Encephalartos horridus seedling.. issue/deficency?

[Calosphace]

Ignore all the debris (stormed today) and weeds (cant be bothered) lol

Last year I purchased a seedling E. horridus Dwarf form. I know these don't do much initially so the lack of growth I was ignoring but I am alarmed by the chlorotic edges

It's under a southeast-facing awning to somewhat control water since I'm in FL. I don't think it is root rot as i can see bit of root sticking out of bottom and also no weeds except the prostrate spurge end up in it.

I will be up-potting it in a few days so I won't be fertilizing it now probably but if anyone has input on it/how often and substrate I'd appreciate it. I believe unless I was using up leftover palm or succulent mix that it is in Foxfarm Cocoloco with additional perlite added for drainage, same thing I grow Chocolate daisy, Agastache Kudos, and most succulents in.

 I have a palm 6-1-8 fert and an Osmocote Plus 15-9-12 available as well as an orchid foliar one

[Merlyn]

I've had difficulty with Horridus, Arenarius, and Trispinosus here in Central FL.  They tend to get root rot after the winter and then die.  That being said, I have a NatxHorr and HorrxNat in the ground in a raised sandy bed and they are doing okay after ~2 years.  I also have a NatxHorr that's been in a pot for ~2 years in full sun & rain but a very loose 75% inorganic potting mix. 

All that being said, yours doesn't look too unusual.  The leaf tips being slightly yellow might be a Magnesium deficiency, but it's hard to say for sure.  I don't know if I could diagnose a root rot problem.  Any time that happened to mine the fronds looked okay but it just didn't flush in the spring like it should.  Then I'd dig them up and discover that the entire root system was mush.  Cycads like these can be grown in almost pure perlite, they just need more frequent fertilizer to grow okay.  I've done okay here with any standard "palm special" type fertilizer, as they have the extra Magnesium, Manganese, and other minors that cycads like.

[Calosphace]

Oof, I hadn't realized they were so difficult in our area thanks for the tip about root rot I had no idea. I selected this species over other "blue cycads" as it seemed most suited for permanent pot culture based on overall size.

By after winter do you mean spring? or after periods of near-freezing + cold? I took mine inside whenever it got cold below 45 and during cool season in general I kept it under porch awning (much larger) so it was kept absolutely dry. Though, now I am wondering if I should do the same when multiple days of rain are expected.. I'll add more perlite when I up-pot.

The roots were tannish and solid when I checked them so I'm hoping it isn't rot. I can hit it with a little bit of epsom salt I suppose.

[Tracy]

16 hours ago, Calosphace said:

Ignore all the debris (stormed today) and weeds (cant be bothered) lol

Last year I purchased a seedling E. horridus Dwarf form. I know these don't do much initially so the lack of growth I was ignoring but I am alarmed by the chlorotic edges

It's under a southeast-facing awning to somewhat control water since I'm in FL. I don't think it is root rot as i can see bit of root sticking out of bottom and also no weeds except the prostrate spurge end up in it.

I will be up-potting it in a few days so I won't be fertilizing it now probably but if anyone has input on it/how often and substrate I'd appreciate it. I believe unless I was using up leftover palm or succulent mix that it is in Foxfarm Cocoloco with additional perlite added for drainage, same thing I grow Chocolate daisy, Agastache Kudos, and most succulents in.

 I have a palm 6-1-8 fert and an Osmocote Plus 15-9-12 available as well as an orchid foliar one

It isn't clear how long you have had the plant, but if the leaf is the oldest, it is normal and nothing to worry about.  I looked at one of my Encephalartos horridus that had some old leaves doing this but I apparently trimmed them off.  

Foliar feeding g does nothing for cycads.  Applying liquids to the foliage of blue cycads only accelerates the loss of the waxy coating that gives them the color.  I accidentally sprayed a new flush with a liquid insecticide due to overspray from a nearby plant.  That flush always had green er spots on the blue background from that.

On fertilizer,  go with the palm blend versus the ratios on your Osmocote and make sure to use slow release.  Skip the Epsom Salt too.  Sounds like you have used a fast draining soil which is key.  I like pumice but understand it is hard to find in Florida so will defer to Merlyn's advice on the best mix readily available in Florida.  Encephalartos horridus has no problem with lows in the 30's and even high 20's as long as it warms during the day and roots are not saturated. 

