Where can I get hardy agave from?

[Colin1110082]

From what I’ve seen, agave havardiana is the hardiest type. I’m in zone 6, and the agave I mentioned is viable down to zone 5A. Where can I get one besides paying a lot from plants delights nursery, anyone have any ideas or experiences with nurseries? Thanks. Also is there any other agave that might work in 6A? We have wet winters so I would have to put a plastic box over it.

[PalmsInBaltimore]

Agave parryi is pretty hardy as well. Supposedly down to -5°F. Harvard agave is more cold hardy but does seem harder to find. Both are available online. I'm seeing havardiana for $30 on plantdelights.com. $12 on highcountrygardens.com but only a 2.5" pot size so..

[Silas_Sancona]

  On 7/12/2024 at 12:00 AM, Colin1110082 said:

From what I’ve seen, agave havardiana is the hardiest type. I’m in zone 6, and the agave I mentioned is viable down to zone 5A. Where can I get one besides paying a lot from plants delights nursery, anyone have any ideas or experiences with nurseries? Thanks. Also is there any other agave that might work in 6A? We have wet winters so I would have to put a plastic box over it.

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Important to remember that " Hardiness " will depend on local conditions..  While your location and where it grows may both be in a similar zone,  winters where it grows are far drier / warmer than winters in Mass.

Specimens in habitat may see snow,  but,  it doesn't stick around for very long and warms up pretty quickly after a storm passes.. Can be in the 90s in early March down there.

If you were to trial it ...or any of the hardier Agave  sps,...  absolutely must create an ideal spot... IE:  the chunkiest, best draining soil possible.  NO Perlite, and / or Peat moss ..AT ALL..  Simply plopping it in the ground anywhere w/ out properly amending the soil it will be growing in is a recipe for failure.

Regardless, would look into any of the cacti / Agave- specific  nurseries in Tucson or Phoenix, CA., NV., or CO, etc.  that can ship plants, even if you may have to start small..

Aridlands = Tucson,  Happy Valley Plants, = PHX area,   Cold Hardy Cactus = Colorado,  Hidden Agave, = San Diego for example..

[Merlyn]

Aridlands is good, but I would check with Starr Nursery first.  Greg Starr is one of the top agave experts and usually carries Harardiana in his online store.  I have bought from them and Plant Delights several times, PD is good but the plants are frequently smaller and more expensive to buy and ship.

[Colin1110082]

  On 7/12/2024 at 1:38 AM, Merlyn said:

Aridlands is good, but I would check with Starr Nursery first.  Greg Starr is one of the top agave experts and usually carries Harardiana in his online store.  I have bought from them and Plant Delights several times, PD is good but the plants are frequently smaller and more expensive to buy and ship.

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Yep! That’s why i’m asking for places that aren’t plants delights, it costs them 50 dollars to ship a plant in a 4 in pot lol.

[Colin1110082]

  On 7/12/2024 at 1:38 AM, Merlyn said:

Aridlands is good, but I would check with Starr Nursery first.  Greg Starr is one of the top agave experts and usually carries Harardiana in his online store.  I have bought from them and Plant Delights several times, PD is good but the plants are frequently smaller and more expensive to buy and ship.

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  On 7/12/2024 at 1:14 AM, PalmsInBaltimore said:

Agave parryi is pretty hardy as well. Supposedly down to -5°F. Harvard agave is more cold hardy but does seem harder to find. Both are available online. I'm seeing havardiana for $30 on plantdelights.com. $12 on highcountrygardens.com but only a 2.5" pot size so..

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2.5 is small so I will probably pass. Parryi is zone 7. It would probably grow but I feel more comfortable getting a hardy type. I think I saw there was a hybrid of parryi that can go down to 5.. i’m not sure though

[Colin1110082]

  On 7/12/2024 at 1:18 AM, Silas_Sancona said:

Important to remember that " Hardiness " will depend on local conditions..  While your location and where it grows may both be in a similar zone,  winters where it grows are far drier / warmer than winters in Mass.

Specimens in habitat may see snow,  but,  it doesn't stick around for very long and warms up pretty quickly after a storm passes.. Can be in the 90s in early March down there.

