Zombie Trees.. When a Tree doesn't know it is dead

[Silas_Sancona]

Title says it all..  Sometimes, even after suffering fatal damage, a tree can " live on " while it's structure continues to deteriorate.  While perhaps not an issue when small, bigger trees can present obvious hazards in a landscape. Always best to take 'em out before they take you out ..or the home you live in.  These two are on the chopping block for next Fall.

2 of 3 White Mulberry in the new yard.. Look perfectly healthy when viewed from one side, but a detailed look over reveals the dangers. ( Photo was taken as i was taking down a wet summers worth of Bermuda Grass at the new house ..with a weed wacker. Already i the process of taking out half of it out front )




Appears years of being fully exposed to summer sun ..on top of  water damage from sprinklers, ..and whatever else got to it initially has worked it's way all the way down to the heartwood on the bigger tree. Insects, doing what they do, continue the work of recycling dead and dying material, even as the Cambium layer attempts to heal over the damaged area. Roots have also rotted away around a good portion of the base, except for a rather large one on the north side of the tree that looks relatively healthy, at least from the outside. 





2nd, smaller tree also suffered the same fate, but has been quicker to decline since the re is much less Cambium layer left. Regardless, would come down fairly easily if i pushed hard enough.



Not sure what i'll put in for the bigger tree yet, but the smaller Mulberry's replacement is already planted..  That would be this seed grown Albizia sinaloensis.. At a year old, it was already over 6ft in height before i topped it when preparing stuff for the potential move to San Diego.


Fairly sure it will add back the couple feet removed -and then some- by next fall, esp. if next summer if favorable.  Might not be here to see it reach prime size, but these can top out at 50ft, -possibly taller- in habitat in Southern Sonora / Sinaloa.  Perfect specimens in Scottsdale, and the UofA Campus Arboretum in Tucson.  As far as i'm aware, there aren't any other specimens in residential yards anywhere in the area. Starting more come spring.


3rd Mulberry by the shed is healthy enough to say for the time being.

..Same w/ this Ficus nitida / microcarpa on the north side of the backyard.. Goal is to double it's height / overall size in the next year or two. There's a bigger specimen right around the corner, nestled up to one of the biggest, healthiest Jacarandas i have seen around town.

 

[Fusca]

Nathan, sounds like you have made the move back to CA.  If so congrats!

[Silas_Sancona]

2 hours ago, Fusca said:

Nathan, sounds like you have made the move back to CA.  If so congrats!

  Thank you sir..

Unfortunately, after spending 3 months looking at places, ..and having an agent looking at places as well, that goal fell through..  Essentially, very few people would call back, or, those that did would have a potential place rented before the agent could go look at the place.. So, here for a bit longer.. May try out there again later, or..  maybe head south.. ( Not a bad option, if things go that way ) Need to recoup funds for now  regardless of where things stand in a year or two..  Know now movers will be hired next time, lol

Wish i were there, but not thrilled they made it easier for ..pretty much anyone..  to try and squeeze 1-3 housing units on a residential -sized lot out there..  experienced this first hand while looking at a place in Escondido. ( Landlord decided he was going to squeeze two studio apartments onto a 10K sqft lot.  while we were trying to nail down the place )  there was some other stuff that occurred as well.. mainly connected to people not calling other people back, fumbling essential paperwork, making it take much longer than it should have to get things done before deadlines.

Luckily, the landlord we've been renting from bought another place nearby, after selling the place we've been in ..and offered up the new place.  Really good person. Taking care of his office as well.  Will be interesting to see who the old house is sold to, and what is done ( if anything ) to it.

Look at it this way.. Bigger house, new yards to work with ( that need some work, lol ) ...and, unlike the old house, yards are irrigated this time, and planning on installing / converting sprinkler heads to drip as i clear out grass and put in plants.  More open / grass covered areas / less concrete here also which will hopefully reduce how hot the house can get in summer, esp. if the weather is like last year..   We'll see how that goes obviously..

