The intreguing case of ...a new arrival??

[Silas_Sancona]

A stately tree, one of the seemingly few options which can produce welcoming, dense shade in the desert, or one which  is sometimes seen shaped into un natural ( and almost always ugly ) geometric shapes  Indian Laurel / Chinese Banyan, or Ficus nitida ( *** More properly, Ficus microcarpa *** ) has been a landscape staple here in the Phoenix area for -at least- a couple decades, and is widely planted throughout the warmer areas of California, Florida, Hawaii, and possibly, S. TX - among even warmer areas across the globe outside the U.S.

While shallow, wandering roots,  which can strangle sewer or water lines, and lift concrete surfaces have seen it become less- widely planted in densely developed neighborhoods here, like most Ficus,  it is a great tree option where it has space. Many fantastic specimens around town.  For now at least, it appeared we in the desert might avoid the other big annoying aspect this tree is noted for ..a tendency to produce fertile fruit, lots of it & viable seed which birds who love the fruit, can spread everywhere. ...A fairly common problem in places like Florida where the specific wasp which pollinates F. microcarpa was accidentally introduced some time ago.

Sometime in the mid-90's folks in southern California began noting trees there producing fertile-looking, fully developed fruit. A few years later, reports of seedling F. microcarpa in both urban / developed, and more natural / un-developed areas started to come in. After investigating the reports, it appeared the same,specific wasp that pollinates this species, had turned up in the L.A. area, then began spreading around the rest of S. Cal.

While very familiar with specimens of this species here, it wasn't until we moved into the current house that i could observe the day to day details of various things like it's growth pattern, response to cold or heat stress / damage, and fruiting habits.

In Fl, when they fruit, they make a mess. Here mainly due lack of pollinating Wasp, ..and perhaps our heat, fruit production / " messiness " is never an issue.  While it is certainly possible this has been occurring for several years, this year, i noticed that the tree in the yard was hanging onto fruits past winter ..and that some seem to be developing -past the stage where it seemed they'd typically were aborted from the tree.

Opening a few, it looked like there might be developing embryos in the fruits.  Intrigued, i decided to watch other fruit to see what they do.  Seeing what, from memory, look like fully mature fruit on a few branches today, decided to open them and see what might be inside ..more possible seed.  By chance, i found what a hunch told me might be a Fig Wasp, even if it looked like a speck of dust.

Pulling out a microscope i've had since 7th grade for the first time in a couple decades, decided to put that " speck of dust " under it, as well as some of the possibly " good " looking seed.

If what i saw isn't the exact species ( There are many ), it appears something may have arrived in the desert, and may be successfully pollinating F. microcarpa here now. I've heard from other people growing some of the Sonoran Ficus sp. in Tucson that they've also seen some of their trees start to produce viable fruit in recent years.

If this is actually occurring, i'd anticipate hearing of microcarpa turning up on palms / in favored sites in / around Phoenix over the coming years.  Plan on tossing seeds removed  / others i might find when more fruits ripen in a pot and seeing if they do anything..  Likely won't,  but,  after finding a few wasps, and holes in seed where a new generation of wasps would emerge from? ..Can't say there isn't a chance planted seed won't germinate either.

I won't delve too deeply into the nuts and bolts of ficus / ficus wasp mutualism ( plenty of good articles around discussing it ), but, some recent studies suggest it may not be quite as cut and dry as long thought, ( X specific wasp being able to adjust which ficus sp. it pollinates, instead of being tied to just a single species for instance ) in some cases anyway..  Overall, the subject needs a lot more research.


As for the implications of this non native tree now being able to reproduce here, -if that is now a real possibility,   escaping into.. and establishing itself in.. natural areas is the most obvious negative result.  On the other hand, more trees producing fruit in the " desert cities " might entice various exotic fruit eating birds to explore territory further north from where their current distribution ends just south of AZ in Mexico, a positive in terms of bird watching opportunities, and at least some degree of providing habitat in a changing world where species distributions are shifting.

