Heat-Tolerant Conifer Recommendations

[ahosey01]

In a separate thread I posted about recently purchasing two Pinus monophylla to try in my mid-elevation Sonoran desert setting (summer highs average 103, up to 110-113 for a few days, winter lows average 30-40 nights at or just below freezing, a few nights down to 20-25, highs around 60 for a couple months).

This is part of a larger plan to plant out a conifer garden in one section of the yard.  I am also planting Cupressus arizonica and Pinus halepensis.  I am aware of the obvious ones like Pinus eldarica and Pinus pinea, as well as Italian cypress.  One forum user mentioned Digger Pine, which I don't think is a bad idea.

Can anyone else recommend any conifers that will tolerate the heat, lack of humidity and cold(ish) winters?  This combination of factors precludes me from potential contenders like Pinus canariensis, because it's just too cold, Pinus ponderosa because it's too hot, and Pinus palustris because it's too dry.

Let me know!  Thanks!

Edited September 2, 2020 by ahosey01

[amh]

You might consider the infamous Juniperus ashei, which grows from Mexico to Missouri.

Edited September 2, 2020 by amh

[Xenon]

Taxodium mucronatum

Podocarpus macrophyllus 

[palmsOrl]

Eastern red cedar (Juniperus virginiana) might work, though I am not sure how much moisture it requires.  It is certainly not native to the desert so I am sure it would need supplemental irrigation.

[amh]

27 minutes ago, palmsOrl said:

Eastern red cedar (Juniperus virginiana) might work, though I am not sure how much moisture it requires.  It is certainly not native to the desert so I am sure it would need supplemental irrigation.

There is a southern subspecies known as Juniperus virginiana var. silicicola, which is supposed to be more drought hardy. I too am sure that it would need supplemental watering.

[ahosey01]

47 minutes ago, amh said:

There is a southern subspecies known as Juniperus virginiana var. silicicola, which is supposed to be more drought hardy. I too am sure that it would need supplemental watering.

Yeah I certainly am not expecting not to have to provide supplemental water to these plants. I don’t think there’s a conifer in the world that would survive the low desert heat and also 12ish inches of precipitation per year.

[Silas_Sancona]

1 hour ago, Xenon said:

Taxodium mucronatum

Podocarpus macrophyllus 

Agree w/ Montezuma Cypress. There are at least a few around town. Fast grower, and much more drought tolerant that most might assume. If i ever end up w/ a property near a creek or with a catchment pond, would plant several of these.. Not sure about Podocarpus.. Seen a few in town but usually look like ....... once summer sets in. Do very well when placed somewhere shady though.

Might research some of the Mexican Pinus sp. such as
Pinus lawsonii
Pinus maximinoi
Pinus montezumae
Pinus oocarpa
Pinus patula
Pinus pseudostrobus **There are supposedly a group of 15 mature specimens that have done quite well in a county Park located along the CA side of the Colorado River, in a small town south of where the I-10 crosses into CA.

Would not count out Pinus pinea, Ital. Stone Pine either.. Very tough, esp. once older and stunning once they form the flat topped "crown".  Pretty fast grower also.

[ahosey01]

7 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Agree w/ Montezuma Cypress. There are at least a few around town. Fast grower, and much more drought tolerant that most might assume. If i ever end up w/ a property near a creek or with a catchment pond, would plant several of these.. Not sure about Podocarpus.. Seen a few in town but usually look like ....... once summer sets in. Do very well when placed somewhere shady though.

Might research some of the Mexican Pinus sp. such as
Pinus lawsonii
Pinus maximinoi
Pinus montezumae
Pinus oocarpa
Pinus patula
Pinus pseudostrobus **There are supposedly a group of 15 mature specimens that have done quite well in a county Park located along the CA side of the Colorado River, in a small town south of where the I-10 crosses into CA.

Would not count out Pinus pinea, Ital. Stone Pine either.. Very tough, esp. once older and stunning once they form the flat topped "crown".  Pretty fast grower also.

Yeah I’ve been thinking about one of the Taxodium species, possibly even baldcypress.

My property is on a hill, and the footprint of my house roof including garage and patio is about 2500 sq ft.  All of the water from my roof and the higher elevation part of my yard ultimately wind up in the lower elevation portion, about 10 ft below the rest of the yard and maybe 5 ft above the Hassayampa River water table.

I am going to dig a series of trenches to direct all the water from both the upper part of the yard and the roof of the house into what I’m terming a “stock tank” area on the north end of the lower part of the yard.  When we get rain, this area will be about 30ft x 30ft and could reasonably expect to receive 3000-4000 gallons of water with an inch of rain.

