I have been waiting several years for this one to cone in order to HOPEFULLY ID it.

Ca

Can someone tell me which encephalartos this might be. I was leaning towards scalvoi, but what do I know? It offsets easily. It receives lots of sun.

Thanks

Richard

 

Richard

Based on the leaf thorns and overall frond size/shape I'd guess Gratus.  I don't know if the cones match or not.  I think Sclavoi has thornless, cupped leaves.  But I might be wrong. 

3 hours ago, GDLWyverex said:

I have been waiting several years for this one to cone in order to HOPEFULLY ID it.

Ca

Can someone tell me which encephalartos this might be. I was leaning towards scalvoi, but what do I know? It offsets easily. It receives lots of sun.

Thanks

Richard

 

Richard

Cones are female on your specimen.  I have a male Encephalartos tuneri and an unknown sex (hasn't coned yet).  Color of cones on Encephalartos tuneri are yellow to tan.  Leaflets are either toothless or up to three spines according to Loran Whitelock's description.   Leaflet insertion is like a half closed venetian blind. Examples below on my two.

40 minutes ago, Tracy said:

Cones are female on your specimen.  I have a male Encephalartos tuneri and an unknown sex (hasn't coned yet).  Color of cones on Encephalartos tuneri are yellow to tan.  Leaflets are either toothless or up to three spines according to Loran Whitelock's description.   Leaflet insertion is like a half closed venetian blind. Examples below on my two.

I assume that you are suggesting that mine may be E. Turneri, which I also have been contemplating

They have many traits in common with variation that might be accounted for by the fact that yours seems to be MUCH larger than mine.

My leaflets are more like 1/4 closed venetian blinds with blades further apart than yours

Mine has MANY fewer diminishing leaflets at the base of each rachis

Mine gets lots of fitered sun and some direct sunlight daily so I assume that if mine is E. Turneri, that it is still maturing or I am seeing a degree of species variability.

Thanks

Richard

@Tracywhen Gene suggested my unidentified one might be a Turneri, I looked through the description but completely ignored the "toothy" version.  The Ribaue/Shakara type does have the couple of upper side teeth near the insertion point, and sometimes a tooth on the bottom edge.  And apparently there are intergrade populations between Gratus and Turneri in the Namuato and Malema areas.  These are all in sort of a 100 mile area.  Here's some additional photos:

https://www.cycadlist.org/taxon.php?Taxon_ID=354

 

10 hours ago, GDLWyverex said:

I assume that you are suggesting that mine may be E. Turneri, which I also have been contemplating

They have many traits in common with variation that might be accounted for by the fact that yours seems to be MUCH larger than mine.

My leaflets are more like 1/4 closed venetian blinds with blades further apart than yours

Mine has MANY fewer diminishing leaflets at the base of each rachis

Mine gets lots of fitered sun and some direct sunlight daily so I assume that if mine is E. Turneri, that it is still maturing or I am seeing a degree of species variability.

Thanks

Richard

 

1 hour ago, Merlyn said:

@Tracywhen Gene suggested my unidentified one might be a Turneri, I looked through the description but completely ignored the "toothy" version.  The Ribaue/Shakara type does have the couple of upper side teeth near the insertion point, and sometimes a tooth on the bottom edge.  And apparently there are intergrade populations between Gratus and Turneri in the Namuato and Malema areas.  These are all in sort of a 100 mile area.  Here's some additional photos:

https://www.cycadlist.org/taxon.php?Taxon_ID=354

 

My apologies.  Those are Encephalartos sclavoi, I don't know what I was thinking when typing .  I even was reading the description from Loran Whitelock's book from the page on Encephalartos sclavoi.  I was showing Encephalartos sclavoi to compare with your plsnt Richard, so you can see both similarities and differences. Maybe it is the photos of your plant but I am not seeing the Venetian blind effect to leaflet insertion.   You can see better in person.  It will be helpful to watch the cones development further as well.  Do they develop visible peduncles as they push?  Does the cone color change as they approach receptive size?  It is possible that it is a hybrid as well. 

On the Encephalartos turneri front I would be looking for even tighter leaflet spacing than my Encephalartos sclsvoi.  Richard, if yours are less tight that would seem to rule out turneri for your plant .  My error again on writing turneri when I was showing and quoting descriptions of sclavoi.

@Tracy ah gotcha.  I read that Turneri have "dwarf orange cones" which didn't quite match up with Richard's cone.  I'm guessing it'll change color a bit as it grows.  If it turns yellow-tan then that would be a good argument for being a "slightly spiny" version of Sclavoi.  The description says 1-3 spikes top and bottom, which seems reasonable.  If the cone stays green-yellow then Bubalinus could be an ID.

