Fruiting Orinoco's

[ghar41]

This dwarf Orinoco is setting fruit very early this year.  I'll update this post from time to time to show those interested the method I use to ripen dwarf bananas here in temperate central California.  These techniques were given to me by Jeff in Modesto and have produced delicious bananas the last three years in a row.

[ghar41]

Picture

[ghar41]

Last years...

[ghar41]

The flowers occupying the first 5 - 15 rows are female.

As the rachis of the inflorescence continue to elongate, sterile flowers with abortive male and female parts appear, followed by normal staminate ones with abortive ovaries. The two latter flower types eventually drop in most edible bananas. Cut these off as soon as soon as they appear.

[ghar41]

The object here is to allow the ovaries containing the first (female) flowers grow to grow rapidly, developing parthenocarpically (without pollination) into clusters of fruits, called hands.

This tree is only holding 3 hands of fruit.  Due to the buds early arrival, the plant has only grown two large oblong or elliptic leaves, these being the main source of photosynthesis.  The smaller "pan" leaves have large, thick petioles, that run through the leaf ,therefor leaving much less photosynthetic area.

[osideterry]

I'm hanging on every word...

(I have 5 bananas that could fruit this year)

[ghar41]

This photo should be appearing with the 4th post.  Im not sure why theyre not coming up.

[osideterry]

I saw it in post 4 the first time. You say they are delish? I have one Dwarf Orinoco, 2 Manzanos, a Rajapuri and an Ice Cream. The Orinoco and Rajapuri are slow, the Manzanos and Ice Cream fast. Not sure I'll see fruit by fall. Their overall heights vary from 5ft to 7ft now. They were all planted as 5 gallons a year ago this month.

[ghar41]

(osideterry @ May 17 2007,19:56)

QUOTE

I'm hanging on every word...

(I have 5 bananas that could fruit this year)

Cool!     

But now the hanging lasts for a few months..... to give the fruit time to develop.  Ideally, growers want the bud to appear before July 1 and for it to come down around Oct 1.  These dates work here in Central Ca. anyway.  I have had success on both sides of these dates though.  Since these are the earliest fruit I've had, I may be posting the ripening process as early as Sept. 1.

After the bud and fruit appear, water it regularly or the fruit will suffer.  Full sun and heat are also key.

[ghar41]

(osideterry @ May 17 2007,21:54)

QUOTE

You say they are delish?

This is the part that keeps me growing these plants because otherwise they are really high maintenance (the psedotrunk that produces the fruit dies and will need removal, the "pups" that emerge from around it will be successive fruiting psedotrunks).

The taste of the ice cream, Orinoco, and Goldfinger varieties that have ripened for me are, in my opinion,  far superior to the Cavendish bananas in the supermarket.  They are slightly less creamy, but more fruity and sticky and like fine wines have hints of "other fruit" tastes.  Orinocos often give me just a hint of a peach flavor.

[osideterry]

When I think supermarket banana, I think of the large, yellow Chiquita type. I've read that one is a Musa acuminata "Williams". I'm not sure I've had a Dwarf Cavendish, unless that is what the 6" green bananas found at grocers is. I've tasted ripe small bananas right off the tree like yours, but the owner wasn't aware what type it was. It had a more citric tang to it, a very nice change from the soft mellow quality of the common Chiquita.

I'm pretty excited about comparing my bananas in a side-by-side tasting if possible.

[Carlo Morici]

(osideterry @ May 21 2007,02:39)

QUOTE

I'm pretty excited about comparing my bananas in a side-by-side tasting if possible.

He, he...   there is a Murphy's Rule: unless you plant a large banana plantation, each of your banana cultivars will ripen at a different time in your garden.

It can only be solved by trading some of your bananas with neighbours who will give you other cvs in exchange.

Does the Dwarf Orinoco taste like the regular Orinoco?

Carlo, Tenerife

[ghar41]

(osideterry @ May 20 2007,21:39)

QUOTE

When I think supermarket banana, I think of the large, yellow Chiquita type. I've read that one is a Musa acuminata "Williams". I'm not sure I've had a Dwarf Cavendish, unless that is what the 6" green bananas found at grocers is.

Apparently, Musa acuminata "Williams" is synonymous to Giant Cavendish.  That is the supermarket banana (large fruit) I'm referring to.

The information I have says that it originated from a Dwarf Cavendish from Queensland, Australia.

I'm guessing "Chaquita" is a brand name.  (?)

Jeff in Modesto any info you can provide here is appreciated.

[ghar41]

(Carlo Morici @ May 21 2007,08:06)

QUOTE

Does the Dwarf Orinoco taste like the regular Orinoco?

Carlo, Tenerife

The term "Dwarf" refers to the height of the pseudostem.  Generally less than 10ft.  Regular types up to 25ft.

I havent noticed a difference in the fruits of Dwarfs vs. Talls.  Jeff in Modesto, can you elaborate?

[osideterry]

Chaquita is to bananas what Dole is to pineapples.

I have a Manzano and a Dwarf Manzano. The non-dwarf is a skinny skyrocket. It will need serious bracing when it fruits. I'm wondering if they will taste the same? I knew hoping the'd all fruit silumtaneously was a long shot.

