Frog-safe leaf roller caterpillar killer

[Keys6505]

So the leaf rollers are absolutely destroying my canna.  I'll add pics tomorrow but it's 100x worse this year than it was last.  I just let the dog out and I can ACTUALLY HEAR THEM eating my plants!  I know it sounds nuts, but I'm telling you, it sounds like someone crunching on a salad when you're standing in front of the canna.  I know there's plenty of chemicals out there, but there's a lot of tree frogs that hang out in those canna too and I don't want to nuke everything.  Any recommendations for a critter safe pesticide?  

[Silas_Sancona]

45 minutes ago, Keys6505 said:

So the leaf rollers are absolutely destroying my canna.  I'll add pics tomorrow but it's 100x worse this year than it was last.  I just let the dog out and I can ACTUALLY HEAR THEM eating my plants!  I know it sounds nuts, but I'm telling you, it sounds like someone crunching on a salad when you're standing in front of the canna.  I know there's plenty of chemicals out there, but there's a lot of tree frogs that hang out in those canna too and I don't want to nuke everything.  Any recommendations for a critter safe pesticide?  

 A good question since Frogs/ Toads, other Amphibians generally absorb moisture / other chemicals through their skin.  May be a case where you'll have to manually remove the bugs ( you can get a pair of Feeding Tongs < for reptiles/ other critters > to remove them ( the leaf rollers ) if doing so by hand is a challenge ).  Wouldn't be surprised if the frogs do some bug removal on their own..

[ColdBonsai]

9 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

 A good question since Frogs/ Toads, other Amphibians generally absorb moisture / other chemicals through their skin.  May be a case where you'll have to manually remove the bugs ( you can get a pair of Feeding Tongs < for reptiles/ other critters > to remove them ( the leaf rollers ) if doing so by hand is a challenge ).  Wouldn't be surprised if the frogs do some bug removal on their own..

Pretty much what Silas_Sancona said. The most "friendly" pest control I know of is dawn dish soap and water sprayed on the plant, but even that can be harmful to amphibians. 

I have a similar problem with weevils and a pacific chorus frog population in my yard. My plan? Smash the weevils when I see them, and make my yard frog friendly by providing cover and leaving water trays scattered around for them to use. I figure between my smashing and their snacking we can keep it under control.

Pic of a weevil hunter in one of my pots:

[Keys6505]

If I have to pick them off one by one I think I'm already too far gone.  Last year it tried picking them off, this year I ga e up after I saw how outnumbered I was.  I started handling it with a pair of scissors, but there's soooooo many and even if I spend an hour "clearing" the plants, the next day there's a billion new rolls again.  And the moths are all over the plants all day long laying the eggs.  I have a lot of canna and this is what they all look like now.  Plus one of my welcome tenants which is why I won't nuke everything.

[Silas_Sancona]

1 hour ago, Keys6505 said:

If I have to pick them off one by one I think I'm already too far gone.  Last year it tried picking them off, this year I ga e up after I saw how outnumbered I was.  I started handling it with a pair of scissors, but there's soooooo many and even if I spend an hour "clearing" the plants, the next day there's a billion new rolls again.  And the moths are all over the plants all day long laying the eggs.  I have a lot of canna and this is what they all look like now.  Plus one of my welcome tenants which is why I won't nuke everything.

Wow!, didn't realize these things essentially obliterate Cannas.  There's also a species of Skipper ( small butterfly ) there in East TX that also lays it's eggs on them too.  A Predatory stink bug that may be common there supposedly preys on the caterpillars of both.  Doesn't harm the plants like most other stink bugs can.
https://www.inaturalist.org/taxa/119873-Euthyrhynchus-floridanus

[amh]

Bacillus thuringiensis kurstaki, sold as BT, will help control caterpillars and is safe for vertebrates. Just dont apply to plants that are intended to be larval host

Bacillus thuringiensis israelensis can be used to help control mosquitos.

[Keys6505]

10 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

There's also a species of Skipper ( small butterfly ) there in East TX that also lays it's eggs on them too

You are absolutely correct, it looks like these are the culprit.  I googled a skipper butterfly and these are the little jerks I see bouncing off the canna all day long.

 

9 hours ago, amh said:

Bacillus thuringiensis kurstaki, sold as BT, will help control caterpillars and is safe for vertebrates. Just dont apply to plants that are intended to be larval hos

Perfect!  I'm going to go grab some today.  Thank you!

[Dartolution]

OMG @keys6505 that is terrible! We have them here, but not until later in the season. 

I agree with BT spray - it is safe and does the job well. 

Spinosad works extremely well and quickly too and is very safe to use, but I cannot recall its toxicity to Amphibians off the top of my head. 