The soil in that part of the yard is a silty alluvium and so holds moisture very well, but also drains reasonably fast.  My thought is that with some pretty significant sulfur treatment to acidify this 30x30 area, this would be a perfect spot for one of the Taxodium species, including potentially even Baldcypress.  Even if we only get 10-15 inches of rain per year, that’s 40,000-50,000 gallons of water sitting in and soaking through a 30x30 area.  Add three or four supplemental floodings per year and now we’re talking about 65,000-70,000 gallons of water in an area about the size of a garage.  Seems like the standing-water-loving species like Taxodium would love that.  Especially considering that another 5ft down is the subsurface water from the Hassayampa River.

Edited September 3, 2020 by ahosey01

[ahosey01]

8 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Agree w/ Montezuma Cypress. There are at least a few around town. Fast grower, and much more drought tolerant that most might assume. If i ever end up w/ a property near a creek or with a catchment pond, would plant several of these.. Not sure about Podocarpus.. Seen a few in town but usually look like ....... once summer sets in. Do very well when placed somewhere shady though.

Might research some of the Mexican Pinus sp. such as
Pinus lawsonii
Pinus maximinoi
Pinus montezumae
Pinus oocarpa
Pinus patula
Pinus pseudostrobus **There are supposedly a group of 15 mature specimens that have done quite well in a county Park located along the CA side of the Colorado River, in a small town south of where the I-10 crosses into CA.

Would not count out Pinus pinea, Ital. Stone Pine either.. Very tough, esp. once older and stunning once they form the flat topped "crown".  Pretty fast grower also.

Also...  the Psuedostrobus thing is interesting... next time I go to Kofa, maybe I’ll swing out by Palo Verde and take a look for myself.  I wonder if they’re getting supplemental irrigation or if it’s just the Colorado River doing it for them.

[ahosey01]

Also wondering about American Arborvitae as well.

[Xenon]

Possibly Araucaria bidwilii and A. cunninghamia? They are the most cold hardy of the tropical adapted Araucaria. Agathis robusta? 

Edited September 3, 2020 by Xenon

[Silas_Sancona]

2 hours ago, ahosey01 said:

Also...  the Psuedostrobus thing is interesting... next time I go to Kofa, maybe I’ll swing out by Palo Verde and take a look for myself.  I wonder if they’re getting supplemental irrigation or if it’s just the Colorado River doing it for them.

Your idea about creating a stock/retention pond, and directing runoff from the house/patio.. other impervious surfaces to it is the same idea i have thought about also.

Looking on Google, Doesn't look like there's any areas in the park that would receive irrigation ( pretty barren, except for trees/ stuff lining the river actually ). Would assume the only water they get would be from tapping into the river's water table. If you make it out there, snap a few pictures.. This group of specimens has been mentioned numerous times in different articles around the web but don't recall seeing any images..

Forgot to mention another Pinus sp. you might look into.. Pinus roxburghii, aka Chir Pine.. I'd actually been trying to find a sp. i'd collected cones off back in CA years ago but couldn't remember the species. Cones look like smaller-sized Coulter Pine cones ( thick scales. Lower scales somewhat clawed ) and vaguely remember that it originated from somewhere in the Mid-East/ Asia.. While searching around, saw ASU lists it as a " Pine for Phoenix " and ironically come across what i'm pretty sure is a large P. roxburgh. in a neighborhood near the house. Today, found a few more next to a Bank Of America here in Chandler also. Cones i was able to find below them are a match for the description of the sp. and what i remember finding in the past.

[ahosey01]

10 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Your idea about creating a stock/retention pond, and directing runoff from the house/patio.. other impervious surfaces to it is the same idea i have thought about also.

Looking on Google, Doesn't look like there's any areas in the park that would receive irrigation ( pretty barren, except for trees/ stuff lining the river actually ). Would assume the only water they get would be from tapping into the river's water table. If you make it out there, snap a few pictures.. This group of specimens has been mentioned numerous times in different articles around the web but don't recall seeing any images..

Forgot to mention another Pinus sp. you might look into.. Pinus roxburghii, aka Chir Pine.. I'd actually been trying to find a sp. i'd collected cones off back in CA years ago but couldn't remember the species. Cones look like smaller-sized Coulter Pine cones ( thick scales. Lower scales somewhat clawed ) and vaguely remember that it originated from somewhere in the Mid-East/ Asia.. While searching around, saw ASU lists it as a " Pine for Phoenix " and ironically come across what i'm pretty sure is a large P. roxburgh. in a neighborhood near the house. Today, found a few more next to a Bank Of America here in Chandler also. Cones i was able to find below them are a match for the description of the sp. and what i remember finding in the past.

