The name game... First came birds, now, 100's of plants with questionable names will get new ones..

[Silas_Sancona]

Awhile back, i'd mentioned how the American Ornithological Society had been discussing renaming a number of North Americasn Bird species whose scientific names, species specifically, were questionable in an age of recognizing and discarding out dated, or controversial  names and how this trend would likely -and thankfully- expand beyond our feathered friends.

That time has arrived for the plant world,  and i'm sure this is just the start.   Anticipate Insects, Fish, and Reptiles / Amphibians to be the next group put under the magnifying glass.

Accept it or not,  Reality is:  the world will always progress  forward. 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/leading-botanists-vote-to-rename-hundreds-of-plant-species-with-racist-names/ar-BB1qY2ZW

[Looking Glass]

Millennials and Gen Z are growing up too fast.  I didn’t even realize I was supposed to be offended by the obscure Latin names of trees and birds and insects until now.   Overall though, almost no one will hear or care about it.  

I agree that it’s just the start…  Its moving into everyday items, life and language.  

Actual diagrams directly from a Washington Post Article….  https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/interactive/2021/bird-names-racism-audubon/

There’s no doubt, that people in the past, with big egos, who did great things and invented great stuff, were often great big a-holes in real life.   It’s a trend that continues today.   

[Silas_Sancona]

  On 8/1/2024 at 3:20 AM, Looking Glass said:

Millennials and Gen Z are growing up too fast.

Expand  

Lol,  not at all..

A lot of folks in the various fields of study ...far removed from the youngest of current  generations  who were pointing out this stuff quite some time ago.  I remember my H.S. Bio. teacher pointing out a few things like this in the mid 90s.

As with many things, change takes time and the added weight of the enlightened ..of all generations... but the younger esp. to get the ball rolling   -in the right direction..

  On 8/1/2024 at 3:20 AM, Looking Glass said:

Overall though, almost no one will hear or care about it.  

Expand  

Know plenty of people, who won't hesitate to educate folks on this stuff.  ..So yea', plenty of people do care.  Not everyone stays silent / just blindly accepts such things as  " That's the way it is / was taught / has been " 

As far as the " in the past " thoughts,  Sure, while that way of thinking may have found tolerance / blind acceptance in the past ..and does continue, ..to some degree, for the moment..   It won't stay that way much longer..  Can't keep the sun from rising on a new day.




 

[Looking Glass]

People like to fancy themselves as enlightened, or better than the people of the past….  They’re not.   They are just the same old person, randomly born into different times, under different conditions.   I shudder to think what Steve Jobs, Jeff Bezos, or Elon Musk, or these protesting mobs, would be doing to people if it were 1492, 1776, or 1850.   It wouldn’t be pretty.   

Christopher Columbus, born today, would probably be a wealthy, socially and environmentally conscious (intelligent marketing) corporate leader, and not a hand chopper.   

The more people I meet, and the longer I’m around, the more I’m surprised at how alike and predictable seemingly different people are.   We are all just hairless primates who stay very true to our nature and loyal to our tribes.  

[Silas_Sancona]

  On 8/1/2024 at 5:52 AM, Looking Glass said:

People like to fancy themselves as enlightened, or better than the people of the past….  They’re not.  

Expand  

😂      ...And you know this,  for certain,  ...how???  

Dweeb from Spain would be fed to animals if born today..   Not idolized.  Thankfully. 

Anyway..


 

[Looking Glass]

  On 8/1/2024 at 6:21 AM, Silas_Sancona said:

😂      ...And you know this,  for certain,  ...how???  

Dweeb from Spain would be fed to animals if born today..   Not idolized.  Thankfully. 

Anyway..

Expand  

Humans have not evolved generically in any appreciable or measurable way what so ever since those time periods.  Some social norms, laws and customs have changed (though certainly not everywhere in the world), but the organisms themselves, for all purposes, are identical.   The only differences are the social environments, and cultures that they are born into.  

A strong leader, organizer and successful person then, would likely display those same characteristics now, but would follow the societal norms of the day and age that they are born into.  The same would be true in reverse.   

A person who doesn’t fit into modern life, and thinks, “I should have been born a cowboy in the ‘Wild West’”, wouldn’t actually fit in there.  If born at that time, they wouldn’t fit in there either, and they would say “I should have been born in medieval times, as a knight”.  If born as a knight, they’d wish they were a caveman.  

People are very consistent over big themes, though the details of their circumstances do vary.  

 

 

[Darold Petty]

Human nature does not change.  We might believe we are more advanced than the ancients, but just barely.  Refer to Greek philosophy.

I support losing the vile word for 'infidel'.  I was taught that its common usage in SA was equivalent to the American "n" word.   However,   I don't support botanical names honoring persons, including hooperiana or sullivaniorum. 

