Can you recommend a FAST-IN-SHADE privacy hedge for Central Florida?

[Sandy Loam]

Greetings Floridians.  Can you recommend a privacy screen which grows QUICKLY IN SHADE in central Florida (Winter Haven, specifically)?  If it grows in Orlando or Tampa, it will grow here.  Your recommendation doesn't necessary have to be a shrub for hedging, although that is the most common way to screen out neighbours.

Clumping bamboo grows too wide too fast.  Sweet Viburnum is fine, but it is only fast-growing in sunny locations.  Sweet Viburnum is surprisingly slow-growing in shade. 

How about Dypsis Lutenscens (Areca Palm)?  It forms a nice, dense screen, but isn't that only the case when grown in sun because it becomes leggy in shade (bad for screening) and is a slowpoke in the shade too? Perhaps I am wrong.  If so, please correct me because I would seriously consider it. 

How about a dense cluster of Streilizia Nicolai for screening?  Do they grow fast in shade or not?  

Podocarpus at my other property have not been fast-growers and that was in sun, so I can't imagine how slow they might be in shade. 

Other suggestions?   I have plenty of options for my sunny locations, but I don't know of any screening plants which are FAST IN SHADE.    Thank you.       

[D. Morrowii]

How about Caryota mitis? 

[Merlyn]

I've run across a lot of the same problems here on the NW side of Orlando.  Viburnum is fairly quick in sun, and does okay in shade.  The issues I've had are random deaths of an entire plant, leaving a 6' gap in the hedge...and they get sparse down low if you grow them up to 15' tall.  If you chop the top at 8' or so they should stay fairly dense even in shade.  Viburnum Suspensum is a bit slower than Odoratissimum, but apparently grows better in shady spots.  Eric at Leu suggested Viburnum Awabuki and Cocculus Laurifolius. 

I have a Caryota Mitis in deep shade (West side of the house and shaded by Queen palm canopy) and it's very slow growing.  Eventually it'll give shade for the window it's intended to block, but it's going to take a LONG time.  Dypsis Lutescens does okay in shady areas as long as it has reasonably bright light.  It does get leggy, but if it grows dense enough the canes will block sightlines.  The same goes for some of the tight clumping Bambusa, they might grow okay in shade but be sparse in leaves.

I started a "shrubbery thread" here if you want to post questions and add any experience!

 

[Sandy Loam]

Thank you.  I took a look at the shrubbery page.  I think that sweet viburnum might end up being my best bet after all for the sunny spots, but I still don't quite know what to do with the shady areas for screening.   In the sunny spots, I would love to plant Clusia Guttifera instead of Viburnum Odoratissimum, but I don't think I have ever seen  huge hedges of Clusia in Orlando or Tampa like you see down in South Florida.  Way up in chilly Gainesville at my previous home, I tried clusia guttifera; they did fine there until a dramatic freeze took them all out.  Would that happen in Orlando or Tampa weather (similar to my climate in Winter Haven, FL)?  I need my privacy hedge to be bullet-proof in all seasons and I want it to have a formal/trimmed hedge appearance too.   

Edited April 13, 2023 by Sandy Loam

[Merlyn]

I doubt that Clusia Guttifera would be "bulletproof" anywhere along the I4 corridor.  I know for sure that Seagrapes are not frost hardy, but I've never tried them in a shady spot.  I did buy a Ficus Palmata "Icebox" from PDN, it's supposed to be a bit more leaf-hardy than Ficus Auriculata.  At least one local nursery sells Viburnum Suspensum, but I have not tried it either.

Eric said that Cocculus Laurifolius will grow fairly dense in sun or shade, and can be easily pruned to height as either a shrub or a small tree.  I'd love to find a good dense & hardy shrubbery for AM sun/PM shade, but it seems hard to find.  There's a lot that tolerate shade, but end up sparse and just aren't a good sight or sound block.  He thought that Lukas Nusery carried it, but I haven't stopped by to check.

