Banana and Coffee Plant help

[Victor G.]

Hello everyone.

I have a banana and coffee plant in Attica, Greece, which are starting to look terrible. Unfortunately, I am in studying in Germany, so I can't get to them and inspect what's causing the damage.
To be honest, the automatic watering system they are connected to is extremely unreliable, so there's a VERY high chance they're getting minimum water, or even no water at all.

However, I thought I'd ask here, if any of you guys has any experience with the plants and can spot what their problem is.

P.S. 1: Although it's starting to get cold in Greece, I believe it can't be cold damage, because a) they looked like that even in the warm days (so a month ago) and b) the temperature hasn't fallen below 48,5 degrees Fahrenheit and that was only briefly. We have a cold front now, so the temps move from 52F (night) to 56F (day), but the banana has seen way worse. Then again, a month ago it was 59-67F and they looked the same

P.S. 2: I fertilized them before I left Greece, in the end of September

Thank in advance!

[aabell]

It's too cold. Not cold enough to kill the banana outright but it's not growing new leaves with those temps. I wouldn't worry too much about it, bananas have plenty of energy stored in their rhizomes and will come back strong in the spring if it has plenty of water and fertilizer. 

I don't have too much experience growing coffee, but I have kept one in a pot for a while. They are much less forgiving than a banana, will drop leaves if it gets too cold, too hot, or too dry, and probably won't grow back if it dies down to the roots. I would assume the problem is the same as the banana, your average temperature is too low and there is not enough warmth to sustain growth for a tropical plant, even if the absolute low temperature is only around 50F.  I wouldn't necessary water more, you can easily drown any plant when it's semi-dormant.  Not sure if it will recover in spring or not. 

[Silas_Sancona]

Imo, Banana looks dry, though cool conditions could be causing issues too...  They're grown all over the place here and do fine under similar cool-ish spell conditions.. Wind will rough them up, like yours, though.  Water is always the biggest factor to keeping them full here.

Coffee may also be a water issue. Here at least ( Yes, it can grow in the Desert )  Coffee can only be grown in shade. Direct sun will fry em' to a crisp in no time.

Not sure if it is still there, but Campus Arboretum in Tucson ( mainly 9a ) supposedly had a specimen or two growing  in their " Magic Alley"  Is also gaining popularity in California ( S Cal ) where " test" plots have done better than expected.   https://californiagrown.org/blog/coffee-from-california/     /    https://civileats.com/2021/09/21/we-can-grow-coffee-in-california-but-should-we/

[Victor G.]

Thank you both for the answers!

@aabellIt's true that they don't like the cool weather. Not sure if the coffee plant will pull through as well, but I planted it as an experiment.
I did attach two additional photos; this is how the plants looked on the 20th of November. It's visible that they were on the decline, however if you look at the temperatures (third photo), I don't think it was too cool right? Up to the 20th of November, the weather was fairly mild, then the cold front kicked in.
So, while the recent low temps are definitely a setback, I'm thinking there's other reasons involved here? Or am I wrong?

@Silas_SanconaYeah, bananas have no problem with low temps. Mine survived last winter's freeze, which was a bad one. It even snowed in the area, which is highly unusual. Mango and dragon fruit survived too.

But the sun is also a problem here. In the summer, it's strong and will burn some plants completely. I made the mistake of planting dragon fruit in full sun - though that since they are a cactus they would love it. Big mistake, they look completely burned, yet still alive. For that reason, I put the coffee plant under a tree, so it will have some shadow.

The fact that you guys can grow coffee is good news to me - Phoenix does get some cold snaps if I recall correcly. I planted the coffee merely as an experiment, so let's see how it goes

Edited November 30, 2022 by Victor G.

[Silas_Sancona]

  On 11/30/2022 at 7:50 PM, Victor G. said:

@Silas_SanconaYeah, bananas have no problem with low temps. Mine survived last winter's freeze, which was a bad one. It even snowed in the area, which is highly unusual. Mango and dragon fruit survived too.

But the sun is also a problem here. In the summer, it's strong and will burn some plants completely. I made the mistake of planting dragon fruit in full sun - though that since they are a cactus they would love it. Big mistake, they look completely burned, yet still alive. For that reason, I put the coffee plant under a tree, so it will have some shadow.