An article discussing ficus wasps adjusting their host preference in Hawaii: https://phys.org/news/2021-01-figs-nonnative-species-invade-ecosystems.html


PDF article ( Kind of long, fyi ) regarding the specific wasp that pollinates the species'  arrival and documentation of  " feral " F. microcarpa specimens in California..  Has the same sp. finally reached AZ? We'll see.. : https://www.occnps.org/PDF/Ficusmicrocarpa-Riefner.pdf



Pictures...

Immature figs w/ what look like developing seed. Can see the "layers" of the Syconium in Pic. #3, the correct term for the flowering / fruiting structure of all Ficus sp.







Mature figs, and seeds ( Pic. #1 esp )





Note the holes in the tops of some of the developing seeds..






Potential pollinating wasp under the 'scope







Potentially viable seed.. Under the 'scope..



...Hrmmmm  🤔

[aztropic]

Fertile seeds are definitely produced in metro Phoenix. Neighbor had a huge one they chopped down last year. I had these fig trees popping up all over my yard. Miss the shade it cast,but will probably be less weeding to do in the coming years.  

 

aztropic

Mesa, Arizona 

[Silas_Sancona]

2 hours ago, aztropic said:

Fertile seeds are definitely produced in metro Phoenix. Neighbor had a huge one they chopped down last year. I had these fig trees popping up all over my yard. Miss the shade it cast,but will probably be less weeding to do in the coming years.  

 

aztropic

Mesa, Arizona 

If only those were " naturally planted " Ficus petiolaris, cotinifolia, maxima, or  trigonata.. ( our " near native " Figs )

[Josh76]

I'd be very interested to hear how these large figs respond to hard freezes. Presumably they die back to the trunk, or to thicker branches where the living material is more protected from the cold?

 

[Silas_Sancona]

8 hours ago, Josh76 said:

I'd be very interested to hear how these large figs respond to hard freezes. Presumably they die back to the trunk, or to thicker branches where the living material is more protected from the cold?

 

If i remember right, Pretty sure that is what people saw w/ F. microcarpa  ( ..and likely other Ficus sp ) here during the last bigger freeze, though i don't think any of the bigger specimens that really took a hit  that year died back to the trunk, ...not in the warmer parts of the valley anyway..

As for some of the " native " sp. i mentioned,  F. petiolaris  ( and it's various forms / sub sp. ) seem to do fine here, and in Tucson, though they can get knocked back pretty hard at times down there, which limits size ..Ones i have seen anyway. Maybe some bigger ones hiding in a warm pocket in town down there.  Do really well in SoCal.  where they can get BIG.  While still a very uncommon sight, much less evidence of frost / freeze kill on the few / far between larger specimens i have seen here / young plants i have myself.

Other near-native sp.. One nursery i know of which has grown F. pertusa / trigonata  protect their mother plants.  Not sure how specimens they have sold have done, esp. down there.  F. pertusa i had never had cold issues up here.. " Lazy Nathan "  killed it, instead of any colder temps i've seen. lol.

Similar story w/ F. cotinifolia.. Seen small specimens for sale at a couple nurseries down there from time to time, but no bigger-sized ones planted anywhere -yet-.

Know of no one currently selling F. maxima, F. insipida, and F. crocata.  That said, crocata and insipida are native as far north as the Sonora / Sinaloa state line, w/ possible specimen observations of both in Hermosillo, and around Alamos.  F. maxima  was also observed in Alamos as well, but would otherwise be seen further south ..starting roughly just north of Mazatlan ( iNat Obs ).

Regardless, being that all of the sp. listed are native to the same area ( ..Sinaloa and south ) where Cascalote, Tara cacalaco comes from,  i'd suspect most / all might have a similar cold tolerance range as Cascalote..

Cascalote is grown all over the place here and can get pretty big. Never seems to be effected much by what colder days i've seen since moving here. Don't think any of the bigger ones at a local park on a cooler side of Chandler even lost flowers after the colder mornings this past winter there.  Those same chilly mornings burned some of the Brittle Bush at the same location a little.

..Some might disagree, which is fine but, for me, the question isn't whether or not they would survive what brief frost / freezing temps they might endure during a rare colder winter here  ...Seems they might, bigger / established specimens esp.   I'm more curious as to how well they'd tolerate our heat / dry-er air / less overall rainfall,  compared to even Hermosillo.. 

