Hardier variety than some tropical plants

[Ale1997]

Hi everyone, I'm new, my name is Alessandro and I come from Taormina, in the province of Messina, about 250/260 meters above sea level.
For several years I have been trying to grow some tropical plants, such as passiflora edulis (grown from supermarket seeds), lychee (grown from supermarket seeds), mango (purchase of total 6 plants grafted from on-site nursery), 3 avocados (of including 2 from supermarket seed and one grafted from Hass), papaya (again from supermarket seeds), pineapple (rooted tuft from the supermarket) and banana (orinoco, from local plants). Of all these plants I've grown over the past 7 years, the mangoes (varieties: 3 Keitt, 2 Tommy Atkins, 1 Osteen, and 1 Irwin) and papayas have never made it through a single winter. Pineapple only made it through one winter in 2019/2020, the others didn't make it. Instead all the others survived the winters quite easily, even if in January 2017, the Hass avocado also suffered several damages to the old leaves.
So now I have three questions for you:
1) Is there any variety of papaya that can be easily grown in the central Mediterranean and that is easily available? If it doesn't exist, do you know where I can find safe and germinable dwarf papaya seeds?
2) Is it true that the Kensington Pride mango is more resistant to cold than all other marketed mango varieties, and therefore can it be grown outdoors in the Mediterranean?
3) Is there any variety of pineapple that can be easily grown in the Mediterranean climate?
Extra question: some time ago I read here on Palmtalk that to a user who was looking for coconut palm substitutes, you recommended the Parajubaea Torallyi Torallyi variety, which produces edible fruits and the palm is similar to coconut. Here, I would like to know if you know of any websites where I can find the seeds or even the palm itself?

Many thanks to everyone and sorry if I asked too many questions.

By the way, if you want my climate data, I calculated the average for the period 1991-2010 with data from the Sicilian Water Observatory:
the first averages refer to the period 1991-2010, the second averages instead to the 2001-2010 period (I calculated these averages because I believe they are the most important given that it is the climatic period we are experiencing lately, but unfortunately there are no post- 2015)
January= 14.7°C/9.2°C        13.8°C/8.7°C
February= 15.0°C/8.7°C      13.9°C/8.2°C
March= 16.8°C/9.9°C          15.9°C/9.6°C
April= 19.0°C/11.8°C          18.2°C/11.5°C
May= 24.0°C/16.1°C           23.6°C/16.0°C
June= 28.4°C/20.1°C           28.0°C/19.9°C
July= 31.3°C/22.7°C            31.2°C/22.8°C
August= 31.7°C/23.4°C       31.1°C/23.1°C
September= 27.3°C/20.2°C 26.4°C/19.7°C
October= 23.8°C/17.2°C      22.7°C/16.7°C
November= 19.0°C/13.5°C  18.0°C/13.0°C
December= 15.7°C/10.4°C   14.6°C/9.7°C
The temperature records instead start from 1929 and reach 2014 and are +43.9°C in July 1998 and -2.0°C in February 1956. Lately from 2000 onwards the absolute maximum was +42.0° C in June 2007 and the absolute low was -1.0°C in December 2014, although I most likely fell to at least that level in January 2017, if not more, and even in February 2015 I may have exceeded this record.

Thanks again

[iko.]

Buongiorno,

I have grown some of the plants you mentioned in Eastern Spain where the climate is not much different than yours. Although winter day time temperatures seem a bit lower at your place. You said that your Hass avocado got damaged one winter and I wonder if you may have a different microclimate colder than the Taormina averages you posted. Anyway, I answer you what I know so far:

PAPAYAS

There are many people who grow them in gardens in Southern Spain (which is slightly warmer) but also in the east and islands. Smaller varieties (Caballero, Alicia) are also grown commercially. I have grown Tainung and Caballero. The first one fruits enough "to feed" a whole family and even to offer them to neighbours. If you grow them from seed be sure you start the process early so the plant has time to establish during summer. I don't water them much during winter and on February and March they look ratty. The fruits keep well though and what sprouts during summer it will usually be harvested from spring next year. Be sure it gets lots of sun.

I didn't see seeds of the dwarf varieties but small plants are sold in nurseries and online from EU websites. As far as I know, papayas grow in backyards in Sicily. 

There are some hardy plants similar to the papaya. Look for Vasconcellea or Babaco. I don't know how they taste or grow exactly.