Example of the natural process below.  This leaf was pressed down by the weight of two cones, so the leaflets had premature yellowing from being bent for months.  The flush below is still green, but will eventually go through the same progression.   This isn't blue because it is a hybrid with a green species,  Encephalartos horridus x woodii. 

Don't stress be patient and don't try to baby it too much.

[Merlyn]

I checked my notes in my spreadsheet, the last pure Horridus I tried was repotted around October 2020.  I had it in soil that was way too heavy on the organics, and it was sitting in my nursery area in lots of shade and with daily sprinkling from dripline fan sprayers.  So it's hard to judge which of the 3 things were the worst part, but I noted it died from crown rot and not root rot.  Some of my other deaths (Tri, Nat x Tri, Arenarius, Alt x Lehmannii, Nat x Arenarius, (Alt x Woodii) x (Arenarius x Tri), Horridus x ???, Nat x Horr) over the past few years have been visually okay in the fall but failed to flush in the spring.  When I dug them up I found squishy tan/brown main roots that were firm up towards the base of the caudex.  I tried beheading some of them and rerooting in pure perlite, but they all ended up dying.  I am theorizing that they didn't like the continuously wet soil at my place, because the water table is only about 6 feet down.  Even in the middle of winter soil is still damp at about 6 inches below the surface.

When I visited Tom Broome's Cycad Jungle he had a bunch of potted blues, some pretty big Arenarius, Horridus, Lehmanii, etc.  They were all in an open-sided greenhouse, sheltered from direct rain.  I recall asking him about that. He said he hand watered them as needed, and that was the only way to keep them blue in Floriduh.  Otherwise the heavy daily thunderstorms washed off the blue waxy coating, as Tracy mentioned.  Hand watering also lets him control moisture and avoid root and crown rot. 

Keep in mind I've only been trying to grow cycads for about 4-5 years, and there are people with decades of experience on here and other forums.  Personally I think most of the "blues" would do great permanently in pots, and I suspect that the majority of the closely-genetically-related group below will all need similar protection from heavy rains:

[Calosphace]

Oh it appears to be similar to those old leaves then, appreciate the pic Tracy, I shall leave it alone

I purchased the plant last year around late summer as a seedling. Even well-adapted coontie in my experience (and the adults flush twice a year for me with 0 maintenance) would not have more leaves yet so I wasn't concerned about that, just wanted to make sure it wasn't deficient in the meantime.

I've always wanted to try working with a pumice mix but you are right, it is not something carried by the local Ace lol

That makes sense that foliar fertilizer wouldn't do much. By orchid fertilizer I meant spraying substrate, it's what I do with my Blue oil fern as guides said to do so to avoid burning it. Not sure how legitimate that is but it's what I do for other things sometimes if I'm afraid I might burn but also think it might need something. Second-hand placebo

 

On 7/11/2023 at 12:59 PM, Merlyn said:

When I visited Tom Broome's Cycad Jungle he had a bunch of potted blues, some pretty big Arenarius, Horridus, Lehmanii, etc.  They were all in an open-sided greenhouse, sheltered from direct rain.  I recall asking him about that. He said he hand watered them as needed, and that was the only way to keep them blue in Floriduh.  Otherwise the heavy daily thunderstorms washed off the blue waxy coating, as Tracy mentioned.  Hand watering also lets him control moisture and avoid root and crown rot.

 

Handwatering huh? Perhaps I should be horrified by the fact I've been hitting it with the hose..

All great info, though, thanks! I really like cycads and collect "prehistoric" plants in general (my other favorite non-flowering plant are Selaginella). For my personal collection I'm satisfied with one blue cycad, but I'd love to more in-person.  Sounds like a cool trip. They're stunning in pictures but that doesn't compare to being next to the real thing.

Sorry to hear about those struggles. My water table is also quite high. I dug once in February (dry season!) when I was constructing my frog pond and I hit it at ~4 ft.  My drainage at the top level is mostly excellent though judging by perennials I have grown, just insufficient for anything with longer taproots that isn't adapted for these conditions which I assume would be this cycad. Fortunately, I'm mostly interested in native species when it comes to "woodies" so this doesn't impact me much. The few it does eg scrub ones so far survive by potting them up, sawing off bottom of pot and just letting them grow like that lol ("lazy raised bed" method)

Interesting chart. I suppose if I lose this specimen, at least there's a lot of other options

[Tracy]

17 minutes ago, Calosphace said:

Even well-adapted coontie in my experience (and the adults flush twice a year for me with 0 maintenance) would not have more leaves yet so I wasn't concerned about that, just wanted to make sure it wasn't deficient in the meantime.