While it is neat to see some of the large, non- native Ficus sp. around town that will grow here,  it's a bit of a head scratcher that there are so many sp. native just to our south, which may be just as temperature tolerant ( maybe more? ) but pretty much only a few of them seem to have been tried anywhere up here / in Tucson, ...or in Yuma / the S. CA deserts / coastal areas ( ..to my knowledge )..

Might be just a little too big to fit in my back yard , but might be a neat sight in one of the bigger parks, perhaps?   haha..

*** iNat Observation Photo Credit: jose_rosendo_castro_amarillas ****



 

[Silas_Sancona]

And there you have it... After about a week on the bench/ in a bag,  Confirmation -w/ my own eyes..  Yes, indeed, local F. microcarpa / nitida  are capable of producing fertile seed..

[Tracy]

On 4/28/2023 at 5:27 PM, Silas_Sancona said:

A stately tree, one of the seemingly few options which can produce welcoming, dense shade in the desert, or one which  is sometimes seen shaped into un natural ( and almost always ugly ) geometric shapes  Indian Laurel / Chinese Banyan, or Ficus nitida ( *** More properly, Ficus microcarpa *** ) has been a landscape staple here in the Phoenix area for -at least- a couple decades, and is widely planted throughout the warmer areas of California, Florida, Hawaii, and possibly, S. TX - among even warmer areas across the globe outside the U.S.

While shallow, wandering roots,  which can strangle sewer or water lines, and lift concrete surfaces have seen it become less- widely planted in densely developed neighborhoods here, like most Ficus,  it is a great tree option where it has space. Many fantastic specimens around town.  For now at least, it appeared we in the desert might avoid the other big annoying aspect this tree is noted for ..a tendency to produce fertile fruit, lots of it & viable seed which birds who love the fruit, can spread everywhere. ...A fairly common problem in places like Florida where the specific wasp which pollinates F. microcarpa was accidentally introduced some time ago.

Sometime in the mid-90's folks in southern California began noting trees there producing fertile-looking, fully developed fruit. A few years later, reports of seedling F. microcarpa in both urban / developed, and more natural / un-developed areas started to come in. After investigating the reports, it appeared the same,specific wasp that pollinates this species, had turned up in the L.A. area, then began spreading around the rest of S. Cal.

While very familiar with specimens of this species here, it wasn't until we moved into the current house that i could observe the day to day details of various things like it's growth pattern, response to cold or heat stress / damage, and fruiting habits.

In Fl, when they fruit, they make a mess. Here mainly due lack of pollinating Wasp, ..and perhaps our heat, fruit production / " messiness " is never an issue.  While it is certainly possible this has been occurring for several years, this year, i noticed that the tree in the yard was hanging onto fruits past winter ..and that some seem to be developing -past the stage where it seemed they'd typically were aborted from the tree.

Opening a few, it looked like there might be developing embryos in the fruits.  Intrigued, i decided to watch other fruit to see what they do.  Seeing what, from memory, look like fully mature fruit on a few branches today, decided to open them and see what might be inside ..more possible seed.  By chance, i found what a hunch told me might be a Fig Wasp, even if it looked like a speck of dust.

Pulling out a microscope i've had since 7th grade for the first time in a couple decades, decided to put that " speck of dust " under it, as well as some of the possibly " good " looking seed.

If what i saw isn't the exact species ( There are many ), it appears something may have arrived in the desert, and may be successfully pollinating F. microcarpa here now. I've heard from other people growing some of the Sonoran Ficus sp. in Tucson that they've also seen some of their trees start to produce viable fruit in recent years.

If this is actually occurring, i'd anticipate hearing of microcarpa turning up on palms / in favored sites in / around Phoenix over the coming years.  Plan on tossing seeds removed  / others i might find when more fruits ripen in a pot and seeing if they do anything..  Likely won't,  but,  after finding a few wasps, and holes in seed where a new generation of wasps would emerge from? ..Can't say there isn't a chance planted seed won't germinate either.