 

MANGO

Many mangoes are grown outdoors in Spain and Italy. I proved them to be quite hardy to Mediterranean standards. I do have Kensington Pride and specifically searched for this variety because ripen is early, is popular in Australia and the taste is to die for. My tree is grafted into a Gomera 3 rootstock which works in cooler climates. It grows exceptionally well and fruits even better. Other popular mangos grown in the Mediterranean are Osteen and Calypso, to name a couple. 

 

PINEAPPLE

A while ago, I read that growers in Murcia (South eastern Spain) were trying to develop a variety to ripe faster and grow outdoors. Some people have pineapples in pots or gardens from supermarket varieties: MD2, Roja Española, Cayenne...

 

Sorry for the Spain focus on my answers but I'm not as familiar of the situation of these plants in other Mediterranean areas such as Italy, south of France, Greece or Turkey. There is an Italian forum with lots of information about the plants you're asking. I'm not sure if links to other forums can be posted here but should be found easily through google. 

 

Edited April 20, 2023 by iko.

[Ale1997]

On 20/4/2023 at 11:05, iko. said:

Buongiorno ,

Ho coltivato alcune delle piante che hai citato nella Spagna orientale dove il clima non è molto diverso dal tuo. Anche se le temperature diurne invernali sembrano un po' più basse a casa tua. Hai detto che il tuo avocado Hass è stato danneggiato un inverno e mi chiedo se potresti avere un microclima diverso, più freddo delle medie di Taormina che hai pubblicato. Ad ogni modo, ti rispondo quello che so finora:

PAPAIA

Ci sono molte persone che le coltivano nei giardini della Spagna meridionale (che è leggermente più calda) ma anche nell'est e nelle isole. Anche le varietà più piccole (Caballero, Alicia) vengono coltivate commercialmente. Ho coltivato Tainung e Caballero. La prima produce abbastanza "da sfamare" un'intera famiglia e persino da offrirla ai vicini. Se li coltivi dal seme, assicurati di iniziare il processo in anticipo in modo che la pianta abbia il tempo di stabilirsi durante l'estate. Non li innaffio molto durante l'inverno ea febbraio e marzo sembrano logori. I frutti però si conservano bene e ciò che germoglia durante l'estate verrà solitamente raccolto dalla primavera del prossimo anno. Assicurati che prenda molto sole.

Non ho visto i semi delle varietà nane, ma le piccole piante sono vendute nei vivai e online dai siti web dell'UE. Per quanto ne so, la papaia cresce nei cortili in Sicilia. 

Ci sono alcune piante resistenti simili alla papaia. Cerca Vasconcellea o Babaco. Non so che sapore o crescano esattamente.

 

MANGO

Molti mango vengono coltivati all'aperto in Spagna e in Italia. Ho dimostrato che sono piuttosto resistenti agli standard mediterranei. Ho il Kensington Pride e ho cercato specificamente questa varietà perché la maturazione è precoce, è popolare in Australia e il gusto è da morire. Il mio albero è innestato in un portainnesto Gomera 3 che funziona in climi più freddi. Cresce eccezionalmente bene e fruttifica ancora meglio. Altri mango popolari coltivati nel Mediterraneo sono Osteen e Calypso, solo per citarne un paio. 

 

ANANAS

Qualche tempo fa, ho letto  che i coltivatori di Murcia (sud-est della Spagna) stavano cercando di sviluppare una varietà che maturasse più velocemente e crescesse all'aperto. Alcune persone hanno ananas in vaso o in giardino delle varietà del supermercato: MD2, Roja Española, Cayenne...

 

Scusa se la Spagna si concentra sulle mie risposte, ma non conosco la situazione di queste piante in altre aree del Mediterraneo come l'Italia, il sud della Francia, la Grecia o la Turchia. C'è un forum italiano con molte informazioni sulle piante che stai chiedendo. Non sono sicuro che i collegamenti ad altri forum possano essere pubblicati qui, ma dovrebbero essere trovati facilmente tramite Google. 

