Ceiba insignis growers?

[ExperimentalGrower]

Hey folks, anyone growing Ceiba insignis? How do they handle cold/frost? Any cultural particularities? Issues with their roost systems? I have a couple, one of which I’d like to put in the ground.

[Silas_Sancona]

38 minutes ago, ExperimentalGrower said:

Hey folks, anyone growing Ceiba insignis? How do they handle cold/frost? Any cultural particularities? Issues with their roost systems? I have a couple, one of which I’d like to put in the ground.

Grown in Tucson, ..so they will easily take 9b cold where you're at ( can get into the mid /lower 20s at times in Tucson.. Area also sometimes sees a dusting to a couple inches of Snow ..and the specimens there shrug it off ) ..  Typically will drop a good portion ..or all... of it's leaves in winter,  esp. when smaller,  so no water ( ..other than any rainfall you might get ) at that time.  Once a week / every other deep soak in summer and it can grow like a rocket.

Well drained soil is best, but, they're reasonably adaptable to somewhat heavier soil,  if it doesn't stay sloppy wet.

Can get BIG, but will take years to reach a size that might intimidate..  Tough call on roots, but haven't heard of issues, esp if trained to seek water, rather than watering  often enough that most of it's roots sit closer to the surface.

Great tree regardless. ..Think of a Silk Floss Tree ( Ceiba speciosa ) ..only w/ white or cream - colored flowers ..and less ( Sometimes ) no stud - like spikes on the trunk.

[ExperimentalGrower]

3 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Grown in Tucson, ..so they will easily take 9b cold where you're at ( can get into the mid /lower 20s at times in Tucson.. Area also sometimes sees a dusting to a couple inches of Snow ..and the specimens there shrug it off ) ..  Typically will drop a good portion ..or all... of it's leaves in winter,  esp. when smaller,  so no water ( ..other than any rainfall you might get ) at that time.  Once a week / every other deep soak in summer and it can grow like a rocket.

Well drained soil is best, but, they're reasonably adaptable to somewhat heavier soil,  if it doesn't stay sloppy wet.

Can get BIG, but will take years to reach a size that might intimidate..  Tough call on roots, but haven't heard of issues, esp if trained to seek water, rather than watering  often enough that most of it's roots sit closer to the surface.

Great tree regardless. ..Think of a Silk Floss Tree ( Ceiba speciosa ) ..only w/ white or cream - colored flowers ..and less ( Sometimes ) no stud - like spikes on the trunk.

Awesome, thx for the 411. Here in NorCal speciosa grows fine, I’ve seen it growing directly in our adobe clay and seemed to be pretty healthy, just have never seen insignis but I imagine cultural conditions would be similar. Either way, I would be mounding a bit prior to planting. Good call on slow deep watering to send the roots downward.

[Silas_Sancona]

1 hour ago, ExperimentalGrower said:

Awesome, thx for the 411. Here in NorCal speciosa grows fine, I’ve seen it growing directly in our adobe clay and seemed to be pretty healthy, just have never seen insignis but I imagine cultural conditions would be similar. Either way, I would be mounding a bit prior to planting. Good call on slow deep watering to send the roots downward.

Agree, shouldn't be, but, very uncommon anywhere in N. Cal.  Growing conditions would be exactly the same as Floss Silks ..Which also aren't as commonly seen as they should be out there, around San Jose at least. Really nice, smooth- trunked / spike-less specimen in the Willow Glen area of San Jose i've kept an eye on for years. Definitely no issues with the higher clay content in the soils there.

C. insignis is sometimes confused w/ C. chodati  which may be growing in S. Cal. also.  Same exact cultural / growing requirements as the first two species. Some lump them together but supposedly, insignis will have white flowers, while flowers on chodati are a creamy yellow.

All are very easy from seed, but can take approx. 5-8 years to flower after germination.  Will flower in large pots too. Have seen the Red flowering sp. Bombax ceiba  flowering it's head off in a 20gal container. Believe that one was a cutting started from a mature tree.  Those can get HUGE..  Uncommon, but there are at least a few larger specimens scattered around S. Cal.

It and Pseudobombax ellipticum, pink flowered form esp,  can be a little more tender than the above- mentioned Ceiba  when younger, but toughen up a bit as the gain size / wood.

Aloes in Wonderland, and San Marcos Growers have offered the pink flowered Pseudobombax, which is practically un-heard of anywhere in the state..

One of my favorite groups of trees..

[Than]

5 hours ago, ExperimentalGrower said:

Good call on slow deep watering to send the roots downward.

Would that mean smth like dripping irrigation?

[Silas_Sancona]

7 hours ago, Than said:

Would that mean smth like dripping irrigation?

Deep Watering = watering less frequently ..say once every 7-14 days.  When you do water,  you'd let it run for 30 mins to an 1 hour so that the water penetrates deeper into the soil, which encourages deeper penetrating root growth on many ...but not all... trees.