2 hours ago, Tracy said:

 

My apologies.  Those are Encephalartos sclavoi, I don't know what I was thinking when typing .  I even was reading the description from Loran Whitelock's book from the page on Encephalartos sclavoi.  I was showing Encephalartos sclavoi to compare with your plsnt Richard, so you can see both similarities and differences. Maybe it is the photos of your plant but I am not seeing the Venetian blind effect to leaflet insertion.   You can see better in person.  It will be helpful to watch the cones development further as well.  Do they develop visible peduncles as they push?  Does the cone color change as they approach receptive size?  It is possible that it is a hybrid as well. 

On the Encephalartos turneri front I would be looking for even tighter leaflet spacing than my Encephalartos sclsvoi.  Richard, if yours are less tight that would seem to rule out turneri for your plant .  My error again on writing turneri when I was showing and quoting descriptions of sclavoi.

Apparently, one of the telling indicators is that mature E. Turneri has leaflets with revolute margins, which mine has. I found an article at https://www.cycad.org/documents/TCN-Focus-June-2007-Encephalartos-turneri.pdf

which shed iight on IDing this species. It apparently is wide spread trough several habitats and ecotypes in Mozambique and exibits different morphologies on a per community basis, including a community which may be a hibrid and another community which is a dwarf variant.

 

Richard

1 hour ago, Merlyn said:

@Tracy ah gotcha.  I read that Turneri have "dwarf orange cones" which didn't quite match up with Richard's cone.  I'm guessing it'll change color a bit as it grows.  If it turns yellow-tan then that would be a good argument for being a "slightly spiny" version of Sclavoi.  The description says 1-3 spikes top and bottom, which seems reasonable.  If the cone stays green-yellow then Bubalinus could be an ID.

Does this photo of one of the fronds from my plant exhibit the venetian insertion effect?

Thanks

Richard

1 hour ago, Merlyn said:

@Tracy ah gotcha.  I read that Turneri have "dwarf orange cones" which didn't quite match up with Richard's cone.  I'm guessing it'll change color a bit as it grows.  If it turns yellow-tan then that would be a good argument for being a "slightly spiny" version of Sclavoi.  The description says 1-3 spikes top and bottom, which seems reasonable.  If the cone stays green-yellow then Bubalinus could be an ID.

I dont see the decurrent leaf or stem that is a tell tale of Bubalinus

Richard

1 hour ago, GDLWyverex said:

Does this photo of one of the fronds from my plant exhibit the venetian insertion effect?

Thanks

Richard

On this photo I don't see any leaflet thorns.  Is that a "median leaflet?"  If so, then maybe I was fooled into thinking Gratus because of the lower leaflet thorns.  Down near the base they transition to stabbiness, but maybe in the middle and upper end of the frond they are mostly spineless?  If that's the case I'd definitely think Sclavoi.  My young full-sun Sclavoi looks very similar, but with closer leaflet spacing due to being in full sun.

5 hours ago, Merlyn said:

On this photo I don't see any leaflet thorns.  Is that a "median leaflet?"  If so, then maybe I was fooled into thinking Gratus because of the lower leaflet thorns.  Down near the base they transition to stabbiness, but maybe in the middle and upper end of the frond they are mostly spineless?  If that's the case I'd definitely think Sclavoi.  My young full-sun Sclavoi looks very similar, but with closer leaflet spacing due to being in full sun.

This is indeed a "median leaflet" area of the frond and yes each lower leaf has the lower leaflet thorns which become more pronounced to "stabbiness" as they near the bottom of the frond and the middle and upper end of the frond leaflets are mostly spineless.

 

Richard

6 hours ago, GDLWyverex said:

I dont see the decurrent leaf or stem that is a tell tale of Bubalinus

Richard

I saw that in the description, but I'm not sure what decurrent leaf/stem is supposed to look like.  On Tegulaneus I can tell immediately, because it has a distinct recurved ridge on the lower edge of each leaf.  You can run your fingernail along the leaf and tell the ridge immediately.  In photos here (specifically 9, 18, 19, 20) I'm not really seeing a complete ridge between leaflet bases.  The little arc is probably more obvious in photo 9, with the yellowish highlights.  

https://www.cycadlist.org/taxon.php?Taxon_ID=279

I'm not trying to convince you it's a Bubalinus, just curious about how they define decurrent on the cycad.

2 hours ago, Merlyn said:

  You can run your fingernail along the leaf and tell the ridge immediately. 

 

I think that the term for that is revolute margin as opposed to decurrent which I think refers to the actual connection of the leaflet to the frond