 Btw, the " special " Plumeria i was debating digging?  is in the ground, between 2 bedroom windows in an area where it will get some summer shade ( from roughly 10 am - rest of the day ) from a massive Olive tree. Planted the remaining, potted Plumeria i had left in another spot.. Have a goal of putting in 3 more this year.  Lots of open areas to play with i'll post about soon

All in all, could be worse..  As the saying goes, Stuff happens. Gotta role w/ it ..and find the positives when things don't head in the direction you'd thought.. There's a reason those plans didn't quite pan out the way you'd hoped. Whether the answer reveals itself now, ..or later. 

Only not so great thing is we still have a direct view or our junk collecting neighbor ..and their herd of Feral Cats, haha. Using something from the old house to create what should be an effective cat barrier in a couple areas.. particularly a side yard area that may end up a great spot for Vegetables.

Edited December 11, 2021 by Silas_Sancona
edit

[ahosey01]

22 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Title says it all..  Sometimes, even after suffering fatal damage, a tree can " live on " while it's structure continues to deteriorate.  While perhaps not an issue when small, bigger trees can present obvious hazards in a landscape. Always best to take 'em out before they take you out ..or the home you live in.  These two are on the chopping block for next Fall.

2 of 3 White Mulberry in the new yard.. Look perfectly healthy when viewed from one side, but a detailed look over reveals the dangers. ( Photo was taken as i was taking down a wet summers worth of Bermuda Grass at the new house ..with a weed wacker. Already i the process of taking out half of it out front )




Appears years of being fully exposed to summer sun ..on top of  water damage from sprinklers, ..and whatever else got to it initially has worked it's way all the way down to the heartwood on the bigger tree. Insects, doing what they do, continue the work of recycling dead and dying material, even as the Cambium layer attempts to heal over the damaged area. Roots have also rotted away around a good portion of the base, except for a rather large one on the north side of the tree that looks relatively healthy, at least from the outside. 





2nd, smaller tree also suffered the same fate, but has been quicker to decline since the re is much less Cambium layer left. Regardless, would come down fairly easily if i pushed hard enough.



Not sure what i'll put in for the bigger tree yet, but the smaller Mulberry's replacement is already planted..  That would be this seed grown Albizia sinaloensis.. At a year old, it was already over 6ft in height before i topped it when preparing stuff for the potential move to San Diego.


Fairly sure it will add back the couple feet removed -and then some- by next fall, esp. if next summer if favorable.  Might not be here to see it reach prime size, but these can top out at 50ft, -possibly taller- in habitat in Southern Sonora / Sinaloa.  Perfect specimens in Scottsdale, and the UofA Campus Arboretum in Tucson.  As far as i'm aware, there aren't any other specimens in residential yards anywhere in the area. Starting more come spring.


3rd Mulberry by the shed is healthy enough to say for the time being.

..Same w/ this Ficus nitida / microcarpa on the north side of the backyard.. Goal is to double it's height / overall size in the next year or two. There's a bigger specimen right around the corner, nestled up to one of the biggest, healthiest Jacarandas i have seen around town.

 

Share a photo of the Jacaranda!

”Healthy” and “Jacaranda” are generally not spoken in the same sentence in Phoenix.

[Silas_Sancona]

21 minutes ago, ahosey01 said:

Share a photo of the Jacaranda!

”Healthy” and “Jacaranda” are generally not spoken in the same sentence in Phoenix.

Will get pictures when it flowers in April. There's another nearby that has done pretty good as well, sans some weird die back that it had experienced.

[ahosey01]

20 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Will get pictures when it flowers in April. There's another nearby that has done pretty good as well, sans some weird die back that it had experienced.

What are you thinking to replace the second mulberry with?

[Silas_Sancona]

1 hour ago, ahosey01 said:

What are you thinking to replace the second mulberry with?

The big one?.. rolling through different options in mind atm.. Have to call out the utilities to have the yards ( back, esp ) marked / flagged since our electric is underground and been told our sewer goes into the Alley instead of the street.

Could put in something kind of ordinary like a Thornless Honey Mesquite..  or could head in a completely different direction and put in something that is a first of it's kind ( as far as i am aware ) here..

That list includes options like:  Enterolobium, ..though this might get wayy too large for the space.. Grown well at the UofA Campus Arboretum, so will do fine here..  Peltophorum  ..most likely P.  dubium ( the hardiest and largest.  Other 2 or 3 sp. will grow here also.  ..An option too.. )  Could also do Tamarind.. there is already a big one around the corner, in a yard w/ 3 Cassia fistula planted. 