You're essentially copying how the water cycle works in habitat in most places outside the wet, equatorial Tropics.

[Peter]

You are lucky to find 2 insignis; they are very hard to source.  I've never noticed any difference in cold tolerance or growing conditions between insignis and speciosa, so you should be fine.  And along with the white or cream flowers, insignis also quite often gets a bulging trunk which is quite attractive.

[Than]

41 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Deep Watering = watering less frequently ..say once every 7-14 days.  When you do water,  you'd let it run for 30 mins to an 1 hour so that the water penetrates deeper into the soil, which encourages deeper penetrating root growth on many ...but not all... trees.

You're essentially copying how the water cycle works in habitat in most places outside the wet, equatorial Tropics.

Such useful info! Thank you, I'll do that. However, in 100+ F in the summer once a week would be enough?

[Silas_Sancona]

43 minutes ago, Than said:

Such useful info! Thank you, I'll do that. However, in 100+ F in the summer once a week would be enough?

Once a week deep soak is about standard for most.  Here,  i'll soak stuff ( planted,  not in pots )  2x's a month during the summer. Other than what falls when it rains, nothing gets extra water November - about late Feb / or March ..depending on how wet / dry it has been.  Smaller trees, even the tough stuff gets watered once a week, for the first 3 years or so ...but only during the warmer months..
 

Most " desert " trees / many others from the dry / " deciduous " tropics can go 4-8 months w/ out a drop of water and do fine ..In those regions, majority of growth occurs in response to a 3-5 month window when summer Monsoon rains occur. In spring, ..typically the driest part of the year,  many of those trees are bare. Is an evolutionary adaptation to drought. Within 2-4 weeks of a couple good summer soakings as the rains kick in, same trees are lush and exploding in growth.

  In fact, water many of our natives / near- natives too much and they'll be more prone to wind throw during storms / can experience other stress issues. Why?  those trees didn't evolve to need a lot of water, all the time..  They evolved to seek out what they need during drought.  Our native Mesquites for example, can send roots 40-200ft deep to access water.  " South American " Mesquites, which are also cultivated here, often have a root system that is closer to the surface ( Overall climate is similar where they come from, though slightly more moisture available  in those areas than in " arid " regions up here )  Those are the species / cultivars that suffer a majority of storm - related damage among that group of trees here.

Desert Ironwood ( Olneya tesota ) can survive on as little as two or three pulses of penetrating rainfall per year. They'll do fine w/ a little more moisture than that of course,  but,  Not a good " Lawn " Tree ( ...Where they might be irrigated 2 or 3x a week.. )

Several CA native trees are the same way as well, esp Oaks.. Water them too often, esp. during the warmer months ( Not adapted to that )  and you're more likely to create problems.  Pretty sure  the same idea applies to many trees from the Mediterranean regions on that side of the world as well.



Only things that typically like lots of water would be trees from the tropics, cooler / wetter mountainous regions outside the tropics where consistent rainfall is spread out across an entire year, and " Riparian " species  = tree sps that grow along rivers where surface water is present all year ..or 85% of the time,  esp. during the warmer portion of the year  ..Stuff like Willows, Sycamore / Plane Tree, Pines, many Ficus, Avocado, Bald Cypress, etc..

Trees like Ash, Sycamore, Cottonwood, ..a couple Oaks, and a few other " water lovers " here will only be found growing near a " wash "  where water is flowing most of the year, or is easily accessible just below the surface during parts of the year where there is no surface water present. 

A dry " wash ", a regional name here for a creek / river that is dry part of the year, may look dry when walking through one  but, if you dug down about 3 -9ft, ..or deeper.. you'd see the soil is typically still moist, even after several weeks of no rainfall.


While there are exceptions to this " general " rule of course,  because rainfall is usually more consistent, across an entire year, in the wetter tropics, or in forests of higher elevation / latitude areas outside the tropics, most trees from either area don't need to " seek out " water to survive a long dry spell since a dry spell in either area might only last a few days / couple weeks  ..so a majority of their " feeder " roots typically fan out much closer to the surface, rather than drill down to seek moisture deep into the soil. 

Those are the ones that have to be watered more consistently, otherwise they'll croak.  Additionally, more often than not, those are the kinds of trees which can cause issues ( breaking sidewalks / roots breaking water / sewer lines seeking water = " Tropical " tees like many Ficus, Sissoo, or Temperate tree sps like Ash / Mulberry )  As mentioned, there are some exceptions though. 

You can train some water lovers to seek water deeper, but, overall, they'll still keep their root zone higher ..closer to the surface, compared to the other group of trees.

A popular Oak from your part of the globe was widely planted in parts of my old neighborhood in CA. A tough, drought- tolerant tree, but it's roots can lift / break sidewalks / water / sewer lines. In those cases, the individual specimens were not watered correctly when young, so most of their roots stayed closer to the surface. Hard or impossible to correct when the tree is older.