I use Spinosad, and Neem on a 2 week rotating schedule during the growing season, and my tiny yard is chock-full of frogs, lizards, bees, toads, and sometimes the occasional turtle and rabbit. 

The tree frogs, and toads hop around all over the patio, under the cannas, and around the waterfall. 

They do not appear to be harmed from either of these. 

I know i have at least 4 species of frog in the yard. 

[Darold Petty]

19 minutes ago, Dartolution said:

 

I use Spinosad, and Neem on a 2 week rotating schedule during the growing season, and my tiny yard is chock-full of frogs, lizards, bees, toads, and sometimes the occasional turtle and rabbit. 

The tree frogs, and toads hop around all over the patio, under the cannas, and around the waterfall. 

They do not appear to be harmed from either of these. 

I know i have at least 4 species of frog in the yard. 

Congratulations, I envy the richness of the animal life in your garden. 

Here in the big concrete city I get only mice, rats, opposum, and raccoons.  Plenty of birds, including full time resident Anna's hummingbird,  Calypte anna.    

[Dartolution]

12 hours ago, Darold Petty said:

Congratulations, I envy the richness of the animal life in your garden. 

Here in the big concrete city I get only mice, rats, opposum, and raccoons.  Plenty of birds, including full time resident Anna's hummingbird,  Calypte anna.    

@Darold Petty We get mice, rats, opossums, raccoons, and birds as well. Our resident hummer are ruby throated's, and we occasionally have the stray Rufous or two pop in. 

[Looking Glass]

On 5/29/2021 at 9:24 PM, Keys6505 said:

If I have to pick them off one by one I think I'm already too far gone.  Last year it tried picking them off, this year I ga e up after I saw how outnumbered I was.  I started handling it with a pair of scissors, but there's soooooo many and even if I spend an hour "clearing" the plants, the next day there's a billion new rolls again.  And the moths are all over the plants all day long laying the eggs.  I have a lot of canna and this is what they all look like now.  Plus one of my welcome tenants which is why I won't nuke everything.

 

 

Good god...  I was thinking, “why not just pluck them off when they 1st roll a leaf, I do it all the time”.   I get a kind of these on bottle and spindle palms, and they get about half a leaflet before I notice cut them out of their lair.   
 

Now I see you need to implore some sort of nuclear option.   I’d cut them to the ground, carefully rake up (perhaps blowtorch after) everything, then preventatively spray whatever you decide on, as they come back up.  I’d probably create a granular perimeter around them too.  Looks like it’s going to be a labor of love in your area.  That’s a lot of different assailants to deal with.  

Cute frog BTW...   I bet a bunch of sun tolerant bromeliads would give him some options during any renovations.  

[Silas_Sancona]

18 hours ago, Dartolution said:

@Darold Petty We get mice, rats, opossums, raccoons, and birds as well. Our resident hummer are ruby throated's, and we occasionally have the stray Rufous or two pop in. 

If you're occasionally seeing Rufous Hummingbirds -and supplement flowering stuff for Hummingbirds w/ a feeder or two-  Keep a look out for either of the following sp. Both have been sighted w/ decent regularity along the Gulf Coast, possibly further inland as well.  2nd species might be less common, but is often mistaken for Ruby Throats ( which manage to show up in California from time to time. ) A few other, more exotic sp. from S. TX and nearby Mexico sometimes make appearences in your part of the southeast also.

https://www.inaturalist.org/taxa/6433-Archilochus-alexandri

https://www.inaturalist.org/taxa/6317-Calypte-anna

[Dartolution]

@Silas_Sancona I have 2 feeders back there, plus an absolute ton of plant material thats catered to the hummingbirds and bees. Rufous do show up but they aren't frequent, and are much smaller than our resident ruby throated hummers. 

I have never seen the black-chinned, or annas here. Anna's are often mistaken for Ruby Throated hummingbirds - they do look quite similar. 

[amh]

The black-chinned hummingbirds are very plentiful in my area and the most interactive of the local species.

[Silas_Sancona]

36 minutes ago, amh said:

The black-chinned hummingbirds are very plentiful in my area and the most interactive of the local species.

We have both,  plus another common blue/purple - throated species ( Costa's ), and another red-throated sp, ( Allen's ) which sometimes strays into the desert from California some years. Rufous come and go, depending on the season.  Anna's is the more people tolerant, while Costa's and Black Chinned are typically more shy and quick to zip off when encountered, unless well accustomed to feeders/ nosy humans.
A couple of the more exotic species more commonly seen in S. AZ. have been showing up around the valley, and out west in central/ S. Cal. in recent years.