If you were to trial it ...or any of the hardier Agave  sps,...  absolutely must create an ideal spot... IE:  the chunkiest, best draining soil possible.  NO Perlite, and / or Peat moss ..AT ALL..  Simply plopping it in the ground anywhere w/ out properly amending the soil it will be growing in is a recipe for failure.

Regardless, would look into any of the cacti / Agave- specific  nurseries in Tucson or Phoenix, CA., NV., or CO, etc.  that can ship plants, even if you may have to start small..

Aridlands = Tucson,  Happy Valley Plants, = PHX area,   Cold Hardy Cactus = Colorado,  Hidden Agave, = San Diego for example..

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Yes, the biggest issue here is the wetness. I’ll have to cover it during prolonged periods of rain which do happen. Happy valley plants looks promising, 30 dollars for a 1 gallon plant, decent size when considering 30 dollars on another site gets you a small plant in a quart or something. This might be a winner! As far as soil I am still not even sure if I am getting one. Many people here grow Yucca, those are much more tolerant to rain than Agave from what I see. Many people grow color guard, so I might do one of those. 

[Merlyn]

@Colin1110082 I've had issues with agaves rotting over the winter here.  In my case it isn't so much the cold that kills them, because the lowest temp I've measured here is 24.6F.  But I usually get frost once or twice per year, and that burns a lot of agaves that would otherwise be hardy into the teens.  The moisture problem here is that it'll rain and then the soil will remain damp for several weeks.  In pots it's not too bad, because I can mix my "soil" to not retain much water.  In the ground it's a death sentence for most "desert" type agaves.  I've had 100% mortality in Havardiana, Parrasana, Parryi, Nickelsiae, Asperimma/Scabra (and hybrids), Titanota, Macroacantha, and Gentryi.  Stuff like Utahensis melted to mush after the first week of summer rain.  Two Parryi that have survived are "JC Raulston" and Huachucensis "Excelsior" though neither have exactly thrived here. 

[Colin1110082]

  On 7/12/2024 at 12:59 PM, Merlyn said:

@Colin1110082 I've had issues with agaves rotting over the winter here.  In my case it isn't so much the cold that kills them, because the lowest temp I've measured here is 24.6F.  But I usually get frost once or twice per year, and that burns a lot of agaves that would otherwise be hardy into the teens.  The moisture problem here is that it'll rain and then the soil will remain damp for several weeks.  In pots it's not too bad, because I can mix my "soil" to not retain much water.  In the ground it's a death sentence for most "desert" type agaves.  I've had 100% mortality in Havardiana, Parrasana, Parryi, Nickelsiae, Asperimma/Scabra (and hybrids), Titanota, Macroacantha, and Gentryi.  Stuff like Utahensis melted to mush after the first week of summer rain.  Two Parryi that have survived are "JC Raulston" and Huachucensis "Excelsior" though neither have exactly thrived here. 

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Would putting a clear plastic tub over it before it rains help? I will probably do this in the winter too, mulch heavily and put a clear plastic tub over it. I can probably amend the soil, i’ll have to dig wide and deep and make a well draining gritty solution. For my opuntia I did miracle grow cactus palm mix, gravel, perlite, sculptors sand, and some native soil, our native loam is very sandy and dusty. 

[Silas_Sancona]

  On 7/12/2024 at 4:16 PM, Colin1110082 said:

Would putting a clear plastic tub over it before it rains help? I will probably do this in the winter too, mulch heavily and put a clear plastic tub over it. I can probably amend the soil, i’ll have to dig wide and deep and make a well draining gritty solution. For my opuntia I did miracle grow cactus palm mix, gravel, perlite, sculptors sand, and some native soil, our native loam is very sandy and dusty. 

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A plastic tub won't keep moisture out...  Mulch will wick moisture from surrounding areas, and stay too wet..  Under a tub, esp. in that part of the country,  constantly wet + cold soil / cool ( or cold ) and humid environment under the tub ...during the cooler months, and planted in less than ideal soil esp. = death..

These ..and most of the arid - adapted Agave sps from this part of the world like their winters dry / soil that drains fast / dries out quickly after a rare cool season shower or dusting of snow,  esp. those from the desert and foothill areas here, others from S. AZ, Mexico,  S. New Mexico and W. TX..   ...Areas of N. America that typically don't see much winter rainfall at all. 

Very different environment compared to anywhere east of the Mississippi ..Except maybe far S. Fl. and the Keys, and far S. TX.