 The genus name is less important*, but the species epithet should reference a special or unique detail to that organism.  

*  How convenient for Washingtonia and Brahea,  LOL !!   

[Silas_Sancona]

  On 8/1/2024 at 2:26 PM, Looking Glass said:

A person who doesn’t fit into modern life, and thinks, “I should have been born a cowboy in the ‘Wild West’”, wouldn’t actually fit in there.  If born at that time, they wouldn’t fit in there either, and they would say “I should have been born in medieval times, as a knight”.  If born as a knight, they’d wish they were a caveman.  

Expand  

Disagree,  Unless the " modern misfit " actually tried on Cowboy clothes for a few days, there's no way to say ..for certain.. that those clothes wouldn't fit.. 

Many people -who aren't afraid of looking / thinking beyond what they were lead to assume is their " life " - have tried on different hats in their lives. One can be an Astronaut, and a Cowboy ..or Knight  within the same lifetime..

Who the heck would want to be a Cave person, lol ... Well,  ....there are some still alive who tremble violently in fear at the idea of actually ....evolving. 

Thinking a little more on that,  Living in a cave might actually cost a lot less than living in a house built of sticks that burns to ashes or blows down in a strong breeze though..
 

 

  On 8/1/2024 at 2:26 PM, Looking Glass said:

Humans have not evolved generically in any appreciable or measurable way what so ever since those time periods.

Expand  

I'm sure we have. That big scary evolution word is always at work, even on humans.. 

For one, We live a lot longer now,  and likely will live even longer in the future  ..Those that want to anyway  -Fact..
 

 

  On 8/1/2024 at 2:46 PM, Darold Petty said:

Human nature does not change.  We might believe we are more advanced than the ancients, but just barely

Expand  

If modern humans / X aspect of human nature has advanced  ..even by a hair,  compared to humans / human nature aspect X of the past,  then they have changed,  and will continue to do so  ..even if that change occurs just as slowly in the future as it has in the past.

Greek Mythology was just that ..more of a fun, fad- ish era of Myth,  than truth. ..like another big era of somewhat entertaining, but super stretched story telling.

Agree 100%, living organisms ..or even rocks  shouldn't have human names attached to them -at all-. 

I ever manage to stumble across something that hadn't yet been recorded by human eyes, modern human eyes esp.  ..or maybe is genetically distinct enough to consider it it's own species, Can mention what i'd noticed that lead to the discovery, but don't want my name attached to it..  No craving for having my ego stroked.

Who knows, maybe someday both palm Genus will escape the human name game too.. 🤷🏽‍♂️

[Darold Petty]

Nathan, mythology survives because it addresses immutable aspects of the human condition.  Luke Skywalker is nothing more than the hero's journey, and the Prodigal Son.  The work of Joseph Campbell addresses these themes.  

[Silas_Sancona]

  On 8/1/2024 at 5:58 PM, Darold Petty said:

Nathan, mythology survives because it addresses immutable aspects of the human condition.  Luke Skywalker is nothing more than the hero's journey, and the Prodigal Son.  The work of Joseph Campbell addresses these themes.  

Expand  

To / for some,  but not all..

[ahosey01]

This is what is defined as a "first-world problem."

[Looking Glass]

  On 8/1/2024 at 5:29 PM, Silas_Sancona said:

Disagree,  Unless the " modern misfit " actually tried on Cowboy clothes for a few days, there's no way to say ..for certain.. that those clothes wouldn't fit.. 
.. 🤷🏽‍♂️

Expand  

It’s backwards…  The overriding foundational characteristic of “Difficulty Adjusting to Present Realities, Romanticizes the Past” would dominate over the minor present details.   The clothes would never fit, because no matter what clothes they are, “not fitting at the current time” is the dominant personality trait.  The time period is irrelevant.  
 

  On 8/1/2024 at 5:29 PM, Silas_Sancona said:

I'm sure we have. That big scary evolution word is always at work, even on humans.. 

For one, We live a lot longer now,  and likely will live even longer in the future  ..Those that want to anyway  -Fact..
.. 🤷🏽‍♂️

Expand  

Evolution of the overall population is very much at work.  Survival and multiplication of offspring is the sole driver.   It just takes a long time and many generations.   We become those who have the most descendants, as a population.  It’s natural selection and survivability.  

Living longer could only be accounted for with evolution, if it increased the number and survivability of offspring.   It might, if grandparents being around increased the number of great grandchildren produced.  If not, there is no need for people to live longer from an evolutionary standpoint.  Continued passage of genes and multiplication of descendants is the sole driver.   

We mostly live longer now, over a relatively short time scale, due to modern medicine, engineering advancements, and mass food production (eeek!).  

But at this point I’ll digress.    I’ll turn to you for final rebuttal of my end of this otherwise interesting discussion….. 