[kinzyjr]

For reference, the record low in Winter Haven, FL is 19F using the combined records for the Winter Haven stations from 02/10/1941 to present.  For bulletproof, it would have to be able to survive and look decent after that unless a different metric is desired. 

The NOAA Station IDs:

• USW00012876 - Winter Haven Gilbert Airport (KGIF)
• USC00089707 - Winter Haven, FL

[Sandy Loam]

4 hours ago, Merlyn said:

I doubt that Clusia Guttifera would be "bulletproof" anywhere along the I4 corridor.  I know for sure that Seagrapes are not frost hardy, but I've never tried them in a shady spot.  I did buy a Ficus Palmata "Icebox" from PDN, it's supposed to be a bit more leaf-hardy than Ficus Auriculata.  At least one local nursery sells Viburnum Suspensum, but I have not tried it either.

Eric said that Cocculus Laurifolius will grow fairly dense in sun or shade, and can be easily pruned to height as either a shrub or a small tree.  I'd love to find a good dense & hardy shrubbery for AM sun/PM shade, but it seems hard to find.  There's a lot that tolerate shade, but end up sparse and just aren't a good sight or sound block.  He thought that Lukas Nusery carried it, but I haven't stopped by to check.

Thanks!  Is Cocculus Laurifolius evergreen in Orlando all year long?  Also, did Eric say that it is a fast grower in shade, or just that it is a dense grower in shade?  Dense is good too, at least for screening.

Edited April 14, 2023 by Sandy Loam

[Sandy Loam]

3 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

For reference, the record low in Winter Haven, FL is 19F using the combined records for the Winter Haven stations from 02/10/1941 to present.  For bulletproof, it would have to be able to survive and look decent after that unless a different metric is desired. 

The NOAA Station IDs:

• USW00012876 - Winter Haven Gilbert Airport (KGIF)
• USC00089707 - Winter Haven, FL

Yikes!  That is very limiting.  When I was living up in Gainesville, I saw 19 F only once in several years and that is a much colder climate than Winter Haven.  It seems as though, nowadays, a severe once-every-seven-years cold snap will bottom out at 30 F in Winter Haven.  That (30F) was the absolute coldest temperature reported this past Christmas holiday when, according to locals, Winter Haven experienced the coldest snap in a few years.   In other words, I could possibly go for 20 years and see nothing colder than 30 F if we take the last decade as a sampling  --- Am I mistaken?  

I drove past this Winter Haven house the other day and thought that it appeared to have a ficus hedge, but now it looks like something else on google maps street view.  Do you know this hedge might be?:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/950+N+Lake+Otis+Dr+SE,+Winter+Haven,+FL+33880/@28.0206621,-81.7130656,3a,75y,185.64h,84.17t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s20m0H2E2oNEMBzq2G7EX5Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m7!3m6!1s0x88dd12eb54e672a9:0xaf0c061d866aaca4!8m2!3d28.0202984!4d-81.713095!10e5!16s%2Fg%2F11c4lyv0wt

[Merlyn]

8 hours ago, Sandy Loam said:

Thanks!  Is Cocculus Laurifolius evergreen in Orlando all year long?  Also, did Eric say that it is a fast grower in shade, or just that it is a dense grower in shade?  Dense is good too, at least for screening.

Cocculus Laurifolius is supposed to be 20-25F hardy and originates in the Himalayas, so it should be totally hardy in Orlando.  I'd guess if you do ever hit 19F it would lose some leaves.  Viburnum Odoratissimum is at least a full zone hardier, most places list it as 8-10 and some say 7-10.  I didn't ask Eric about growth speed, I think I just asked if he had any suggestions on a good dense part-shade shrubbery.  I'll follow up in the Shrubbery Thread to see if he knows more.