Only way to be successful would be creating a special bed where the soil is properly amended to provide the conditions the plant will accept.  Study the habitat, replicate the soil conditions the plants grow in ...as best as possible. 

 Native Opuntia  species there evolved to accept local climate and soil conditions those same conditions won't always work for another plant that did not evolve to tolerate the same conditions as that specific species of Opuntia  ..Or the Yucca sps native to the eastern U.S. 

Different paths of evolution, different tolerances.

Works in reverse too.. i can't grow / would experience more challenges trying to grow certain plants that easily tolerate conditions in the Northern Plains, or even from places like Flagstaff or S. Utah, even though they're close by.

Recent extreme summers have been taking out various C.A.M. plant options which had grown here w/ out too much trouble also, inc. natives like Saguaro and other Cacti / Agave.



 

[SeanK]

  On 7/12/2024 at 2:36 AM, Colin1110082 said:

Yes, the biggest issue here is the wetness. I’ll have to cover it during prolonged periods of rain which do happen. Happy valley plants looks promising, 30 dollars for a 1 gallon plant, decent size when considering 30 dollars on another site gets you a small plant in a quart or something. This might be a winner! As far as soil I am still not even sure if I am getting one. Many people here grow Yucca, those are much more tolerant to rain than Agave from what I see. Many people grow color guard, so I might do one of those. 

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The real problem will be soil. Agaves suck up moisture like a sponge - then rot. You will need course sand and pea gravel.

[aztropic]

Best bet for longevity would be to always keep them potted. You can 'plant' the whole pot out in your garden over the summer,then dig up the pot and bring it inside over the colder months where you can control the minimal amount of moisture it would require while dormant. 

 

aztropic 

Mesa, Arizona 

[Merlyn]

I'd echo @aztropic and @Silas_Sancona regarding the winter wet and methods.  Amending soil with mulch or anything like that will just keep it wet longer, and organic material will wick moisture out from the side.  One advantage you have over me is that the water table here is ~6 feet down, so the soil here is frequently damp 24/7/365.  I like the idea of planting a pot, then pulling it up in the winter and putting it on a sunny spot on the porch.  That's basically what I've done with agaves that rot in the ground here.  I have a raised set of 12x12 pavers and I just leave them in pots in a full sun spot. 

For soil, most organic materials hold a LOT of water.  If you want it to stay dry you want mostly small gravel with a bit of compost/pine bark/orchid bark mix.  This guy did an experiment with bonsai ingredients by soaking a cup and measuring how much water was lost.  So coconut coir retained about 85% of the water in the cup, and granite chips only retained about 5% 

• Coconut Coir 14.6%
• Akadama 26.7%
• Kanuma Pumice 29%
• Diatomaceous Earth 30.2%
• Compost 31.6%
• Pine Bark 33.3%
• Turface MVP – LECA 36.2%
• Perlite 36.4%
• Commercial Peat Moss 40%
• Vermiculite 41.7%
• Sand – coarse grit 67.6%
• Lava Rock (Scoria) 76.5%
• Expanded Shale 84.6%
• Granite Chips 94.4%

[Silas_Sancona]

  On 7/12/2024 at 7:14 PM, Merlyn said:

I'd echo @aztropic and @Silas_Sancona regarding the winter wet and methods.  Amending soil with mulch or anything like that will just keep it wet longer, and organic material will wick moisture out from the side.  One advantage you have over me is that the water table here is ~6 feet down, so the soil here is frequently damp 24/7/365.  I like the idea of planting a pot, then pulling it up in the winter and putting it on a sunny spot on the porch.  That's basically what I've done with agaves that rot in the ground here.  I have a raised set of 12x12 pavers and I just leave them in pots in a full sun spot. 

For soil, most organic materials hold a LOT of water.  If you want it to stay dry you want mostly small gravel with a bit of compost/pine bark/orchid bark mix.  This guy did an experiment with bonsai ingredients by soaking a cup and measuring how much water was lost.  So coconut coir retained about 85% of the water in the cup, and granite chips only retained about 5% 

• Coconut Coir 14.6%
• Akadama 26.7%
• Kanuma Pumice 29%
• Diatomaceous Earth 30.2%
• Compost 31.6%
• Pine Bark 33.3%
• Turface MVP – LECA 36.2%
• Perlite 36.4%
• Commercial Peat Moss 40%
• Vermiculite 41.7%
• Sand – coarse grit 67.6%
• Lava Rock (Scoria) 76.5%
• Expanded Shale 84.6%
• Granite Chips 94.4%

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Did this youtube dude conduct his experiment at various times of the year / in different areas?   Just looking at the breakdown, Would say his results might not be 100% accurate for different areas and at different times of the year..