Gumbo Limbo was another thought, if i could find a decent sized, shippable specimen. My thought is this Bursera might do better in the ground than they did in pots for me. Could be wrong though.

Could do Cassia fistula, like my neighbor up the block ..or one of the other tropical - looking Cassia ( Javacina, marginata, etc.. Not sure how well they'd stand up to the heat / dry air though, esp. when younger )

Area isn't large enough to throw in any of my Ficus < petiolaris v. petiolaris, and v. palmeri,   ..and pertusa >  ..or any of the other 7 or 8 native Ficus sp. from Sonora / Sinaloa i might be able to find.

Have another area out front.. large 14' X 25' cut out a tree is going into also.  Options listed here are options for that spot also..  as is Ipomoea arborescens, or another Arborescent /  tree type Morning Glory sp. from Mexico.  ...Or something simple, but nice, like an Ironwood ( Olneya ).

We'll see what i decide on later..

[ahosey01]

11 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

The big one?.. rolling through different options in mind atm.. Have to call out the utilities to have the yards ( back, esp ) marked / flagged since our electric is underground and been told our sewer goes into the Alley instead of the street.

Could put in something kind of ordinary like a Thornless Honey Mesquite..  or could head in a completely different direction and put in something that is a first of it's kind ( as far as i am aware ) here..

That list includes options like:  Enterolobium, ..though this might get wayy too large for the space.. Grown well at the UofA Campus Arboretum, so will do fine here..  Peltophorum  ..most likely P.  dubium ( the hardiest and largest.  Other 2 or 3 sp. will grow here also.  ..An option too.. )  Could also do Tamarind.. there is already a big one around the corner, in a yard w/ 3 Cassia fistula planted. 

Gumbo Limbo was another thought, if i could find a decent sized, shippable specimen. My thought is this Bursera might do better in the ground than they did in pots for me. Could be wrong though.

Could do Cassia fistula, like my neighbor up the block ..or one of the other tropical - looking Cassia ( Javacina, marginata, etc.. Not sure how well they'd stand up to the heat / dry air though, esp. when younger )

Area isn't large enough to throw in any of my Ficus < petiolaris v. petiolaris, and v. palmeri,   ..and pertusa >  ..or any of the other 7 or 8 native Ficus sp. from Sonora / Sinaloa i might be able to find.

Have another area out front.. large 14' X 25' cut out a tree is going into also.  Options listed here are options for that spot also..  as is Ipomoea arborescens, or another Arborescent /  tree type Morning Glory sp. from Mexico.  ...Or something simple, but nice, like an Ironwood ( Olneya ).

We'll see what i decide on later..

How about Chir Pine?

You and I had talked about this species before.  There's one naturalized in the bottom of the Hassayampa River by my house that is growing without irrigation - and has been for over 20 years.  It looks great.  Trunk is completely exposed to western sun too, and not a hint of sunscald.

Evergreen Nursery in Carmel Valley used to sell this tree, but was recently bought out by Moon Valley (puke).  I found out they still have about 60 left over.  I'm going to buy some for my yard.

[Silas_Sancona]

1 hour ago, ahosey01 said:

How about Chir Pine?

You and I had talked about this species before.  There's one naturalized in the bottom of the Hassayampa River by my house that is growing without irrigation - and has been for over 20 years.  It looks great.  Trunk is completely exposed to western sun too, and not a hint of sunscald.

Evergreen Nursery in Carmel Valley used to sell this tree, but was recently bought out by Moon Valley (puke).  I found out they still have about 60 left over.  I'm going to buy some for my yard.

If it fit the character of the neighborhood, ..and wouldn't be killed by whatever it taking out pines locally,  that might be a consideration.  Apparently used to be some sp. of pine planted in a east facing side yard on the northeast side of the house, but it was removed, likely after being killed like others here.

If the yard ( either ) were big enough, Montezuma Cypress might be the only other conifer i'd consider. 



 

[ahosey01]

13 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

If it fit the character of the neighborhood, ..and wouldn't be killed by whatever it taking out pines locally,  that might be a consideration.  Apparently used to be some sp. of pine planted in a east facing side yard on the northeast side of the house, but it was removed, likely after being killed like others here.