[JLM]

My entirely unproductive opinion:

People need to grow thicker skin. I didnt realize plants were supposed to be harmful to our personal feelings like that lol

[D. Morrowii]

Well there is something that doesn't feel right about memorializing a person who has done some terrible wrong. There is a question as to where you draw that line and what person in what generation gets to decide that. How far do we go back? Is there a point where good deeds out weigh the bad? Completely Ignoring the fact that it was a “different time” doesn't feel right either. Being from this time and judging that another. Removing the obscure name or reference also doesn't seem like some great right either. It seems like the time money and effort would be better spent elsewhere. I’d rather see a footnote pointing out the persons negative aspects be added. 

[Silas_Sancona]

  On 8/1/2024 at 6:46 PM, Looking Glass said:

It’s backwards…  The overriding foundational characteristic of “Difficulty Adjusting to Present Realities, Romanticizes the Past” would dominate over the minor present details.   The clothes would never fit, because no matter what clothes they are, “not fitting at the current time” is the dominant personality trait.  The time period is irrelevant.  
 

Expand  

I don't think fawning over the past is something most people do.  Certain groups?,  perhaps ..but they exist more within a minority than majority. 

Most want to move forward and leave the past ..in the past,  where it belongs.  Those in a " don't want to part with the past "  minority, that choose to,  can progress ...or continue haplessly fawning over some odd, fetishized vision of days gone by until their time is up. The past will eventually fall away,  one way or another.


Without trying on the clothes, you'd never know if they would fit or not..  Dominant personality traits can work both ways ..True, new clothes may never fit some, while they fit many others perfectly, ..until it is time for the next change ..if that were to occur.

 

 

  On 8/1/2024 at 6:46 PM, Looking Glass said:

Evolution of the overall population is very much at work.  Survival and multiplication of offspring is the sole driver.   It just takes a long time and many generations.   We become those who have the most descendants, as a population.  It’s natural selection and survivability.  

Living longer could only be accounted for with evolution, if it increased the number and survivability of offspring.   It might, if grandparents being around increased the number of great grandchildren produced.  If not, there is no need for people to live longer from an evolutionary standpoint.  Continued passage of genes and multiplication of descendants is the sole driver.   

We mostly live longer now, over a relatively short time scale, due to modern medicine, engineering advancements, and mass food production (eeek!).  

Expand  

This is true ..Survival and multiplication do drive things,  evolution plays a big part in that as well.. and can flip the script at any time, as it has in the past.. One species can dominate the arm's race for ..quite some time,  only to be ousted when evolution produces something better..  Better adaptations to X change(s) in climate, etc..  ..Lifetime smoker for instance who never experiences adverse effects of smoking, ..and passes that advantage on to any kids they might have..  Not that i'm encouraging that at all.

Even if short, compared to some things that seem to live -forever- forward progress  in medicine, etc human- driven progress obviously play a part in longer ..and healthier ( generally ) .. lifespans, but overall evolution is also working -behind the scenes- as well.. As a species, we didn't just stop evolving as soon as we could walk n' talk. 

40yr old today looks nothing like a 40yr old from the 1800's ..Heck, lol some 70yr olds could pass for someone in their late 30s / 40s these days..  Better lifestyle/ life choices? sure,   Genetic progress?  i'd bet on it.





 

[D. Morrowii]

  On 8/1/2024 at 5:29 PM, Silas_Sancona said:

Greek Mythology was just that ..more of a fun, fad- ish era of Myth,  than truth. ..like another big era of somewhat entertaining, but super stretched story telling.

Expand  

Aww I don’t think that’s fair. Myth was never intended to be truth. 
 

  On 8/1/2024 at 5:58 PM, Darold Petty said:

The work of Joseph Campbell addresses these themes.  

Expand  

👍

  On 8/1/2024 at 5:52 AM, Looking Glass said:

People like to fancy themselves as enlightened, or better than the people of the past….  They’re not.

Expand  

This reminds me that progress isn't always progress. The most enlightened of us will be the first to admit that they don’t know. I kind of like to think that the Native Americans here before colonialism had it locked up and we’ve missed the mark. I get the feeling that in a few hundred years when they look back on this period many of our points of view will be viewed negatively.

[Silas_Sancona]

  On 8/1/2024 at 8:18 PM, D. Morrowii said:

I kind of like to think that the Native Americans here before colonialism had it locked up and we’ve missed the mark. I get the feeling that in a few hundred years when they look back on this period many of our points of view will be viewed negatively.

Expand  

Indigenous people definitely had better ideas than many of the folks that tried to replace them..  Were well connected w/ understood / didn't fear nature.   Biophobia is definitely not something they'd have thought could exist ...and probably have a laugh about it sometimes too.