I won't delve too deeply into the nuts and bolts of ficus / ficus wasp mutualism ( plenty of good articles around discussing it ), but, some recent studies suggest it may not be quite as cut and dry as long thought, ( X specific wasp being able to adjust which ficus sp. it pollinates, instead of being tied to just a single species for instance ) in some cases anyway..  Overall, the subject needs a lot more research.


As for the implications of this non native tree now being able to reproduce here, -if that is now a real possibility,   escaping into.. and establishing itself in.. natural areas is the most obvious negative result.  On the other hand, more trees producing fruit in the " desert cities " might entice various exotic fruit eating birds to explore territory further north from where their current distribution ends just south of AZ in Mexico, a positive in terms of bird watching opportunities, and at least some degree of providing habitat in a changing world where species distributions are shifting.

An article discussing ficus wasps adjusting their host preference in Hawaii: https://phys.org/news/2021-01-figs-nonnative-species-invade-ecosystems.html


PDF article ( Kind of long, fyi ) regarding the specific wasp that pollinates the species'  arrival and documentation of  " feral " F. microcarpa specimens in California..  Has the same sp. finally reached AZ? We'll see.. : https://www.occnps.org/PDF/Ficusmicrocarpa-Riefner.pdf



Pictures...

Immature figs w/ what look like developing seed. Can see the "layers" of the Syconium in Pic. #3, the correct term for the flowering / fruiting structure of all Ficus sp.







Mature figs, and seeds ( Pic. #1 esp )





Note the holes in the tops of some of the developing seeds..






Potential pollinating wasp under the 'scope







Potentially viable seed.. Under the 'scope..



...Hrmmmm  🤔

You got me thinking about native or nearby native wasp pollinators and our introductions of foreign Ficus species.  I guess until our foreign species are exposed to these wasps for an extended period of time in different years as our climate varies annually,  we can't predict outcomes.  I am guessing Ficus petiolaris is the closest native Ficus species to me.  If it's pollinators make it here, it seems possible the wasps could find a good match with Ficus species from farther away.  Only time will tell.  Very stimulating thread for pondering. 

[epiphyte]

great pics and documentation.

in 2018 i emailed wayne's word and asked him if ficus petioralis is naturally pollinated in his neck of the woods, he replied that it isn't.   yet ficus nitida is naturally pollinated in phoenix.  i wish that all the ficus there and here were naturally pollinated.  i'd love to see ficus colonizing the hills.  

any given square kilometer of land should have ______________ nature competing for it

a. less 
b. the same amount of 
c. more

yuccas already have enough competition?  

[Tracy]

11 minutes ago, epiphyte said:

great pics and documentation.

in 2018 i emailed wayne's word and asked him if ficus petioralis is naturally pollinated in his neck of the woods, he replied that it isn't.   yet ficus nitida is naturally pollinated in phoenix.  i wish that all the ficus there and here were naturally pollinated.  i'd love to see ficus colonizing the hills.  

any given square kilometer of land should have ______________ nature competing for it

a. less 
b. the same amount of 
c. more

yuccas already have enough competition?  

Carlos you bring up a good point.  As we see  changes to habitats which are negative for the native species, is it always good, bad or neutral that other plants or animals better adapted to the new reality are stepping into the void or at least out competing?

[Silas_Sancona]

6 minutes ago, Tracy said:

Carlos you bring up a good point.  As we see  changes to habitats which are negative for the native species, is it always good, bad or neutral that other plants or animals better adapted to the new reality are stepping into the void or at least out competing?

In the case of F. petiolaris / it's sub sps. / other " regionally - native " Ficus sps, those species expanding into " new " ..human perspective of new... territory isn't really an issue since, quite likely, they ..or the predecessors to them were native in CA ( and likely AZ as well ) at one or more times in the past.. so, they wouldn't be considered invasive since the same critters / fungi / bacteria/ that help keep them in check are likely  present ..or would quickly follow such a range expansion..

Most people don't seem to know that Ocotillo ..or a distant relative of...,  grew all the way to the CA coast, possibly as far north as the Santa Lucia / central Diablo Range just east of San Jose, and was considered part of the " subtropical " Chaparral, which is now more restricted to areas on the east side of the Peninsular ranges there in S.D. county south into Baja Norte. 