If the yard ( either ) were big enough, Montezuma Cypress might be the only other conifer i'd consider. 



 

Are the pines locally dying?

Have heard that if they’re Eldarica, apparently there’s a recently ID’d behavior that the U of A and ASU have botanists studying where insufficient water in the summer months results in spontaneous (but delayed - symptoms don’t show til fall or winter) death of the tree.  They believe they’ve isolated it to Eldarica.  I’ll have to see if I can find any info on that.

It makes sense too, because the ones in my neighborhood that have tapped the groundwater look BEAUTIFUL.  But the ones a mile up the hill, 500ft higher and in rocky “soil” - some of those croaked in the last month or two.

[Silas_Sancona]

1 hour ago, ahosey01 said:

Are the pines locally dying?

Have heard that if they’re Eldarica, apparently there’s a recently ID’d behavior that the U of A and ASU have botanists studying where insufficient water in the summer months results in spontaneous (but delayed - symptoms don’t show til fall or winter) death of the tree.  They believe they’ve isolated it to Eldarica.  I’ll have to see if I can find any info on that.

It makes sense too, because the ones in my neighborhood that have tapped the groundwater look BEAUTIFUL.  But the ones a mile up the hill, 500ft higher and in rocky “soil” - some of those croaked in the last month or two.

Eldarica are prime targets for sure, but other pines are suffering the same, slow fate around town also.. Regardless, not a fit for options. Main focus here is flowering things, with an emphasis on stuff from Southern Sonora,  since those things handle heat, increasingly drier winters in the decades ahead, and are are regionally native.. with some other things thrown in.

 

[ahosey01]

45 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Eldarica are prime targets for sure, but other pines are suffering the same, slow fate around town also.. Regardless, not a fit for options. Main focus here is flowering things, with an emphasis on stuff from Southern Sonora,  since those things handle heat, increasingly drier winters in the decades ahead, and are are regionally native.. with some other things thrown in.

 

You said drought tolerant so this probably doesn’t foot your bill, but if my dawn redwood experiment doesn’t pan out, I’ve thought I’d try Populus brandegeei in the detention pond.

[chinandega81]

My experience living in the Imperial Valley (hotter and drier than Phoenix, cooler in the winter lows too) is that Black Olive (buceras bucida) and Sea Grape trees (both from Florida) do very well.  They should be used more widely in the lower desert. They obviously have high water requirements though, but they don't get out of control or massive like in Florida.

[Silas_Sancona]

14 minutes ago, chinandega81 said:

My experience living in the Imperial Valley (hotter and drier than Phoenix, cooler in the winter lows too) is that Black Olive (buceras bucida) and Sea Grape trees (both from Florida) do very well.  They should be used more widely in the lower desert. They obviously have high water requirements though, but they don't get out of control or massive like in Florida.

Sea Grape ..or it's relative from Sonora, -if i could find one, is another thing i thought about for one of the areas i'll be planting.  Only thing that gives me pause w/ Sea Grape  is recalling the time spent cleaning up dozens of specimens planted at a Yacht club in Clearwater after the big freeze of 2010. Not sure our landlord would appreciate it once someone other than me has to maintain / clean up after it, lol..

Agree these, Black Olive, Both West Indian ..and the Mahogany sp. that grows in Southern Baja / Coastal Sinaloa ...and Gumbo Limbo need to be tried more here.. Wish i knew where to get my hands on fresh Gumbo Limbo and Mahogany seed..
 

[Peter]

Would a Brachychiton rupestris make it out there Nathan?

[Silas_Sancona]

38 minutes ago, Peter said:

Would a Brachychiton rupestris make it out there Nathan?

Yes, While not as common as B. populneus, there are a few rupestris around town..  At least one at Boyce, up on an inaccessible hill, and another big one up at the Xeric Demo Garden in Glendale..

Trick is catching that one when the seed is ripe, lol.. ( Always manage to visit that tree after  all the seed has fallen / been eaten / destroyed by the birds  )

[ahosey01]

1 hour ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Yes, While not as common as B. populneus, there are a few rupestris around town..  At least one at Boyce, up on an inaccessible hill, and another big one up at the Xeric Demo Garden in Glendale..