On the other hand, there are HUGE, old Valley Oak specimens, a CA native, in other areas of town that you'd think would be destroying everything underground, yet aren't. ..those trees were left to seek out moisture from the water table, rather than being " babied " ( Babied = provided frequent, surface irrigation ) as they developed / grew.

Overall, toughest selection of trees will almost always originate from desert / near -desert ( ...Which includes drier Med. regions ) or dry tropical forest regions of the world.

 

[ExperimentalGrower]

3 hours ago, Peter said:

You are lucky to find 2 insignis; they are very hard to source.  I've never noticed any difference in cold tolerance or growing conditions between insignis and speciosa, so you should be fine.  And along with the white or cream flowers, insignis also quite often gets a bulging trunk which is quite attractive.

Indeed, the best known example I’ve seen is at The Huntington in Pasadena/LA. Theirs is very big and impressive. They are difficult to source, I was looking everywhere for a solid year and got lucky with Top Tropicals in Florida.

[Silas_Sancona]

19 minutes ago, ExperimentalGrower said:

Indeed, the best known example I’ve seen is at The Huntington in Pasadena/LA. Theirs is very big and impressive. They are difficult to source, I was looking everywhere for a solid year and got lucky with Top Tropicals in Florida.

 

Ever so often, Aridlands Greenhouse in Tucson, will offer insignis seedlings / slightly  older saplings ..and another sp. from Sonora, C. aesculifolia / parvifolia,  which has also done well down there. I need to repot mine this year.

If you time it right ..Think it was when i'd visited in May one year,  Floss Silk / insignis ( ..or chodati?? ) specimens at the L.A. arboretum will be full of opening seed pods also. Just look for the cottony " fluff " all over the ground below / near their grove near the entrance.

Awaiting any observations of the Bombax ceiba  specimens at the arboretum setting seed. Should be old enough by now. Flowering for over a decade.

[Than]

2 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Once a week deep soak is about standard for most.  Here,  i'll soak stuff ( planted,  not in pots )  2x's a month during the summer. Other than what falls when it rains, nothing gets extra water November - about late Feb / or March ..depending on how wet / dry it has been.  Smaller trees, even the tough stuff gets watered once a week, for the first 3 years or so ...but only during the warmer months..
 

Most " desert " trees / many others from the dry / " deciduous " tropics can go 4-8 months w/ out a drop of water and do fine ..In those regions, majority of growth occurs in response to a 3-5 month window when summer Monsoon rains occur. In spring, ..typically the driest part of the year,  many of those trees are bare. Is an evolutionary adaptation to drought. Within 2-4 weeks of a couple good summer soakings as the rains kick in, same trees are lush and exploding in growth.

  In fact, water many of our natives / near- natives too much and they'll be more prone to wind throw during storms / can experience other stress issues. Why?  those trees didn't evolve to need a lot of water, all the time..  They evolved to seek out what they need during drought.  Our native Mesquites for example, can send roots 40-200ft deep to access water.  " South American " Mesquites, which are also cultivated here, often have a root system that is closer to the surface ( Overall climate is similar where they come from, though slightly more moisture available  in those areas than in " arid " regions up here )  Those are the species / cultivars that suffer a majority of storm - related damage among that group of trees here.

Desert Ironwood ( Olneya tesota ) can survive on as little as two or three pulses of penetrating rainfall per year. They'll do fine w/ a little more moisture than that of course,  but,  Not a good " Lawn " Tree ( ...Where they might be irrigated 2 or 3x a week.. )

Several CA native trees are the same way as well, esp Oaks.. Water them too often, esp. during the warmer months ( Not adapted to that )  and you're more likely to create problems.  Pretty sure  the same idea applies to many trees from the Mediterranean regions on that side of the world as well.



Only things that typically like lots of water would be trees from the tropics, cooler / wetter mountainous regions outside the tropics where consistent rainfall is spread out across an entire year, and " Riparian " species  = tree sps that grow along rivers where surface water is present all year ..or 85% of the time,  esp. during the warmer portion of the year  ..Stuff like Willows, Sycamore / Plane Tree, Pines, many Ficus, Avocado, Bald Cypress, etc..

Trees like Ash, Sycamore, Cottonwood, ..a couple Oaks, and a few other " water lovers " here will only be found growing near a " wash "  where water is flowing most of the year, or is easily accessible just below the surface during parts of the year where there is no surface water present. 

A dry " wash ", a regional name here for a creek / river that is dry part of the year, may look dry when walking through one  but, if you dug down about 3 -9ft, ..or deeper.. you'd see the soil is typically still moist, even after several weeks of no rainfall.