Pinus coulteri  is thought to have evolved from a natural hybrid between one of the Pines closely allied to Ponderosa, and a subtropical sp. in Mexico.  Engelmann Oak?, a climatically isolated sister to Mex. Blue Oak.. once connected, now separated  -for now-.

When the Cen. Valley was a shallow sea, various trees currently seen in S. Sonora / Sinaloa, like Ficus and relatives of Avocado grew here..  At the same time, before ..or after.. that, San Diego's climate / native plant make up resembled places like Humbolt..

If a wetter -at times, during the summer-  and warmer / drier -overall-  future is ahead for CA, ...Cen. and S Cal esp,   i'd anticipate Ocotillo ..and other stuff that is currently kept from moving closer to the coast by the coast's milder climate, to expand west and north again..  Saguaro is another example ..with specimens turning up near Joshua Tree / in the mountains west of the Salton Sea ( questionable reports of... there ) Signs of possible range expansion..


On the other hand, Ficus sps, from other continents don't have the same agents of balance following them ...unless accidentally introduced, as appears to be the case w/ F. microcarpa / some other sps not native to the Americas.. W/ out a balance, those non natives can take over, ...and we don't want that..  Same w/  animals not already native to within 1200 miles of say Los Angeles..  

Fine to grow plants from Europe / Africa / Asia / Australia in a garden,  major error of judgment ( ...and personal / moral responsibility / accountability to the environment ) to say / be complacent w/ saying " ..lets let them take over natural areas.. "   Would it be cool to let Queen palms or Mesquite to take over Madagascar, Lord Howe, or New Caledonia?  ..Not at all..


While not " common " i'd bet the ficus wasp that pollinates F. petiolaris  is already out there, somewhere  in S. Cal  ..or will be very soon.   If not that specific wasp, maybe one that is more of a generalist, or adjusts to pollinating it takes up the job,  if  already present..

As for non native sps. i'd cut them all down if i saw them growing -where they shouldn't be..

[epiphyte]

9 hours ago, Tracy said:

Carlos you bring up a good point.  As we see  changes to habitats which are negative for the native species, is it always good, bad or neutral that other plants or animals better adapted to the new reality are stepping into the void or at least out competing?

i've recently started collecting variegated aeoniums and growing them from seed.  if some of the seed/seedlings somehow escape into the surrounding hills, and manage to establish, then this essentially functions as a hedge against change.  if the dudleyas can't keep up with rapid climate change, for example, then the slack might be picked up by the aeoniums, or aloes, or echeverias.  

[Silas_Sancona]

7 minutes ago, epiphyte said:

i've recently started collecting variegated aeoniums and growing them from seed.  if some of the seed/seedlings somehow escape into the surrounding hills, and manage to establish, then this essentially functions as a hedge against change.  if the dudleyas can't keep up with rapid climate change, for example, then the slack might be picked up by the aeoniums, or aloes, or echeverias.  

Have to let some people i know out there to look for them to rip em out  ..of where they don't belong.. 

[epiphyte]

8 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

As for non native sps. i'd cut them all down if i saw them growing -where they shouldn't be..

let's say that krakatoa erupts and all life on the island is annihilated.  afterwards, somebody should visit the island once a week to remove any colonizers?  

it's entirely arbitrary, and bizarre, to say that it's copacetic if some random bird poops a ficus seed on the island, but it's not copacetic if some random human spits a guava seed on the island.  as if the bird's preferences should matter but the human's preferences should not.   

except what happens when a bird poops a guava seed on hawaii?  then you'd pull up the seedling.  somehow in this case your preferences matter while the bird's do not.

 

[Silas_Sancona]

15 minutes ago, epiphyte said:

let's say that krakatoa erupts and all life on the island is annihilated.  afterwards, somebody should visit the island once a week to remove any colonizers?  

it's entirely arbitrary, and bizarre, to say that it's copacetic if some random bird poops a ficus seed on the island, but it's not copacetic if some random human spits a guava seed on the island.  as if the bird's preferences should matter but the human's preferences should not.   

except what happens when a bird poops a guava seed on hawaii?  then you'd pull up the seedling.  somehow in this case your preferences matter while the bird's do not.