Trick is catching that one when the seed is ripe, lol.. ( Always manage to visit that tree after  all the seed has fallen / been eaten / destroyed by the birds  )

Mountain states wholesale has like 8 big, fat ones that set seed right in front of their sales office.  They’re giant.

[Silas_Sancona]

5 minutes ago, ahosey01 said:

Mountain states wholesale has like 8 big, fat ones that set seed right in front of their sales office.  They’re giant.

The one in Glendale is big..


One(s) at Boyce aren't far behind either..

[ahosey01]

7 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

The one in Glendale is big..


One(s) at Boyce aren't far behind either..

I wonder if these get roasted by Texas Root Rot in the hot summers like Brachychiton populneus?

Lots of dead ones around Phoenix when I go down there.  I don't know that the soil up here in Wickenburg gets hot enough to actually harbor Texas Root Rot.

[Silas_Sancona]

1 hour ago, ahosey01 said:

I wonder if these get roasted by Texas Root Rot in the hot summers like Brachychiton populneus?

Lots of dead ones around Phoenix when I go down there.  I don't know that the soil up here in Wickenburg gets hot enough to actually harbor Texas Root Rot.

If popuneus is susceptible, more than likely all Brachychiton sp. are.. Only ones i have seen here that up and died was more heat related than anything else apparent.  Since soil temps reach 28C pretty much everywhere here, wouldn't doubt TRR is present in the soil up there. Apparently found pretty much anywhere below the rim, inc Sedona, Kingman, Yuma, and Sonoita. Is present in the deserts in CA, but hasn't shown up closer to the coast, - yet -.


..This is another good reason regionally native trees from nearby Mexico are at the top of the list of considerations as well.
 

Edited December 13, 2021 by Silas_Sancona
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[ahosey01]

1 hour ago, Silas_Sancona said:

If popuneus is susceptible, more than likely all Brachychiton sp. are.. Only ones i have seen here that up and died was more heat related than anything else apparent.  Since soil temps reach 28C pretty much everywhere here, wouldn't doubt TRR is present in the soil up there. Apparently found pretty much anywhere below the rim, inc Sedona, Kingman, Yuma, and Sonoita. Is present in the deserts in CA, but hasn't shown up closer to the coast, - yet -.


..This is another good reason regionally native trees from nearby Mexico are at the top of the list of considerations as well.
 

I think it’s predominantly a function of where they’ve previously done cotton farming.  At least that’s what I was told.

[Peter]

I just harvested some seeds from my B rupestris if you want some Nathan.    What about a Texas Ebony?  I'm liking those more and more.

[Silas_Sancona]

11 hours ago, Peter said:

I just harvested some seeds from my B rupestris if you want some Nathan.    What about a Texas Ebony?  I'm liking those more and more.

May have to take you up on the offer..  Will send you a pm. 

Texas Ebony is on the list of considerations for the spot out back for sure.. Do want something bold and flowery out there though since there is plenty of " green " back there, and in the rest of the neighborhood..  ( thinking on whether or not there's enough space to plant it, plus something like Cassia fistula or Bulnesia arborea.. ) GREAT tree regardless..

[Peter]

Is there enough room for a Ceiba?  I've also got some Rubriflora hybrid seedlings that will have killer flowers.

[Silas_Sancona]

5 hours ago, Peter said:

Is there enough room for a Ceiba?  I've also got some Rubriflora hybrid seedlings that will have killer flowers.

I actually thought about sacrificing one of my rubriflora, but would probably worry about it too much after leaving it here, lol..  Esp. the yard ended up being maintained by a mow 'n blow crew after moving again, or our landlord sells this house at a later time.

[Peter]

Aah, forgot that you had some of them already!

 

[Silas_Sancona]

13 minutes ago, Peter said:

Aah, forgot that you had some of them already!

 

  No worries.. The older ones seem to have reached the age where some spikes started developing on the trunks..  1 of the two i'd started from cuttings survived last summer and is gaining size too.

Wonder how easy these might be to semi- bonsai? ..Say keep at roughly 10ft  in something like a 30 / 45gal. Have seen Ceiba malabaricum flowering in a 24gal in the past.  Pseudobombax can be kept shorter and still flower as well.