Where is that Bank of America located?  I'd like to take a look.

[Silas_Sancona]

27 minutes ago, ahosey01 said:

Where is that Bank of America located?  I'd like to take a look.

Corner of Chandler Blvd. and Alma School. There are 3 specimens.. 1 looks good, 2 others nearby, not so much..  Appears there were a few other pines that are dying on the same property.  The other possible P. roxburg. specimen is located on N. Longmore St. ( also here in Chandler ) One street west of where Carla Vista and N. Arrowhead Dr. meet. Looking at that tree on streetview, you can make out the thick scales on a couple cones you can see at the top of that tree. Have a few other pictures of the same tree.

[ahosey01]

Here is one for identification.  Growing wild on the side of the highway in a wash in Morristown.

Here is a photo of the whole tree.  I notice that most of the branches are formed in a weepy habit, most of the leaves are on the west side of the tree (so clearly it loves the full, blazing sun), and it's a BIG tree.  Probably 3-4ft trunk diameter at breast height and 80-90 feet tall:

The bark is interesting as well.  It is shaggy like a cypress, but has these strange rings (I'll call them belts), spaced out approximately equal distance all the way up the tree:

It's also growing directly in a wash and without supplemental irrigation.  Here is a closeup of the leaves - they almost look like Tamarix leaves, but are clearly different.  The cones are very small, as well - note the funny little curly habit of the bark on the thinner branches:

Let me know what you think.  This is a cool tree and I think the land it's on is just some old public land that nobody maintains anymore.  The soil is probably alkaline and it looks like a combination of thick clay and caliche depending on how eroded the wash is.

[ahosey01]

@Silas_Sancona is this Pinus roxburghii?

Its growing on the river bank like 1000ft from my house, so clearly cold tolerance is acceptable.

No supplemental irrigation whatsoever.  Been like that for 14 years.

[Silas_Sancona]

1 hour ago, ahosey01 said:

@Silas_Sancona is this Pinus roxburghii?

Its growing on the river bank like 1000ft from my house, so clearly cold tolerance is acceptable.

No supplemental irrigation whatsoever.  Been like that for 14 years.

Either P. roxburghii or canariensis..  though that one is a bit wide to be a Canary. Bark is reddish though.. Trunks on the specimens here i think are Roxburgs. is black, or really dark brown. Cones between the two can look similar apparently though i don't remember cones on any of the Canaries i grew up around having pronounced upside down "claws" on the Scales.

Here's a couple pics. of the possible Roxburg. specimens over by the bank.. Several Canaries across the street and the difference between the two is obvious. Going  to look over the other tree again this week.

Overall shape:


Trunk:





How the needles are held:


Biggest cone i could find looks like yours.. Most others on this specimen were much smaller and likely under developed.. but also had the clawed scales. Would add both Pine sps. have bundles of 3 needles per Fascicle.  Eldarica and Aleppo have bundles of 2 ( or occasionally 3 in Aleppo )

Edited September 8, 2020 by Silas_Sancona
edit

[ahosey01]

5 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Either P. roxburghii or canariensis..  though that one is a bit wide to be a Canary. Bark is reddish though.. Trunks on the specimens here i think are Roxburgs. is black, or really dark brown. Cones between the two can look similar apparently though i don't remember cones on any of the Canaries i grew up around having pronounced upside down "claws" on the Scales.

Here's a couple pics. of the possible Roxburg. specimens over by the bank.. Several Canaries across the street and the difference between the two is obvious. Going  to look over the other tree again this week.

Overall shape:


Trunk:





How the needles are held:


Biggest cone i could find looks like yours.. Most others on this specimen were much smaller and likely under developed.. but also had the clawed scales. Would add both Pine sps. have bundles of 3 needles per Fascicle.  Eldarica and Aleppo have bundles of 2 ( or occasionally 3 in Aleppo )

I can't be certain, but it also seems that the strange down-then-up curvature to the smaller branches appears to be an identifying characteristic for P. roxburghii as well.  I don't typically see this on P. canariensis that I can remember.

[Silas_Sancona]

1 hour ago, ahosey01 said:

I can't be certain, but it also seems that the strange down-then-up curvature to the smaller branches appears to be an identifying characteristic for P. roxburghii as well.  I don't typically see this on P. canariensis that I can remember.

Yea, don't remember seeing the same characteristic on Canaries either..  Went through all the other potential sp. over on Conifers.org and roxburghii was the only possible match to the specimens i'd located.. yet some of the pictures of cones from that sp. look different. Interesting..