 

No far fetched, " What if the sky falls " thought process will make intentionally introducing non native plants to areas where they do not belong ok..

California isn't an island, and our natives aren't there for people who can't appreciate them to try and make it more of a challenge for them to survive -where they belong- 

If not already native to X area / region,  Keep them in your yard. Period,  Full stop..

 

[epiphyte]

1 hour ago, Silas_Sancona said:

No far fetched, " What if the sky falls " thought process will make intentionally introducing non native plants to areas where they do not belong ok..

California isn't an island, and our natives aren't there for people who can't appreciate them to try and make it more of a challenge for them to survive -where they belong- 

If not already native to X area / region,  Keep them in your yard. Period,  Full stop..

 

what if the sky falls is the entire premise of colonization.  life began on earth around the same time that our planet was still being regularly pummeled by asteroids.  if there was some form of life that didn't manage to spread itself around, well, obviously it didn't last long.  it was wiped out by an asteroid, or a volcano, or a flood, or whatever.  we can't even fathom a form of life that's incapable of colonization.  life and colonization are synonymous.

recently i acquired ficus sycomorous.  you want me to keep it in my yard?  what does that even mean?  i'm supposed to put a fine mesh around it so that tiny wasps don't pollinate it?  in case the mesh fails, i should put the ficus in a cage to prevent birds from eating the fruit and pooping the seeds everywhere?  uhhhh...  if you sent a memo to local botanical gardens about practicing safe ficus growing, none of them got it.

i've never understood the pro-native logic.  natives are superior by virtue of prior colonization?  so they should be protected from colonization by foreigners?  that makes no sense.

natives are superior because they are better adapted?  if they are better adapted, then less adapted foreigners should pose no threat.

natives are superior because they are more useful to other organisms?  so we should rank organisms based on how many other organisms they support?  when my ponytail palms bloom i'm always amazed at the breadth and depth of insects they attract.  but are their blooms more useful than the fruits on my neighbor's carica?  i kinda doubt it.  are there any natives that do a better job than carica at feeding wildlife?  catalina cherries?  hah.  talk about stingy.

recently i learned that a while back some israeli mad scientists crossed carica and auriculata.  did they know that hybridization is instrumental in facilitating colonization?  ficus aren't an exception.  here's over a 100 sources on the topic more or less.  

facilitating colonization, which is the same thing as facilitating life, is one of my prime motives for hybridizing.  last week i grafted sycomorous and auriculata onto my neighbor's carica in order to make natural cross-pollination even more likely, assuming the grafts take.  but i'm definitely going to try my hand at artificial pollination.  if i do manage to create any new ficus hybrids, then their usefulness would be determined by collectors and critters alike. 

the idea that any hybrid that i create shouldn't exist anywhere in nature is incredibly counterproductive to the very essence of life.  if you saw one of my ficus hybrids in nature, you'd rip it out?  and throw it away?  imagine if it was the ficus that would have saved everyone in africa from starvation, but you threw it away.  

"The greatest service which can be rendered any country is to add a useful plant to its culture." -  Thomas Jefferson

from matthew 7...

16. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17. Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

you want to destroy my ficus hybrid because it doesn't bring forth good fruit?  that's entirely reasonable.  you want to destroy my ficus hybrid before it's even fruited?  that's entirely unreasonable.  your decision to destroy the seedling would be incredibly uninformed.  

my friend's kid just turned 10.  i told him the story about how gary hammer didn't look both ways before crossing the street.  he lacked the information he needed to make an informed decision.  it was the biggest mistake of his life.  

my perspective on natives is partially informed by this 1998 essay by stephen jay gould... An Evolutionary Perspective on Strengths, Fallacies, and Confusions in the Concept of Native Plants.