The fact that you guys can grow coffee is good news to me - Phoenix does get some cold snaps if I recall correcly. I planted the coffee merely as an experiment, so let's see how it goes

 

 

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You'd be surprised just how many "standard" cacti fry in the sun here during the summer.. Add to that, if you water, when nights are hot ( overnight lows above 74F ) they can rot, even plants kept in more shade.  Not surprised Dragon fruit would scorch badly. I had a couple, plus several other Epiphyllum-type cacti and all burned badly ..or completely the first summer here, ...and that was with keeping them in -what i'd thought- was enough shade, lol..

Kind of scratch my head regarding how Bananas tolerate sun here.. Neighbor keeps his under a grove of Mesquite, and somehow, they still suffer some burn.. Don't think they get enough water myself.  Others he has in a more shaded area look pretty good.

At the same time, there's a nursery in central Phoenix that had several clumps of Banana growing in full sun ..and they looked pretty decent for the exposure.

With Coffee, as mentioned, near all day shade is the only way someone would have success w/ them here.. That and creating a specific bed just for them since our native soil is likely too alkaline.  ..That or growing in large tubs.  I've wanted to go down to Tucson to see how the one(s) that have supposedly survived down there look, if they're even still there.  I'm sure water quality effects them as well... Ie:  too much salt / calcium in the water causing leaf burn / nutrient deficiencies.

In California, i remember when news of people looking to grow Coffee first started getting attention.  I could see someone growing plants on a home garden- scale, but maybe not as a crop. Figured winters, even in the more ideal spots in S. Cal., would still be too cool / summers too dry..   Makes sense that pairing Coffee with trees like Avocado that would provide both an ideal shade canopy, and help modify the micro-level climate around the Coffee plants themselves, helping them grow and produce under less optimal conditions, compared to ideal Coffee growing areas around the globe anyway.. 

Can definitely see cool spells during our "Winter" ..Roughly Dec. - end of Feb.  Thing with any frost events is, majority of them anyway,  while it might hit 33, 31, or even 28F right at dawn,  once the sun is up, it usually warms up pretty quickly, ...at least into the 60s.  Rare that we see several days -if any- where you see a frosty start,  that stays "cold" thru the rest of the day  ..Say only in the low 50s or 40s. Big freeze events can happen of course, but are rare and weather pattern setup leading to such a cold outbreak has to be fairly unusual. Closer to Phoenix proper you get, far less likely you'll even drop below 32F compared to less developed areas of town, or "rural", open desert areas.

Even out in some of the less developed parts of town / open desert, it can be warmer than one would assume. Some places i visit, where there is no development for miles, are located in 9b territory.. Maybe not "tropical",  but definitely warmer than many would think.
 

[Victor G.]

  On 11/30/2022 at 9:07 PM, Silas_Sancona said:

You'd be surprised just how many "standard" cacti fry in the sun here during the summer.. Add to that, if you water, when nights are hot ( overnight lows above 74F ) they can rot, even plants kept in more shade.  Not surprised Dragon fruit would scorch badly. I had a couple, plus several other Epiphyllum-type cacti and all burned badly ..or completely the first summer here, ...and that was with keeping them in -what i'd thought- was enough shade, lol..

Kind of scratch my head regarding how Bananas tolerate sun here.. Neighbor keeps his under a grove of Mesquite, and somehow, they still suffer some burn.. Don't think they get enough water myself.  Others he has in a more shaded area look pretty good.

At the same time, there's a nursery in central Phoenix that had several clumps of Banana growing in full sun ..and they looked pretty decent for the exposure.

With Coffee, as mentioned, near all day shade is the only way someone would have success w/ them here.. That and creating a specific bed just for them since our native soil is likely too alkaline.  ..That or growing in large tubs.  I've wanted to go down to Tucson to see how the one(s) that have supposedly survived down there look, if they're even still there.  I'm sure water quality effects them as well... Ie:  too much salt / calcium in the water causing leaf burn / nutrient deficiencies.

In California, i remember when news of people looking to grow Coffee first started getting attention.  I could see someone growing plants on a home garden- scale, but maybe not as a crop. Figured winters, even in the more ideal spots in S. Cal., would still be too cool / summers too dry..   Makes sense that pairing Coffee with trees like Avocado that would provide both an ideal shade canopy, and help modify the micro-level climate around the Coffee plants themselves, helping them grow and produce under less optimal conditions, compared to ideal Coffee growing areas around the globe anyway.. 