Here, both Peat Moss and Coco Peat can go bone dry within a couple days this time of year, yet, it will be the peat that retains wayy too much moisture during a cool and wet winter..

Coco Peat retains just the right amount of moisture thru our winters. ..Unless soaked daily -which no one should do at that time of year.

[Allen]

@teddytn has some hardy yucca and agave but I'm not sure about zone 6.

[Colin1110082]

Okay, after reading all this I’ll just abandon the agave plans. Yucca rostrata on the other hand, anyone have any tips about raising one in a New England climate? I emailed the happy valley plants and they said agave could work if I did pea gravel, pumice, sand, ect, which is what one of you said. It will be in a raised bed, maybe a foot above natural elevation. I think it could be possible compared to agave. If they grow them in Florida or Mississippi then it’s possible here 

[Merlyn]

@Silas_Sancona the test was a simple one, just poured water into a cup full of the material.  Weighed before and after draining, and he calculated the percentage water lost.  It's purely how much water the material absorbed, not the evaporation rate vs ambient temp/humidity/etc.  So I'd expect the evaporation rate to be different for a porous rock-ish stuff like Turface vs fine powdery coco coir.  And we know that sand, despite draining a lot of moisture, has a tendency to turn to sludge when mixed with a lot of organics.  So there's definitely some limitations to the test. 

[Silas_Sancona]

  On 7/13/2024 at 12:14 AM, Merlyn said:

@Silas_Sancona the test was a simple one, just poured water into a cup full of the material.  Weighed before and after draining, and he calculated the percentage water lost.  It's purely how much water the material absorbed, not the evaporation rate vs ambient temp/humidity/etc.  So I'd expect the evaporation rate to be different for a porous rock-ish stuff like Turface vs fine powdery coco coir.  And we know that sand, despite draining a lot of moisture, has a tendency to turn to sludge when mixed with a lot of organics.  So there's definitely some limitations to the test. 

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Yep, guy kept it simple, for the simple,  leaving out more important details like the Evap. rate under X conditions during X time of year = the usual on Y.T. " advise " 

Curious if he stirred the organic stuff as he added water to each type to be sure it was wetted evenly and throughly, or just poured a cup of water over it and went about his " analysis "

As far as sand turning to sludge, Unless sedimentary in origin, Sand particles just sit there in the soil mix watching all the organic stuff break down into finer material around them.  Quartz takes it's time breaking down to a really fine sized material.

Sedimentary in origin?  Calcium and or Gypsum content of that kind of Sand, combined with whatever chemical Peat Moss produces / releases as it decomposes,  can combine to initiate some other weird chemical process that can quickly break down both to a sticky, silty anaerobic sludge.. Peat Moss itself is already in the process of turning to sludge when harvested.

Not sure if the same thing / something similar might happen with Coco Peat but haven't noticed it in pots where the two ingredients ended up mixed together.  Definitely notice it holds up much better /  longer than peat moss.

Regardless, if the grain size of any Grit / " Sand " is smaller than this:




 Wouldn't be wise to use it in a soil mix.

[Merlyn]

@Silas_Sancona an evaporation rate test would be interesting, but it might not tell you much more about the individual component than a straight water absorption/retention test.  For example, I've tried coco coir and coco husk, and both soak in enormous amounts of water.  When I tried them in pots the coir tended to compact in, while the chunky husk bits (about 1/4" square) didn't.  Water retention is probably the same, but coir is probably a bad idea in swampy Floriduh.  In dry AZ both might be okay because they don't break down for many decades.

One super-useful thing for me when I found that video was noting that Turface, Perlite, and Vermiculite were all very similar in water retention.  And they absorb *almost* as much water as organics like compost and pine bark.  So just replacing pine bark or coarse organics in a mix with Turface is not going to significantly reduce the water holding capacity.  You've got to do something like add a big percentage of small gravel like your photo.  I used to use Sakrete Paver Base, but adding lots of coarse calcium is probably also a bad idea, as you noted.  So I'm looking for a local source for small gravel that's quartz or granite or shale or something similar.