[Silas_Sancona]

11 minutes ago, epiphyte said:

what if the sky falls is the entire premise of colonization.  life began on earth around the same time that our planet was still being regularly pummeled by asteroids.  if there was some form of life that didn't manage to spread itself around, well, obviously it didn't last long.  it was wiped out by an asteroid, or a volcano, or a flood, or whatever.  we can't even fathom a form of life that's incapable of colonization.  life and colonization are synonymous.

recently i acquired ficus sycomorous.  you want me to keep it in my yard?  what does that even mean?  i'm supposed to put a fine mesh around it so that tiny wasps don't pollinate it?  in case the mesh fails, i should put the ficus in a cage to prevent birds from eating the fruit and pooping the seeds everywhere?  uhhhh...  if you sent a memo to local botanical gardens about practicing safe ficus growing, none of them got it.

i've never understood the pro-native logic.  natives are superior by virtue of prior colonization?  so they should be protected from colonization by foreigners?  that makes no sense.

natives are superior because they are better adapted?  if they are better adapted, then less adapted foreigners should pose no threat.

natives are superior because they are more useful to other organisms?  so we should rank organisms based on how many other organisms they support?  when my ponytail palms bloom i'm always amazed at the breadth and depth of insects they attract.  but are their blooms more useful than the fruits on my neighbor's carica?  i kinda doubt it.  are there any natives that do a better job than carica at feeding wildlife?  catalina cherries?  hah.  talk about stingy.

recently i learned that a while back some israeli mad scientists crossed carica and auriculata.  did they know that hybridization is instrumental in facilitating colonization?  ficus aren't an exception.  here's over a 100 sources on the topic more or less.  

facilitating colonization, which is the same thing as facilitating life, is one of my prime motives for hybridizing.  last week i grafted sycomorous and auriculata onto my neighbor's carica in order to make natural cross-pollination even more likely, assuming the grafts take.  but i'm definitely going to try my hand at artificial pollination.  if i do manage to create any new ficus hybrids, then their usefulness would be determined by collectors and critters alike. 

the idea that any hybrid that i create shouldn't exist anywhere in nature is incredibly counterproductive to the very essence of life.  if you saw one of my ficus hybrids in nature, you'd rip it out?  and throw it away?  imagine if it was the ficus that would have saved everyone in africa from starvation, but you threw it away.  

"The greatest service which can be rendered any country is to add a useful plant to its culture." -  Thomas Jefferson

from matthew 7...

16. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17. Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

you want to destroy my ficus hybrid because it doesn't bring forth good fruit?  that's entirely reasonable.  you want to destroy my ficus hybrid before it's even fruited?  that's entirely unreasonable.  your decision to destroy the seedling would be incredibly uninformed.  

my friend's kid just turned 10.  i told him the story about how gary hammer didn't look both ways before crossing the street.  he lacked the information he needed to make an informed decision.  it was the biggest mistake of his life.  

my perspective on natives is partially informed by this 1998 essay by stephen jay gould... An Evolutionary Perspective on Strengths, Fallacies, and Confusions in the Concept of Native Plants.

Carlos... Do you NOT  comprehend when to take a hint??  🤦‍♂️My goodness, lol.  

  ....When i  pull out the " Full stop "  card,  it is a respectful way of saying ..enough..  W/ me,  people  -who don't heed the friendly  hint  don't  get a second pass ... when they try to cross a boundary they were advised was in front of them.    ...Full stop = Conversation OVER,    Capiche?

Don't care about what your religious - whatever entity beliefs think about anything,  especially when using it to try and find a work around acceptable excuse for destroying things to suit some whatever imaginary " idea " of how anything should look,  according to -a ghost, that probably doesn't exist anyway / book of mainly exaggerated stories, aka,  Fish Tales..  Which are more bent on control over anyone who'd believe in half of those fishing trip stories..

As i said, cool to grow whatever you desire  -in your own  garden  ..Whether some containers on a Patio of an Apartment,  or on 10 acres ..of your own  land- .. Keep it there. Leave the " adjusting of things " in native habitats  to nature -and evolution..  Unless it is native / was native at one time to this slice of the Globe, it has no place outside a garden.

Be respectful, and keep the "Humans are superior to... / rule everything, ...so they can do whatever they want to the environment / Colonialism- inspired ideology off my threads..  or i will have to move to have your comments removed, ....If this last post doesn't get removed anyway..   Don't want to do that,  but will         ..in a heartbeat..   Unlike some who may sit on the sidelines, and be a bit too complacent / apathetic about things,  I absolutely DO NOT tolerate  ANY  of that garbage..  From anyone..  ...At any time, ....or place.. 