[ahosey01]

So I've got P. monophylla already (2 specimens) and am looking for 3-4 more at least.  I want it to be unique at some level - so I'm thinking P. pinea and P. roxburghii so far.  Would also like to find P. sabiniana because I think it would work.  P. psuedostrobus is interesting to, but when I street view Palo Verde park, the only big conifer-like trees that I think I see are Tamarix aphylla.

Gotta figure out where the hell to buy all of these!  Lol!  The nurseries around here only sell P. eldarica and P. halepensis.

[Silas_Sancona]

Here's the other specimen, over by arrowhead park..  99.999999....... % sure it is P. roxburghii. Pictures aren't the greatest due to how thick the smoke is today, but visual clues are more than obvious.. Wish some of the biggest / best looking cones weren't at the top of the tree, lol. Found a few more in another park also. Those trees look a bit different in profile but was able to collect a freshly opened cone off one of them.. Clearly P. roxurgh.

Arrowhead Park area specimen:








Cone from the specimen at another park w/ the old  biggest cone off one of the specimens at the Bank.  Cones are pretty solid matches for all 3 specimens, as are the needles in bundles of 3.

[ahosey01]

On 9/11/2020 at 1:51 PM, Silas_Sancona said:

Here's the other specimen, over by arrowhead park..  99.999999....... % sure it is P. roxburghii. Pictures aren't the greatest due to how thick the smoke is today, but visual clues are more than obvious.. Wish some of the biggest / best looking cones weren't at the top of the tree, lol. Found a few more in another park also. Those trees look a bit different in profile but was able to collect a freshly opened cone off one of them.. Clearly P. roxurgh.

Arrowhead Park area specimen:








Cone from the specimen at another park w/ the old  biggest cone off one of the specimens at the Bank.  Cones are pretty solid matches for all 3 specimens, as are the needles in bundles of 3.

The bark looks like the one in the river by my house, as well.  Mostly black and thick, but some red near the base.  I think I also see that drooping-and-swooping branch structure in your photo.

Heres what I did yesterday:

All the cuttings on the left are from the P. roxburghii living unassisted in the river.  The ones on the right are from a Eucalyptus (I’m terrible with Euc IDs) in the same area.  Here’s a photo from my backyard across the highway to the area where the pine (circled in red) and the Eucalyptus (circled in blue) are growing:

I took 8 cuttings off each, dipped them in root hormone and stuck them in some sandy, mulchy, wet potting soil.  We’ll see what happens.

Also - interesting note - my next door neighbor is a longtime resident of Wickenburg.  He was telling me today that the ranch these were planted on has not been operational since 1995ish.  These things have all gone 25 years with no supplemental water.

Edited September 13, 2020 by ahosey01

[Silas_Sancona]

1 hour ago, ahosey01 said:

The bark looks like the one in the river by my house, as well.  Mostly black and thick, but some red near the base.  I think I also see that drooping-and-swooping branch structure in your photo.

Heres what I did yesterday:

All the cuttings on the left are from the P. roxburghii living unassisted in the river.  The ones on the right are from a Eucalyptus (I’m terrible with Euc IDs) in the same area.  Here’s a photo from my backyard across the highway to the area where the pine (circled in red) and the Eucalyptus (circled in blue) are growing:

I took 8 cuttings off each, dipped them in root hormone and stuck them in some sandy, mulchy, wet potting soil.  We’ll see what happens.

Also - interesting note - my next door neighbor is a longtime resident of Wickenburg.  He was telling me today that the ranch these were planted on has not been operational since 1995ish.  These things have all gone 25 years with no supplemental water.

That's quite some time on their own for sure.. Wonder if they're tapping the water table?  Most Eucs. are tough and will survive neglect pretty well as it is..

Good luck w/ the cuttings.. Have heard Eucs. can be somewhat challenging. Pines are kind of a mixed bag from what i have read.. Canaries are easy, esp. when started from new tip growth.. Might be the same w/ other sp as well. Not experienced enough to say for sure though..  You might consider constructing a simple wood frame that you can wrap in heavy gauge plastic to help keep ambient moisture/ temperatures up around them as they root. Obviously keep them out of the sun as well..

On a side note, was going through some boxes Friday and found a random bag of seed that contained, among other stuff,  seed i'd collected off both Digger and Coulter pines back in CA.. If my memory is right, have had the seed for -at least- 10 years.. Yucca seed, collected along I 40 in eastern New Mexico, in the same baggie might be 23yrs old.. anyway, Cracked a few of both open and the embryos look good. Most i pulled out to try sank in water, so...  Likely too old/ will damp off before germinating  but Coulter pine seed supposedly has a long shelf life. Digger pine seed can remain viable for at least 5-6 years from what info. i could find on the subject.. so, we'll see what happens.. Never hurts to try.