[Colin1110082]

This is the one gallon size would you say its big enough to go in the ground yet? The 5 gallon I think the next size up height wise is the same but has a lot more leaflets and looks more like a yucca

[Silas_Sancona]

  On 7/13/2024 at 12:53 PM, Merlyn said:

an evaporation rate test would be interesting, but it might not tell you much more about the individual component than a straight water absorption/retention test.  For example, I've tried coco coir and coco husk, and both soak in enormous amounts of water.  When I tried them in pots the coir tended to compact in, while the chunky husk bits (about 1/4" square) didn't.  Water retention is probably the same, but coir is probably a bad idea in swampy Floriduh.  In dry AZ both might be okay because they don't break down for many decades.

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An Evapo. rate analysis would give you an idea on how much moisture is lost under X condition ..more importantly this time of year, even there in FL.

Coco Peat does lay down better than the chunky stuff, but definitely doesn't compact ..Like peat moss does.  Even when completely dry, i can dump out a pot full of the stuff w/ out any clumping.  Straight P.M. will come out of a pot as a highly compressed lump.

Chunk husk definitely stays open, maybe a tad too open here. Not as much of a concern though if you were using it in pots larger than 10 gal though ( Though that would probably be a bit $-cey on a big scale ).

Coco peat / Chunk husk aside, as far as organic stuff here,  breaks down quite a bit faster than people assume..  Only soil component i've come across that wasn't reduced to dust when repotting stuff i'd picked up in FL is Pine Bark  and you could tell that it was in the process of breaking down when sifted out of " old  " soil.


 

 

  On 7/13/2024 at 12:53 PM, Merlyn said:

One super-useful thing for me when I found that video was noting that Turface, Perlite, and Vermiculite were all very similar in water retention.  And they absorb *almost* as much water as organics like compost and pine bark.  So just replacing pine bark or coarse organics in a mix with Turface is not going to significantly reduce the water holding capacity.  You've got to do something like add a big percentage of small gravel like your photo.  I used to use Sakrete Paver Base, but adding lots of coarse calcium is probably also a bad idea, as you noted.  So I'm looking for a local source for small gravel that's quartz or granite or shale or something similar.

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Never used Vermiculite - intentionally- so i can't say how well it hangs onto water.

Here at least, Perlite, ..the bagged stuff, will dry within an hour or two. " Natural " Perlite rock stays moister a lot longer. Remember it would dry out pretty quickly in FL too.

Turface heavy soil mixes, even in 4" pots, can still be moist a day or two after soaking, even this time of year.  Organics like compost, Coco Peat and Peat Moss? completely dry within the same timeframe.



You're looking for Granite, i'm wishing someone sold Sakrete here, lol.. Loved that stuff, esp. in soil mixes put together for plants that grow in calcium - rich soils.

Surprised none of the BB stores out there sell bagged Decomp. granite.  Regardless,  even if they do, you still will have to sift out the sludgy, super fine silty material that can result in a hard, concrete- esque lump.

Every bag of it ..or bucket full of similar grit fished from washes here goes through the screening process..  Don't mind the extra time it might take to get the right sized grain size for X soil mix i'm putting together.




Noticed that the really fine stuff sifted out from collected grit does not result in the same hard, concrete like substrate when soaked as the fine material from the bagged stuff..   Still don't use it ..or much of it..  in soil mixes though. 

[Chester B]

  On 7/13/2024 at 12:06 AM, Colin1110082 said:

Okay, after reading all this I’ll just abandon the agave plans. Yucca rostrata on the other hand, anyone have any tips about raising one in a New England climate? I emailed the happy valley plants and they said agave could work if I did pea gravel, pumice, sand, ect, which is what one of you said. It will be in a raised bed, maybe a foot above natural elevation. I think it could be possible compared to agave. If they grow them in Florida or Mississippi then it’s possible here 

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I would watch some of Tim's videos, and contact him if you have any questions.

(2136) Tim’s Zone Pushing Garden - YouTube

 

[Chris Graves]

I live in San Diego and have many to give away. They are in the ground. I just cut the trunk then they are ready to put into the ground.