 

Thanks a lot for the answer. In fact, your area has much higher average maximums than mine, especially in winter and spring. Regarding your first question, where I live, the temperatures are definitely comparable to the averages and extremes I posted. Unfortunately, however, the weather station was dismantled in 2015, so data after that date is not available. In fact, the avocado was only damaged in 2017, following a big snowfall with a minimum temperature which, in my opinion, must have been between -1°C and -2°C, so I would say that the damage could be there, because in any case the Hass is the least cold resistant variety, so much so that the other plants born from seed have not received any obvious damage. With regard to papaya, a particular condition occurs every winter, always towards the middle/end of December or at least by the end of January. In practice, the plant has a continuous growth, albeit increasingly slow, until the end of November, after which it seems to stop and after a few weeks the collar rot arrives, and it happens even if I put an antifungal, such as Aluminum Phosetyl. Then the plant leaves in a hurry. Could it be some particularly strong fungal attack and therefore I have to increase the dose of antifungal, or is it simply the cold with the humid winter weather typical of Southern Italy? For this reason I wanted to focus on dwarf papaya plants capable of making them bear fruit and grow inside a small greenhouse, with a maximum height of around 1.5/2 metres. Are you saying that the papayas you recommended (Tainung, Baballero, Alicia) are suitable for this type of greenhouse? Or are they more resistant to low temperatures? According to what I've heard from some who have it between Messina and Reggio Calabria, Vasconcellea does not have a sweet taste, it is more acidic and has nothing to do with papaya. I just can't seem to make mango survive a single winter, but I've never tried Kensington Pride, which they say here is more resistant than the other varieties of 2°C. Maybe if I protect him the first few years, then he can get away with it. Pineapple, on the other hand, in my opinion I could be able to grow it, even with the help of covers; the fact is that in my opinion, usually the pineapple does not survive the winter because it can take root starting from the tuft only towards the end of August and the beginning of September, after which it grows only a few leaves and finally arrives still small in winter.

Edited April 21, 2023 by Ale1997

[bubba]

It is truly amazing to me the variety of tropical fruits that can be grown in all Mediterranean climates at what would be impossible latitudes in the Eastern US. Great to see people taking full advantage.

By the way, that is one beautiful Royal pictured amongst the papayas. You should try some Carribean plants and palms. I was amazed to see Carribean varieties like Lignum vitae doing quite well in the Southwest United States. You should also consider the wide variety of palms (Copernicia, Thrinax, etc).

[iko.]

2 hours ago, Ale1997 said:

Unfortunately, however, the weather station was dismantled in 2015, so data after that date is not available. 

I recommend you to check Weather Underground. It's people from all over posting their weather stations data, myself included. Some may be a bit inaccurate but it's a great source to know about the microclimates around your place. In the desktop version you can select the weather station and check data from previous years. 

 

2 hours ago, Ale1997 said:

With regard to papaya, a particular condition occurs every winter, always towards the middle/end of December or at least by the end of January. In practice, the plant has a continuous growth, albeit increasingly slow, until the end of November, after which it seems to stop and after a few weeks the collar rot arrives

I often have this problem with smaller papayas, but in February when the weather warms up again. The papayas all look great until January when the decline starts.

 

2 hours ago, Ale1997 said:

Are you saying that the papayas you recommended (Tainung, Baballero, Alicia) are suitable for this type of greenhouse? Or are they more resistant to low temperatures? 

From my experience, Tainung gets very tall but starts fruiting from a small size. Caballero, Alicia, Intenzza,... are all varieties grown commercially under plastic in Southern Spain, not 100% sure how tall they can get. If you have them in pots you have two options if they'd get too tall: cut the main trunk and should sprout on the sides, just remember to cover the main trunk to avoid water coming in, or propagate them. I found layering being the best method, specially if the plant is branching. 

 

2 hours ago, Ale1997 said:

I just can't seem to make mango survive a single winter, but I've never tried Kensington Pride, which they say here is more resistant than the other varieties of 2°C. 

About the mangoes, in Spain are grafted into rootstock such as Gomera 2 or Gomera 3 for example. Kensignton Pride seeds true to type (there is a scientific Latin word for this which I can't recall right now), meaning that you'll get the same variety if you plant a seed from that fruit. I got some small ones by seeds, planted in September, sprout in october and they keep growing all winter with no signs of damage. So, I guess it must be quite hardy.

 

Hope the info was helpful. Keep us posted about your experiences of tropicals in Sicily. In bocca al lupo!

[iko.]

1 hour ago, bubba said:

It is truly amazing to me the variety of tropical fruits that can be grown in all Mediterranean climates at what would be impossible latitudes in the Eastern US. Great to see people taking full advantage.