...And do yourself a favor,  try to comprehend ecology,  not just whichever angled aspect(s) appeal to your " ideal " view of it..   Also, you might want to stop with the "Lets replace natives with non natives " -themed  threads.  Didn't seem to work out well -at all- over on Agaveville / other forums where you have started similar conversations.. 

Most people appreciate and have respect for the native things that grow where they live, and don't want things messed up, ..more messed up ...than they already are in various places,  because of the nonchalant, " lets release anything we want into the wild ", type of attitude of the disappointingly misguided gardener / plant geek... 

Again, remaining respectful, until i need to stand up a bit taller, if necessary,  Full stop..  ✌🏽️ ...and Chicken Grease..

[Rivera]

No interest in arguing, but I have to agree with Nathan. It's fine to cultivate exotics in garden settings, but it's important to protect our native species and at least try to buy our ecosystems some time to adapt to all the change that has resulted from introduced species and shifting climate. I didn't even think this was up for debate.

On that note, I thought I'd share an observation from the northern central California coastline. Castilleja sp. (Indian paintbrush) are considered "parasitic" plants. Maybe there's a better word, and maybe there's some symbiosis that we're not aware of, but it's accepted among botanists that these herbaceous annuals/short-lived perennials tap into a host plant's root system as a source for water and nutrients. 

Here's a dune dwelling variety found in the coastal sage scrub plant community, presumably taking advantage of an age-old relationship with native California goldenbush (Ericameria ericoides).

But in the next few photos, there are no native host plants available, and this Castilleja sp. is growing amongst the two most dominant invasive plants in this plant community, suggesting that it may be exploiting a relationship with these plants as well. 

Castilleja sp. among Carpobrotus chilensis:

And here among Ammophila arenaria:

Edited June 5, 2023 by Rivera

[Silas_Sancona]

5 hours ago, Rivera said:

No interest in arguing, but I have to agree with Nathan. It's fine to cultivate exotics in garden settings, but it's important to protect our native species and at least try to buy our ecosystems some time to adapt to all the change that has resulted from introduced species and shifting climate. I didn't even think this was up for debate.

On that note, I thought I'd share an observation from the northern central California coastline. Castilleja sp. (Indian paintbrush) are considered "parasitic" plants. Maybe there's a better word, and maybe there's some symbiosis that we're not aware of, but it's accepted among botanists that these herbaceous annuals/short-lived perennials tap into a host plant's root system as a source for water and nutrients. 

Here's a dune dwelling variety found in the coastal sage scrub plant community, presumably taking advantage of an age-old relationship with native California goldenbush (Ericameria ericoides).

But in the next few photos, there are no native host plants available, and this Castilleja sp. is growing amongst the two most dominant invasive plants in this plant community, suggesting that it may be exploiting a relationship with these plants as well. 

Castilleja sp. among Carpobrotus chilensis:

And here among Ammophila arenaria:

This is an intriguing look at two possible ideas..  In the case of the Paintbrush using Carpobrotus as a host, since the Americas are considered the center of diversity within Castilleja, ...with species occurring all the way down to Chile, ( Species occurring in Central America also ) not impossible to imagine that there could be some sort of distant " memory " between the two -now greatly- separated plants.  

In the case of it using a European ( and horribly invasive ) grass, that could be it learning something new, or maybe a relationship between the two might exist since there are a few Paintbrushes native to Eurasia.

Then again, in both cases, maybe some Paintbrush sp. just aren't really particular about who they rely on for sustenance / partial sustenance.

What is interesting about the grass, ..like so many other badly invasive things,  it was originally brought to the U.S. to help remedy a problem ... Erosion of Sand Dunes along the coast.  In the end, this plant greatly exacerbated the vary problem it was recruited to solve, while bringing about other problems.. Salt Cedar ( Tamarisk ), Casuarina, and even a sister species of the Ice Plant relative you mentioned ( Carpobrotus edulis  specifically = South Africa origin  ) are other greatly miss guided introductions that are now causing varying deg. of issues in different areas.. 

All of the negative results non native invasives are now causing could have been avoided by trusting the roles natives evolved to solve in each situation / area.