[kinzyjr]

16 hours ago, Sandy Loam said:

Yikes!  That is very limiting.  When I was living up in Gainesville, I saw 19 F only once in several years and that is a much colder climate than Winter Haven.  It seems as though, nowadays, a severe once-every-seven-years cold snap will bottom out at 30 F in Winter Haven.  That (30F) was the absolute coldest temperature reported this past Christmas holiday when, according to locals, Winter Haven experienced the coldest snap in a few years.   In other words, I could possibly go for 20 years and see nothing colder than 30 F if we take the last decade as a sampling  --- Am I mistaken?  

I drove past this Winter Haven house the other day and thought that it appeared to have a ficus hedge, but now it looks like something else on google maps street view.  Do you know this hedge might be?:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/950+N+Lake+Otis+Dr+SE,+Winter+Haven,+FL+33880/@28.0206621,-81.7130656,3a,75y,185.64h,84.17t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s20m0H2E2oNEMBzq2G7EX5Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m7!3m6!1s0x88dd12eb54e672a9:0xaf0c061d866aaca4!8m2!3d28.0202984!4d-81.713095!10e5!16s%2Fg%2F11c4lyv0wt

A few quick notes:

• Winter Haven has hit 19F during three years (1989, 1985, 1962)
• The average annual low (AAL-30) over 30 years for Winter Haven if you combine the stations and round to the nearest whole number is 30F - you nailed it!
• Which metric you wish to use as bulletproof is solely at your discretion.  It will have a big impact in this case as to which option(s) are viable.
• The spreadsheet attached is the rest of the yearly lows for Winter Haven.
  • This sheet is an excerpt from the 2022_FloridaWeatherAlmanac.xlsx file posted in Florida Freeze and Weather Station Data on June 26th, 2022.
• The averages hide a lot of pain in the past. 
• The chart below will give you an idea:

202304141705_WinterHaven.xlsx

[Sandy Loam]

46 minutes ago, kinzyjr said:

A few quick notes:

• Winter Haven has hit 19F during three years (1989, 1985, 1962)
• The average annual low (AAL-30) over 30 years for Winter Haven if you combine the stations and round to the nearest whole number is 30F - you nailed it!
• Which metric you wish to use as bulletproof is solely at your discretion.  It will have a big impact in this case as to which option(s) are viable.
• The spreadsheet attached is the rest of the yearly lows for Winter Haven.
  • This sheet is an excerpt from the 2022_FloridaWeatherAlmanac.xlsx file posted in Florida Freeze and Weather Station Data on June 26th, 2022.
• The averages hide a lot of pain in the past. 
• The chart below will give you an idea:

202304141705_WinterHaven.xlsx 11.88 kB · 0 downloads

Thanks! When you say "average low", you mean the coldest temperature reached each year, correct?..... because the average overnight lows in general are much much warmer than that in winter.

[kinzyjr]

2 hours ago, Sandy Loam said:

Thanks! When you say "average low", you mean the coldest temperature reached each year, correct?..... because the average overnight lows in general are much much warmer than that in winter.

The Average Annual Low should more accurately called the Average Annual Minimum.  It's the average of the minimum temperatures for the year over a specified period of time.  For calculating zone assignments, the typical length of time is 30 years.  Since they are an average, you can end up with annual minimum temperatures that are higher some years and lower some years.  The lowest since 2000 was 21F in 2010.  I've often thought this number was recorded in error since there are Veitchia arecina in the vicinity as well as Chrysalidocarpus lutescens as tall as a two-story house.  The second lowest number since 2000 is 27F in 2018.

As far as the climate normals and monthly averages (https://www.ncei.noaa.gov/access/us-climate-normals/) :

[Sandy Loam]

7 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

The Average Annual Low should more accurately called the Average Annual Minimum.  It's the average of the minimum temperatures for the year over a specified period of time.  For calculating zone assignments, the typical length of time is 30 years.  Since they are an average, you can end up with annual minimum temperatures that are higher some years and lower some years.  The lowest since 2000 was 21F in 2010.  I've often thought this number was recorded in error since there are Veitchia arecina in the vicinity as well as Chrysalidocarpus lutescens as tall as a two-story house.  The second lowest number since 2000 is 27F in 2018.