Young blue Cycads may push small flushes a couple of times per year but once they get larger it seems a bit more unusual to get more than one flush.  I do get flushes in the same year as cones on E horridus & E trispinosis as well as the hybrids of them.  Others may want to weigh in on my observation of flush frequency of the blue cycads if they are seeing something different.  The larger green cycads can and do flush more frequently in some cases once they get established but that's a different story.

 

On 7/11/2023 at 9:59 AM, Merlyn said:

Just curious as to the source on this tree?  It looks like the sample size was 1 or 2 depending on species and results for specific plants varied if I'm interpreting the plant descriptions correctly (e.g. E princeps 1 versus E princeps 2).  I would enjoy reading more of the detail behind it.  I was a little surprised where Encephalartos altenstenii came out on this too.  I would have expected it closer to E lebomboensis and further from E lehmannii.

Thanks in advance Merlyn.

[Merlyn]

@Tracy this was a research paper:

Species relationships and phylogenetic diversity of the African genus Encephalartos Lehm. (Zamiaceae)

January 2023

South African Journal of Botany 152(80-):165-173

DOI:10.1016/j.sajb.2022.12.001

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/366054594_Species_relationships_and_phylogenetic_diversity_of_the_African_genus_Encephalartos_Lehm_Zamiaceae

I was also very surprised that Altensteinii ended up in the same group as the blues, but they are in the same tree area as Natalensis, Woodii, Transvenosus, Lebomboensis, Aemulans, Senticosus, etc.  There are a few other surprises too, like the group that was previously thought to be very close is Hildebrandtii, Kisambo and Gratus...but that group also includes Sclavoi and Turneri!  Others are not too surprising, like Manikensis, Munchii, Pterogonus, Concinnus, and Chimanimaniensis being in a very tight grouping.

My experience here in the swamp of Florida is that entire group from Transvenosus to Horridus have been prone to root and crown rot.  But the nearby leg Lebomboensis, Aemulans and Senticosus have been trouble-free.  So from that perspective the genetic analysis makes a lot of sense and explains some of my running problems. 

[Merlyn]

@Calosphace so far most cycads have been okay here in the ground, it's mostly just the "blues" that have problems.  In my case I think it's just that the top 1-2" of soil might dry out in my yard, but at 4" down it's almost always moist.  Time will tell on the ones I've planted in a raised sandy area.  But I'm hopeful!    At the moment I've got 238 cycads in the ground, and have lost 21 to crown or root rot over the past ~5 years.  Of those 14 were in that genetic grouping, 5 were Cycas or Ceratozamia, and most of the others were from heavy frost damage or deaths of young seedlings.  If I look at that genetic group I've got 26 alive and 14 dead = 35% mortality rate.  In other Encephalartos I've got 71 alive and 2 dead...and both of those were small seedlings.  More or less, I'm batting 100% on everything outside of the blues genetic group.  In pots, however, I don't think I've lost any of the blues...at least not that I see in my spreadsheet notes.

I haven't found pumice locally, but Ewing Irrigation carries 40lb bags of Turface MVP for about $14.  It's fired clay pebbles and holds about the same moisture as perlite or pumice.  But it has cation exchange capacity that perlite lacks.  I'm planning to replace perlite in my mixes with Turface MVP.

I'm ambivalent on the hose watering.  There are literally millions of palms and cycads grown in nurseries with overhead watering.  If it really was that dangerous, you'd think the nurseries would be out of business...or losing plants by the millions.  It's probably a good idea to not spray the crown directly, just to be on the safe side.

[happypalms]

On 7/12/2023 at 2:59 AM, Merlyn said:

I checked my notes in my spreadsheet, the last pure Horridus I tried was repotted around October 2020.  I had it in soil that was way too heavy on the organics, and it was sitting in my nursery area in lots of shade and with daily sprinkling from dripline fan sprayers.  So it's hard to judge which of the 3 things were the worst part, but I noted it died from crown rot and not root rot.  Some of my other deaths (Tri, Nat x Tri, Arenarius, Alt x Lehmannii, Nat x Arenarius, (Alt x Woodii) x (Arenarius x Tri), Horridus x ???, Nat x Horr) over the past few years have been visually okay in the fall but failed to flush in the spring.  When I dug them up I found squishy tan/brown main roots that were firm up towards the base of the caudex.  I tried beheading some of them and rerooting in pure perlite, but they all ended up dying.  I am theorizing that they didn't like the continuously wet soil at my place, because the water table is only about 6 feet down.  Even in the middle of winter soil is still damp at about 6 inches below the surface.