While there are exceptions to this " general " rule of course,  because rainfall is usually more consistent, across an entire year, in the wetter tropics, or in forests of higher elevation / latitude areas outside the tropics, most trees from either area don't need to " seek out " water to survive a long dry spell since a dry spell in either area might only last a few days / couple weeks  ..so a majority of their " feeder " roots typically fan out much closer to the surface, rather than drill down to seek moisture deep into the soil. 

Those are the ones that have to be watered more consistently, otherwise they'll croak.  Additionally, more often than not, those are the kinds of trees which can cause issues ( breaking sidewalks / roots breaking water / sewer lines seeking water = " Tropical " tees like many Ficus, Sissoo, or Temperate tree sps like Ash / Mulberry )  As mentioned, there are some exceptions though. 

You can train some water lovers to seek water deeper, but, overall, they'll still keep their root zone higher ..closer to the surface, compared to the other group of trees.

A popular Oak from your part of the globe was widely planted in parts of my old neighborhood in CA. A tough, drought- tolerant tree, but it's roots can lift / break sidewalks / water / sewer lines. In those cases, the individual specimens were not watered correctly when young, so most of their roots stayed closer to the surface. Hard or impossible to correct when the tree is older.

On the other hand, there are HUGE, old Valley Oak specimens, a CA native, in other areas of town that you'd think would be destroying everything underground, yet aren't. ..those trees were left to seek out moisture from the water table, rather than being " babied " ( Babied = provided frequent, surface irrigation ) as they developed / grew.

Overall, toughest selection of trees will almost always originate from desert / near -desert ( ...Which includes drier Med. regions ) or dry tropical forest regions of the world.

 

This is why I love this forum. Thank you!

[Tom in Tucson]

On 1/10/2024 at 3:32 PM, Silas_Sancona said:

Grown in Tucson, ..so they will easily take 9b cold where you're at ( can get into the mid /lower 20s at times in Tucson.. Area also sometimes sees a dusting to a couple inches of Snow ..and the specimens there shrug it off ) ..  Typically will drop a good portion ..or all... of it's leaves in winter,  esp. when smaller,  so no water ( ..other than any rainfall you might get ) at that time.  Once a week / every other deep soak in summer and it can grow like a rocket.

Well drained soil is best, but, they're reasonably adaptable to somewhat heavier soil,  if it doesn't stay sloppy wet.

Can get BIG, but will take years to reach a size that might intimidate..  Tough call on roots, but haven't heard of issues, esp if trained to seek water, rather than watering  often enough that most of it's roots sit closer to the surface.

Great tree regardless. ..Think of a Silk Floss Tree ( Ceiba speciosa ) ..only w/ white or cream - colored flowers ..and less ( Sometimes ) no stud - like spikes on the trunk.

I agree with all your comments except the last one. The trees I've seen that appear to be true Ceiba insignis, have larger trunk thorns than the very variable C. speciosa. In addition to finding the true species for sale, it takes years for the seedlings to get large enough for an ID. By the time the seedlings are large enough to find out if you got lucky, the nursery either goes out of business, or stops selling them.

Hi 76°, Lo 43°

[Silas_Sancona]

1 minute ago, Tom in Tucson said:

I agree with all your comments except the last one. The trees I've seen that appear to be true Ceiba insignis, have larger trunk thorns than the very variable C. speciosa. In addition to finding the true species for sale, it takes years for the seedlings to get large enough for an ID. By the time the seedlings are large enough to find out if you got lucky, the nursery either goes out of business, or stops selling them.

Hi 76°, Lo 43°

I'd forgot to edit the part regarding the " spikey - ness of the trunks on insignis ..they have em' for sure  ..though i know i've seen specimens, true to ID that were less studded.

Talk to Bob and Toni... You know where. They sell insignis.. I trust their ID 100%

[Tom in Tucson]

2 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

I'd forgot to edit the part regarding the " spikey - ness of the trunks on insignis ..they have em' for sure  ..though i know i've seen specimens, true to ID that were less studded.

Talk to Bob and Toni... You know where. They sell insignis.. I trust their ID 100%

You are nearly clairvoyant. I bought one from them (in addition to much more) last week. One thing I know about Bob, is that he's a stickler for accuracy. I don't know Toni that well yet. One species I also bought that I know is the "real deal" is one he helped to locate and describe; Agave turneri.

Hi 76°, Lo 43°

[Silas_Sancona]

3 minutes ago, Tom in Tucson said:

You are nearly clairvoyant. I bought one from them (in addition to much more) last week. One thing I know about Bob, is that he's a stickler for accuracy. I don't know Toni that well yet. One species I also bought that I know is the "real deal" is one he helped to locate and describe; Agave turneri.

Hi 76°, Lo 43°

Yep, Bob has assured my thought on a couple IDs i wasn't totally sure on in the past..  Toni is just as articulate and " On The Ball, so to say.. Good people.