As far as the climate normals and monthly averages (https://www.ncei.noaa.gov/access/us-climate-normals/) :

Thanks!   I haven't yet driven past a veitchia in Winter Haven, but there are Chrysalidocarpus lutescens all over the place --- and foxtail palms everywhere, some spindle palms here and there, some Roystonea royal palms, just plenty of crownshaft palms in general.  They don't look recently planted.   Are there more queen palms than anything?  Sure, but there certainly is a lot more palm diversity here than in Gainesville where I previously lived.

[Brian M]

Fwiw I had viburnum taller than my house (at least 20' I'd say) that grew in zero sun thanks to how our houses are positioned and my neighbors jungle. 

Edited April 15, 2023 by Brian M

[kinzyjr]

6 hours ago, Sandy Loam said:

Thanks!   I haven't yet driven past a veitchia in Winter Haven, but there are Chrysalidocarpus lutescens all over the place --- and foxtail palms everywhere, some spindle palms here and there, some Roystonea royal palms, just plenty of crownshaft palms in general.  They don't look recently planted.   Are there more queen palms than anything?  Sure, but there certainly is a lot more palm diversity here than in Gainesville where I previously lived.

Welcome.  If you want to see Veitchia, drive the south end of Lake Hamilton on Crump Rd.  You'll also see the other crownshaft palms in abundance in the area.

The diversity here is being somewhat forced by Lethal Bronzing, Fusarium Wilt, and other diseases killing a lot of the staple palms in the Phoenix, Syagrus, Washingtonia, and Sabal genera.  The palms in those genera are pretty much bulletproof to our cold snaps and used to dominate the landscape.  In particular, Phoenix have been dropping like flies for over a decade.  US-98 from Edgewood Dr to downtown used to be lined with Phoenix dactylifera, but disease has killed nearly all of them.

Since replacing a large date palm every 6 months to a year isn't cheap, the crownshaft palms that survived 2010 in spots gained popularity.  The most popular in Polk have been Foxtails, Royals, and Adonidia.  In the late 90s, bulk planting Foxtails would have been economically prohibitive due to the high cost of seeds (~$5/seed), but now you can literally walk around town and pick them off the ground at no cost.  Since they grow fast when they receive professional care, they make a good palm for growers since they also sell well to the average person.

We'll eventually get another nasty cold front that will take a lot of that stuff out, but it's been a good run and the old style of planting just isn't feasible long-term anymore due to the diseases.  The default genera that is hardy to our conditions of cold and disease is Livistona.  In particular, Livistona decora is hardy to our extreme cold and resistant to Lethal Bronzing.

Circling back to the hedge topic, there are going to be pros and cons to anything you plant.  If you want to plan on a worst case scenario, round that 19F record low off to 20F and start there.  That would reduce the list to consider significantly and make a decision a lot easier due to the limited amount of choices.  If you're more concerned about a "normal" year, figure on a hedge that looks good from 27F+ and work with those options.

[SubTropicRay]

On 4/12/2023 at 1:00 AM, Sandy Loam said:

 

How about Dypsis Lutenscens (Areca Palm)?  It forms a nice, dense screen, but isn't that only the case when grown in sun because it becomes leggy in shade (bad for screening) and is a slowpoke in the shade too? Perhaps I am wrong.  If so, please correct me because I would seriously consider it. 

 

C. lutescens may not be quite as robust in shade but would not call it leggy.  It still develops trunks with good girth and is not slowed by the shade.   Also, when frost burns up the ones in the open, the shaded ones will still be green.

[Merlyn]

2 hours ago, SubTropicRay said:

C. lutescens may not be quite as robust in shade but would not call it leggy.  It still develops trunks with good girth and is not slowed by the shade.   Also, when frost burns up the ones in the open, the shaded ones will still be green.