Can definitely see cool spells during our "Winter" ..Roughly Dec. - end of Feb.  Thing with any frost events is, majority of them anyway,  while it might hit 33, 31, or even 28F right at dawn,  once the sun is up, it usually warms up pretty quickly, ...at least into the 60s.  Rare that we see several days -if any- where you see a frosty start,  that stays "cold" thru the rest of the day  ..Say only in the low 50s or 40s. Big freeze events can happen of course, but are rare and weather pattern setup leading to such a cold outbreak has to be fairly unusual. Closer to Phoenix proper you get, far less likely you'll even drop below 32F compared to less developed areas of town, or "rural", open desert areas.

Even out in some of the less developed parts of town / open desert, it can be warmer than one would assume. Some places i visit, where there is no development for miles, are located in 9b territory.. Maybe not "tropical",  but definitely warmer than many would think.
 

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Very well written info, thanks a lot!

We have mild winters here as well (it helps that I'm located exactly near the sea). Usually we won't cross the 32F frost benchmark.

Unfortunately, during our cold spells, we have a crazy wind from the north, keeping out high temperatures very low. During last winter's cold front, for about two to three days the temperature was moving between 35 and 44F, with absolute low 33F at some point. That's what scares me. But let's see how that goes

[Jubaea]

I don't think the cold temperatures down to 9C or 10C would be a problem for the coffee plant.  I think that it is something to do with the water, water quality or soil and hopefully not a disease in the soil.  I have a couple of small plants and so far this year they have seen many nights down to 3C to 5C without a problem.  The plants do not like prolonged cool periods or frost.  Coffee is being produced here in the Santa Barbara, California area growing outdoors in ground.

[Victor G.]

  On 12/2/2022 at 5:07 AM, Jubaea said:

I don't think the cold temperatures down to 9C or 10C would be a problem for the coffee plant.  I think that it is something to do with the water, water quality or soil and hopefully not a disease in the soil.  I have a couple of small plants and so far this year they have seen many nights down to 3C to 5C without a problem.  The plants do not like prolonged cool periods or frost.  Coffee is being produced here in the Santa Barbara, California area growing outdoors in ground.

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Thanks for the feedback! I too thought that, while 9C might cause the plant to stop growing, it wouldn't put too much stress on it.
At my place, the temperature will definitely get below 3C at least one time, but above 0C. I don't know if it will survive, but I hope for the best.

The irrigation system is extremely old, probably has a few holes here and there and I don't trust it to water properly. Plus the banana and coffee plant are the last plants connected to it, so they get the least water (especially if there are holes).
The funny thing is, our last winter was very heavy and long, so when I visited the place in April, I feared the plants weren't going to be alive. The banana looked perfect! It wasn't much taller, but it had green and intact leaves and produced a stunning canopy. Then, summer came and the (probably faulty) irrigation system kicked in. When I visited again in August, the banana was almost completely dried out.
That's why I'm thinking it's the water. But I asked here cause I don't have any experience with coffee plants; you guys will probably know better.

Do you know if they can still grow coffee outside a bit futher north (in California or anywhere else). I would love to get to know the limits of the plant.

[dalmatiansoap]

Don't know about coffee but banana really looks in the need of food and water. My climate is even a bit colder than yours (most likely) and mine still didn't show much stress from the cold and wind. Picture is from 2 weeks ago 

[Victor G.]

  On 12/2/2022 at 4:38 PM, dalmatiansoap said:

Don't know about coffee but banana really looks in the need of food and water. My climate is even a bit colder than yours (most likely) and mine still didn't show much stress from the cold and wind. Picture is from 2 weeks ago 

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I gave it a good load of fertilizer at the end of September. Plus I replaced the top soil with a compost-rich new soil, like I always do.
I know that the banana plant needs fertlizer more often that other plants (it sucks the nutrients off the ground like crazy), but still.

I see you also have dragon fruit, right?
Do you leave the bananas and dragon fruit unprotected in the winter, or so you protect them somehow?

[Silas_Sancona]

  On 12/2/2022 at 11:32 AM, Victor G. said:

 

Do you know if they can still grow coffee outside a bit futher north (in California or anywhere else). I would love to get to know the limits of the plant.

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It's been awhile, but if i remember correctly, there was someone growing Coffee plants up in the Bay Area ( San Francisco Bay Area ) ..More specifically, near where i grew up in San Jose.  That said, i think that person left CA for Hawaii to cultivate a wider diversity of tropical fruits.  Back in San Jose, i believe the person was growing unusual -to the area- things like Jaboticaba, ..some other, less common / tender-ish Eugenia- type fruits, ..and some other stuff as well.  I myself did ok w/ what stuff i had at the time, all potted though.. ( Jaboticaba, some other common Eugenia sp. fruits... Allspice, Ice Cream Bean, etc )

While S. Cal can experience the same conditions at times, Cold / wet winters can be a bigger challenge up there simply because such patterns can persist longer in the northern part of the state, compared to S. Cal. anyway.. Regardless, far more things can survive  "that far north"  than people would assume. No doubt that includes Coffee.

