loran Whitelock's seedlings have been best. Another nice looking plant, but with lobes that are slightly smaller, are the "blush blue" arenarius that Dick Johnson (may he rest in peace, he was a good grower, and a good cycad person) produced a few times. His plants have a bluish look and the leaves turn down and curve in, which you don't see very often. I was lucky enough to buy 25 of these plants early this year and they are growing very fast.

[freakypalmguy]

Here is a shot of a section of my arenarius. The agressiveness of the leaflets is what attracted me to this plant over the other arenarius plants in the batch. It has a little bit of blue in the newer growth. I hope that with time it will get more blue.

[LJG]

Where did you get yours Matt? I will have to post a pic of mine when I get home. I have a real nice one I got from Dwain Knapp (I think I referred you to him?). I think he got the seed from Loran years ago.

[freakypalmguy]

Hey Len,

George Sparkman hooked me up with that one. He's got a lot of killer stuff like Dwain. Yep, that was me that you referred. Thank you again. He a great hook-up. I want to get back down there soon and spend a little more time perusing his killer collection (and maybe buy a plant or two or three....... )

Matt

[cycadjungle]

Matt, you went to  good place. Between George and the Sternbergs, they are the nicest cycad people you will ever meet. If I was looking for good people who will treat you fair and with respect, you can't get any better than them in the southern part of Cali. I will see if I can get a few close up shots of some different arenarius leaflets and figure how to put them in a post here.

[LJG]

Here is a pic of mine.

From top

Leaflet Detail

[Cycadcenter]

Hi Gene,

I would have to concur that it is definitly not a latifrons,  nor do I think it is a pure arenarius. it looks to me to be either an arenarius or trispinosus varient or even a hybrid.

For those who are interested here are some photos of Encephalartos arenarius various forms whic we have growing in our garden.  All of these plants have provenance so there is not question as to their authenticity.

This is the green form of arenarius

I'll put the other forms on another post.

[Cycadcenter]

This one is the "blue/green form"

[Cycadcenter]

And this is the "true blue form"  of arenarius

Thanks,  and everyone is welcome to come and see our collection and nursery.  

Just PM for an appointment and I think you'll find we're nice people also.

[LJG]

Bruce, your "true blue form" of arenarius is the only one I have ever seen. I remember that plant for sure.

[BS Man about Palms]

(Cycadcenter @ Dec. 26 2007,17:35)

QUOTE

and I think you'll find we're nice people also.

Well, I guess so............. now that you mention it...  

[Gbarce]

Bruce and Len - first of all greal looking plants!!

I see what you mean- and I now lean more to my plant being a Trispinosus.  Aurenarius do seem to have "rounder/fuller" shaped leaflets and definitely packec much closer together.

Any advice on what I should do to acclimate it to full sun since its been in a shady position for a very very long time?

Also I was thinking about the rainy season we get here from around June to September-- I am afraid of rot-- any suggestions on how to protect it?

[LJG]

Gene, the leaflets will pack together more in full sun. I would place it right into full sun. It will blue up a little in full sun and the next flush will be able to handle it.

[Kris]

Dear Bruce Ironmonger  

yes,that is the one i was talking about....very very popular amoung Americans who have a climate to grow one....

i will say that looking at your stills i was just worshipping them..and we do not have a retailer or a nursery where one could buy that buety...!  

thanks once again for those lovely true blue form cycas stills...

love,

Kris.

[freakypalmguy]

(Cycadcenter @ Dec. 26 2007,20:35)

QUOTE

Thanks,  and everyone is welcome to come and see our collection and nursery.  

Just PM for an appointment and I think you'll find we're nice people also.

Beautifull pictures Bruce.

I did not get a chance to meet you on my visit, but Suzi was a very gracious host to my wife and I during our visit. She gave us a tour of your entire property. Very impressive. We left with a truckload of "booty", all of which is doing great. Encephalartos horridus, trispinosus, lanatus, Cycas taitungensis (x2), and even a Brachychiton rupestris. Definitely need to get down there again.

Anyone looking for great cycads in socal, I highly recommend them.

Matt

[freakypalmguy]

(Gbarce @ Dec. 27 2007,01:43)

QUOTE

Also I was thinking about the rainy season we get here from around June to September-- I am afraid of rot-- any suggestions on how to protect it?

Gene,

Make sure your soil is free draining and even mound it up when you plant it to facilitate better drainage. From what I understand, cycads don't mind a bit of moist soil, they just don't want to sit in water or saturated soil.

Here is a link to an article written by Phil and Jesse Bergman that is top notch and packed with info.

Cycad Advice

Good luck,

Matt

[Gbarce]

Matt- Thanks for the link.  These are very valuable downloads