When I visited Tom Broome's Cycad Jungle he had a bunch of potted blues, some pretty big Arenarius, Horridus, Lehmanii, etc.  They were all in an open-sided greenhouse, sheltered from direct rain.  I recall asking him about that. He said he hand watered them as needed, and that was the only way to keep them blue in Floriduh.  Otherwise the heavy daily thunderstorms washed off the blue waxy coating, as Tracy mentioned.  Hand watering also lets him control moisture and avoid root and crown rot. 

Keep in mind I've only been trying to grow cycads for about 4-5 years, and there are people with decades of experience on here and other forums.  Personally I think most of the "blues" would do great permanently in pots, and I suspect that the majority of the closely-genetically-related group below will all need similar protection from heavy rains:

Merlin your a true gardener you know your stuff 👍

[Merlyn]

On 8/21/2023 at 5:21 AM, happypalms said:

Merlin your a true gardener you know your stuff 👍

Hah, it's more like OCD notekeeping!  I am definitely a novice to most palms and cycads, only having done any serious gardening for about 5 years.  As the demotivational quote goes, "It could be that the purpose of my life is only to serve as a warning to others." 

[Tracy]

On 7/12/2023 at 4:08 PM, Calosphace said:

On 7/11/2023 at 9:59 AM, Merlyn said:

 

Handwatering huh? Perhaps I should be horrified by the fact I've been hitting it with the hose..

 

On 7/10/2023 at 3:45 PM, Calosphace said:

I'm guessing that you have blasted off the waxy coating.  Despite a wet winter/spring here the waxy coating on this seedling of Encephalartos horridus x (horridus x woodii) is still much bluer than your plant (new leaf flushing has a little more purple tint which will go to blue as it hardens off).  This seedling of mine actually is quite blue given it's parentage having the half woodii on the pollen side.  Adjacent seedlings are from a female Encephalartos horridus x woodii back crossed with Encephalartos horridus x woodii pollen, and they show very little blue like their mother plant.

The point is that with a little more care on how you apply the water, you should be seeing a little more blue color and especially on the newest flushed leaves.

[happypalms]

11 hours ago, Tracy said:

 

I'm guessing that you have blasted off the waxy coating.  Despite a wet winter/spring here the waxy coating on this seedling of Encephalartos horridus x (horridus x woodii) is still much bluer than your plant (new leaf flushing has a little more purple tint which will go to blue as it hardens off).  This seedling of mine actually is quite blue given it's parentage having the half woodii on the pollen side.  Adjacent seedlings are from a female Encephalartos horridus x woodii back crossed with Encephalartos horridus x woodii pollen, and they show very little blue like their mother plant.

The point is that with a little more care on how you apply the water, you should be seeing a little more blue color and especially on the newest flushed leaves.

Interesting subject washing away the bloom blueberries are the same 

[Merlyn]

5 hours ago, happypalms said:

Interesting subject washing away the bloom blueberries are the same 

Yes, with the daily afternoon thunderstorms here in Florida, the "blues" end up being basically green with a hint of bluish tint.  The only true "blue" cycads I've seen in Florida were at Tom Broome's Cycad Jungle.  He had a bunch of Arenarius, Horridus, Lehmannii, etc.  The ones in a greenhouse (glass roof, open sides) were hand watered and very silver-blue.  He said that he was careful to never pour water on the leaves or caudex.  He had a few outside the greenhouse with barely a hint of blue.

[Calosphace]

Yeah it was not the lack of blueness I was concerned about as I know some of the hose water had hit it and impacted the overcoat. However, I will say it is protected from overhead water due to it being under an awning on a south-facing wall.  I have had cacti dry out in this spot so I know it is protected from rain. It was much bluer in appearance at the start of the year. It is quite hard to photograph but it is like the remaining wax is sitting on top of a yellower leaf as they senesce, causing it to look more green than before.

 I up-potted it in July to a much larger terracotta pot and it has been doing the same which is what I had hoped. I inspected the roots and they looked fine and were still hard to the touch. I think I just need to be patient

Also apparently I had added a few inches of pure perlite at the very bottom, perhaps influenced by how drainage works in terrariums or to prevent it wicking moisture runfoff on the driveway? I have no idea lol but that also might help.