Yes, I checked a neighbor's big Lutescens cluster this morning.  My two clumps were burned from about 8-10' tall down to a bunch of sticks and a few live fronds about 5 feet tall.  My neighbor has a clump that's under high water oak canopy, and it was kinda crispy looking but still provided a dense visual barrier.  There was enough green in it that if you pruned out the dead stuff it would still be a good visual block.  That's with lows of 26-28F...temps in the low 20s would probably torch that clump even with canopy.

[SubTropicRay]

On 4/17/2023 at 3:52 PM, Merlyn said:

Yes, I checked a neighbor's big Lutescens cluster this morning.  My two clumps were burned from about 8-10' tall down to a bunch of sticks and a few live fronds about 5 feet tall.  My neighbor has a clump that's under high water oak canopy, and it was kinda crispy looking but still provided a dense visual barrier.  There was enough green in it that if you pruned out the dead stuff it would still be a good visual block.  That's with lows of 26-28F...temps in the low 20s would probably torch that clump even with canopy.

The low 20's thing is much less common than the 28-32F freezes that can get us yearly,  In the upper 20's, canopy is the difference between being at 32F or 28 and a brown canopy vs a green one.  When it gets back down to 23F again, the Dypsis will be the last thing we're concerned about.  At those temps, it's all the stuff we think is hardy that will be toast.

[Scott W]

You said clumping bamboo is a no go....however...

It is very easy to keep in check with a little semi annual maintenance.  I have no problems keeping mine from growing into the neighbors yard next to a chain link fence and keep it contained on my side using a 12 inch blade on my Sawzall.

This one is Sunburst and by far my fastest grower...with current footprint of about 6 feet by 10 feet, planted 7 years ago from a single culm division. 

This it now....

And this is how it looked in Nov 2017...

[Merlyn]

@Scott W that's a nice clump of Sunburst (aka Bambusa Pervariabilis Viridistriata).  I thought that Pervariabilis got a lot bigger, more like 35-45' and 2.5" culms.  But maybe the striated version is a bit smaller.  That clump looks like maybe 25' and 1-1.5" culms? 

For pruning out the stuff near the fence, do you just pick a line a foot or so from the fence and slice down through the cluster?  I tried this with Asian Lemon, but it grew so rapidly (30+ culms every few months) that it didn't really work to control it.  Eventually I removed that species because it was too much of a PITA.

For a hardy, tight clumping bamboo, there are a few Multiplex and Textilis that are mid-teens hardy.  Bambusa Textilis "RG Dwarf" is 15-20' tall and 1.5" culms and tight clumping with a slightly spreading top.  B. Textilis "Ladyfinger" is a tiny dense 10 footer, and B. Multiplex "Fernleaf" is a 10-20' tight clump.  B. Glaucophylla is about 25F hardy but very dense with a short 10' variegated type and a 20' taller green type.  I'm also trying out B. Tuldoides "Swollen Internode" as a 15-20' buddha-belly-ish type but hardy to 15F.

[Scott W]

2 hours ago, Merlyn said:

@Scott W that's a nice clump of Sunburst (aka Bambusa Pervariabilis Viridistriata).  I thought that Pervariabilis got a lot bigger, more like 35-45' and 2.5" culms.  But maybe the striated version is a bit smaller.  That clump looks like maybe 25' and 1-1.5" culms? 

For pruning out the stuff near the fence, do you just pick a line a foot or so from the fence and slice down through the cluster?  I tried this with Asian Lemon, but it grew so rapidly (30+ culms every few months) that it didn't really work to control it.  Eventually I removed that species because it was too much of a PITA.

Shoot, you're right, this is Asian Lemon, not Sunburst, thanks for that correction.  I'll get my calipers and check diameter, but I'm pretty sure this is near 2 inches.

To your question, I cut every new culm that grew up on the fence side, which i typically.pot up and sell.  Then I use the Sawzall like a plow and run it parallel to the fence several times to get any roots that are trying to expand in that direction.

I did buy Bambusa guangxiensis from Tropical Bamboo two years ago, but this did suffer some pretty good damage at 25F.  Waiting to see how it rebounds...