By the way, that is one beautiful Royal pictured amongst the papayas. You should try some Carribean plants and palms. I was amazed to see Carribean varieties like Lignum vitae doing quite well in the Southwest United States. You should also consider the wide variety of palms (Copernicia, Thrinax, etc).

Thank you. What I find more spectacular of the Royal is how big it got, huge palm!

I'm on the same latitude as New York but gardeners and hobbyist don't take much advantage of the climate in Spain and still keep planting Washingtonia or Syagrus everywhere. Luckily, there are some people pushing boundaries and others who do it by utter ignorance. The most tender palms I have grown were Areca Trianda and Adonidia. For a few years, they were ok in a pot until I planted them in the ground. I keep trying other plants on occasion. 

[dalmatiansoap]

Beautiful plants 🤩 

I'm still struggling with plain Avocados here. Got one yellow Guava to try for this season and annual Papayas

[iko.]

3 hours ago, dalmatiansoap said:

Beautiful plants 🤩 

I'm still struggling with plain Avocados here. Got one yellow Guava to try for this season and annual Papayas

Thank you. You should be ok with avocados, they even grow and fruit in London! Or try passion fruit. 

[Ale1997]

On 4/21/2023 at 4:29 PM, iko. said:

I recommend you to check Weather Underground. It's people from all over posting their weather stations data, myself included. Some may be a bit inaccurate but it's a great source to know about the microclimates around your place. In the desktop version you can select the weather station and check data from previous years. 

 

I often have this problem with smaller papayas, but in February when the weather warms up again. The papayas all look great until January when the decline starts.

 

From my experience, Tainung gets very tall but starts fruiting from a small size. Caballero, Alicia, Intenzza,... are all varieties grown commercially under plastic in Southern Spain, not 100% sure how tall they can get. If you have them in pots you have two options if they'd get too tall: cut the main trunk and should sprout on the sides, just remember to cover the main trunk to avoid water coming in, or propagate them. I found layering being the best method, specially if the plant is branching. 

 

About the mangoes, in Spain are grafted into rootstock such as Gomera 2 or Gomera 3 for example. Kensignton Pride seeds true to type (there is a scientific Latin word for this which I can't recall right now), meaning that you'll get the same variety if you plant a seed from that fruit. I got some small ones by seeds, planted in September, sprout in october and they keep growing all winter with no signs of damage. So, I guess it must be quite hardy.

 

Hope the info was helpful. Keep us posted about your experiences of tropicals in Sicily. In bocca al lupo!

Thanks again for the replies and for the encouragement, unfortunately it can be said that I'm still at the beginning with certain plants and so I'm trying to get some clarifications.
With what you said about the papaya varieties you mentioned, do you know if they can fruit in pots? If yes, it would be a really great gain for me as I would keep them in pots in the greenhouse or even inside the house and then after they bear fruit, I will continually try to make them adapt outside, without protection.
Now I have another question: do you know any 100% safe sites where I can buy these papaya varieties?
I'd be very interested in the Musa Super Dwarf Cavendish, have you ever tried it yourself in Eastern Spain? Who knows how it adapts to the Mediterranean climate? And who knows if it is possible to find it from safe sites.

[iko.]

On 4/22/2023 at 6:18 PM, Ale1997 said:

With what you said about the papaya varieties you mentioned, do you know if they can fruit in pots? If yes, it would be a really great gain for me as I would keep them in pots in the greenhouse or even inside the house and then after they bear fruit, I will continually try to make them adapt outside, without protection.

Now I have another question: do you know any 100% safe sites where I can buy these papaya varieties?

I don't have any experience on fruting papaya in pots. I only saw pictures from people who posted them in internet. Not sure if there's a trick but I would try it if I were in your position. 

There are some websites in Spain selling sell those varieties, there may be some in Italy too. As I said in my previous message, google for the Italian fruit forum fruttama.

On 4/22/2023 at 6:18 PM, Ale1997 said:

I'd be very interested in the Musa Super Dwarf Cavendish, have you ever tried it yourself in Eastern Spain? Who knows how it adapts to the Mediterranean climate? And who knows if it is possible to find it from safe sites.

I think I have a Super Dwarf Cavendish, or at least it has never grown taller than my waist. I got it in the hardware store chain, Leroy Merlin. I had it for much more than 10 years and it has never flowered. From my experience, they are slightly tender than the common banana trees seen in the Mediterranean but they can make the winter ok. 

Edited April 23, 2023 by iko.