You might see if you can find discussions on California- grown Coffee experiences over on the International Tropical Fruit Forum..  Be aware though, that forum is about as well known as Palm Talk, so finding specific thread discussions to read over might take a little extra digging.. 

 

[Victor G.]

  On 12/2/2022 at 6:25 PM, Silas_Sancona said:

It's been awhile, but if i remember correctly, there was someone growing Coffee plants up in the Bay Area ( San Francisco Bay Area ) ..More specifically, near where i grew up in San Jose.  That said, i think that person left CA for Hawaii to cultivate a wider diversity of tropical fruits.  Back in San Jose, i believe the person was growing unusual -to the area- things like Jaboticaba, ..some other, less common / tender-ish Eugenia- type fruits, ..and some other stuff as well.  I myself did ok w/ what stuff i had at the time, all potted though.. ( Jaboticaba, some other common Eugenia sp. fruits... Allspice, Ice Cream Bean, etc )

While S. Cal can experience the same conditions at times, Cold / wet winters can be a bigger challenge up there simply because such patterns can persist longer in the northern part of the state, compared to S. Cal. anyway.. Regardless, far more things can survive  "that far north"  than people would assume. No doubt that includes Coffee.

You might see if you can find discussions on California- grown Coffee experiences over on the International Tropical Fruit Forum..  Be aware though, that forum is about as well known as Palm Talk, so finding specific thread discussions to read over might take a little extra digging.. 

 

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Interesting! From what I see, our winters are only very slightly warmer than San Jose's, which is very encouraging. Our summers are much much warmer, so that might give the plants a good growing season. The fact that I am located near the sea, keeps summer highs relatively mild (around 90-95F) compared to mainland Attica, where they go into the 100s some days. We almost lost an avocado due to heat.

I plan to leave Germany and move back to Greece in less than a year. I will also try to plant various tropicals (mostly from seed though because of the cost) and see which survive and which not. That will probably give me a better idea of the place's potential.

I didn't know an International Tropical Fruit Forum existed, but I'll make sure to check it out!
Many thanks for the suggestions and the feedback!

[dalmatiansoap]

  On 12/2/2022 at 4:57 PM, Victor G. said:

 

I see you also have dragon fruit, right?
Do you leave the bananas and dragon fruit unprotected in the winter, or so you protect them somehow?

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I did use some protection on Dragon fruit and smaller seedlings. Bananas are just to big to protect seriously .

Picture is taken mid December last year, you can notice the snow on the mountain in the back

Edited December 3, 2022 by dalmatiansoap

[iko.]

I'd worry about the coffee, not the banana. I'm quite positive the banana will grow new leaves in spring. It's relatively hard to kill them.

The coffee needs more water. At least, until it's more established. I wouldn't worry that much for the temperatures in your case. I have a few plants of coffee in a climate not much different than yours. I keep them in the shade and with higher humidity. Good luck!

[Victor G.]

  On 12/3/2022 at 10:45 AM, dalmatiansoap said:

I did use some protection on Dragon fruit and smaller seedlings. Bananas are just to big to protect seriously .

Picture is taken mid December last year, you can notice the snow on the mountain in the back

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Yeah, it's harder to protect bananas once they get tall. I left my dragon fruit exposed to the cold and they did fine. They even looked better after the winter than in the summer, where they get burned by the sun.
The lower (base) leaf is burned completely in both of them, but there is something like a stem inside, which nutrients use to travel. This is intact, so they're both alive.

I know I'm never gonna see fruit from them, I just keep them alive to see how well they do with the climate.
Once I move back permanently, I will plant some more, more wisely this time.

[Victor G.]

  On 12/3/2022 at 6:35 PM, iko. said:

The coffee needs more water. At least, until it's more established. I wouldn't worry that much for the temperatures in your case. I have a few plants of coffee in a climate not much different than yours. I keep them in the shade and with higher humidity. Good luck!

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Thanks! That's very encouraging to hear!
Pretty much everyone in Greece thinks coffee is way out of our league, but I'd like to give it a try. There have been some isolated growers that succeeded (but not commercially).