[ahosey01]

7 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

That's quite some time on their own for sure.. Wonder if they're tapping the water table?  Most Eucs. are tough and will survive neglect pretty well as it is..

Good luck w/ the cuttings.. Have heard Eucs. can be somewhat challenging. Pines are kind of a mixed bag from what i have read.. Canaries are easy, esp. when started from new tip growth.. Might be the same w/ other sp as well. Not experienced enough to say for sure though..  You might consider constructing a simple wood frame that you can wrap in heavy gauge plastic to help keep ambient moisture/ temperatures up around them as they root. Obviously keep them out of the sun as well..

On a side note, was going through some boxes Friday and found a random bag of seed that contained, among other stuff,  seed i'd collected off both Digger and Coulter pines back in CA.. If my memory is right, have had the seed for -at least- 10 years.. Yucca seed, collected along I 40 in eastern New Mexico, in the same baggie might be 23yrs old.. anyway, Cracked a few of both open and the embryos look good. Most i pulled out to try sank in water, so...  Likely too old/ will damp off before germinating  but Coulter pine seed supposedly has a long shelf life. Digger pine seed can remain viable for at least 5-6 years from what info. i could find on the subject.. so, we'll see what happens.. Never hurts to try.

If you get either or both of them to sprout, I’ll buy one of each off you. Let me know.

I think the digger pine is especially promising around here.

Edited September 13, 2020 by ahosey01

[Silas_Sancona]

1 hour ago, ahosey01 said:

If you get either or both of them to sprout, I’ll buy one of each off you. Let me know.

I think the digger pine is especially promising around here.

Will do.. Might not know if they'll pop until December -at the earliest- though.

While P. sabiniana would likely handle the heat the best, i'd bet coulteri would do well also. Certainly tolerates a lot of cold. The picture below, if it loads, is of a huge specimen located in Bayard New Mexico. Apparently is trying to naturalize in the area where this specimen is located. *** All Photo Credits to Conifers.org.***


At least on the 2012 update of Plant Maps, the area where this specimen is listed as Zone 8.. Likely 8A and is real close to 7B. If Wickenburg is too hot, i'd bet the foothills just north of you/  the valley in general  ( Prescott / Chino Valley, etc )  would be good places to trial it if there aren't already specimens planted in parks, etc up there.  Should mention too that the seeds of both are edible ( and as good/ better than Pinyon Nuts )

An interesting side note, apparently P. coulteri is the only species in it's section which shares Chloroplast haplotype w/ P. arizonica from the Sierra Madre in Mexico, and may have arose after 2 ..possibly extinct.. species/ sub species related to P. ponderosa crossed.  P. coulteri, saniniana, torreyana, and P. jeffreyi are all closely related and lumped into their own sub-section of Ponderosae.

[ahosey01]

On 9/3/2020 at 10:15 AM, Xenon said:

Possibly Araucaria bidwilii and A. cunninghamia? They are the most cold hardy of the tropical adapted Araucaria. Agathis robusta? 

Any idea where to find Agathis robusta?

[Silas_Sancona]

1 hour ago, ahosey01 said:

Any idea where to find Agathis robusta?

That's going to be a tough one... Been looking for seedlings for a few years myself. Occasionally see seed for sale but honestly would be skeptical of the source.. Seed of Agathis and Araucaria supposedly have a very short lifespan after being shed/ collected. If you do come across seedlings for sale, they'll likely be a bit expensive. 

One i almost bought at a plant sale several years ago was $90.00 for a seedling in a 2gal.

Edited September 24, 2020 by Silas_Sancona
edit

[ahosey01]

39 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

That's going to be a tough one... Been looking for seedlings for a few years myself. Occasionally see seed for sale but honestly would be skeptical of the source.. Seed of Agathis and Araucaria supposedly have a very short lifespan after being shed/ collected. If you do come across seedlings for sale, they'll likely be a bit expensive. 

One i almost bought at a plant sale several years ago was $90.00 for a seedling in a 2gal.

Any experience with Nageia nagi?

[Chester B]

From everything I've read you can't propagate Eucalyptus from cuttings.  Seeds are pretty easy to get a hold of and due to their size if you order some you'll have more than you'll ever need.

[Silas_Sancona]

50 minutes ago, ahosey01 said:

Any experience with Nageia nagi?

Grown it but pretty sure it was one of the first things that the heat killed when i first moved here.. You may have better luck growing it however since you have more space, can provide a better micro-climate in your yard. Beautiful tree and should be easier to track down than Agathis.