[ghar41]

(ghar41 @ May 21 2007,11:53)

QUOTE

[

Apparently, Musa acuminata "Williams" is synonymous to Giant Cavendish.  That is the supermarket banana (large fruit) I'm referring to.

The information I have says that it originated from a Dwarf Cavendish from Queensland, Australia.

Ok...California Rare Fruit Growers Assoc. info that I have hard copies of...I found online....

http://www.crfg.org/pubs/ff/banana.html

These folks really know their stuff....

[osideterry]

Nice informative document there.  It didn't have info on my Rajapuri though. My own research has it sounding similar to Orinoco regarding coldhardiness and length of wait for fruit. I think it might also be hybrid, half M. acuminata and half something else... maybe M. paradisio.

[ghar41]

I've never grown Rajapuri.  I have read that it can fruit in a similar time frame but needs full, hot sun wheras Orinoco's can fruit in morning sun or even partial sun.  ...just something I read, not CRFG info.

At my place, Orinoco and Ice Cream have fruited from a position next to an East facing wall, morning sun only.  I have them growing in hot sun areas, they,ve just never fruited for me out there.  Please note in a previous post that I errantly listed full sun as "key" to fruit, but this has not been the case for me.  

A couple of years ago a Goldfinger did set fruit out in the middle of my yard in full, hot sun.

[osideterry]

My bananas are planted on a slight slope, southfacing with a fence behind them. Sun all day. My area is cooler than yours, so I think they will enjoy every moment of heat they get. Our average high temp during the summer is only 81F.

You are right about the Rajapuri... it's a real slug for me. It will probably get pulled and a palm planted in it's place.

[Jeff in St Pete]

I found that Raja Puri is very very fast growing!  I once planted a 2.5 foot corm (at my house in Tampa) and less than 7 months later, it was fruiting.  It produced a large bunch of very delicious tasting fruit.  Raja Puri is a very stout plant with a thick pseudostem and very wide leaves.  At one time I had close to 40 different varieties and Raja Puri was one of my favorites.  I'm surprised to hear that it is slow growing for some people.

[ghar41]

(Jeff in Costa Rica @ May 25 2007,18:02)

QUOTE

I found that Raja Puri is very very fast growing!  I once planted a 2.5 foot corm (at my house in Tampa) I'm surprised to hear that it is slow growing for some people.

Actually it should grow faster for you than osideterry as Tampa FL is generally much hotter than Oceanside CA.

Apparently, Rajapuri bananas love hot sun and heat.  

[ghar41]

Well, here we are at about mid summer and the bananas have really swollen.  I may bring these down sometime in August to begin the ripening process.  This is a very early set as I am usually shooting for October 1st.  It's also a very small group as it only has three hands.

[ghar41]

Beautiful fruit.

[Walt]

I have a master gardener friend here in Lake Placid, Florida, that grows about 18 different varieties of bananas. He keeps me in supply all the time, because he and his wife could never eat all of them.

He just recently gave me three large hands from three different plants. My favorite tasting one is missi luki, followed by dwarf namwah.

I think I could eat bananas everyday, that's how much I like them.

I have a blue java that set fruit about six weeks ago and I'm hoping to harvest them by summer's end.

Below is a photo of one of my buddy's dwarf cavendish plants that he recently harvested. It had 14 hands on the bunch, comprising 244 bananas.

[Walt]

I copied the below from another website, a testament to bananas:

A professor at CCNY for a physiological psych class told his class about bananas.  

Never, put your banana in the refrigerator!!!  

Bananas contain three natural sugars - sucrose, fructose and glucose combined with fiber. A banana gives an instant, sustained and substantial boost of energy.  

Research has proven that just two bananas provide enough energy for a strenuous 90-minute workout. No wonder the banana is the number one fruit with the world's leading athletes.  

Depression: According to a recent survey undertaken by MIND amongst people suffering from depression, many felt much better after eating a banana. This is because bananas contain tryptophan, a type of protein that the body converts into serotonin, known to make you relax, improve your mood and generally make you feel happier.  

PMS: Forget the pills - eat a banana. The vitamin B6 it contains regulates blood glucose levels, which can affect your mood.  

Anemia: High in iron

Blood Pressure: This unique tropical fruit is extremely high in potassium yet low in salt, making it perfect to beat blood pressure. US Food and Drug Administration has just allowed the banana industry to make official claims for the fruit's ability to reduce the risk of blood pressure and stroke.  

Brain Power:  Research has shown that the potassium-packed fruit can assist learning by making pupils more alert.  

Constipation: High in fiber, including bananas in the diet can help restore normal bowel action, helping to overcome the problem without resorting to laxatives.  

Hangovers: One of the quickest ways of curing a hangover is to make a banana milkshake, sweetened with honey. The banana calms the stomach and, with the help of the honey, builds up depleted blood sugar levels, while the milk soothes and re-hydrates your system.  

Heartburn: Bananas have a natural antacid effect in the body, so if you suffer from heartburn, try eating a banana for soothing relief.  

Mosquito bites: Before reaching for the insect bite cream, try rubbing the affected area with the inside of a banana skin. Many people find it amazingly successful at reducing swelling and irritation.  

Nerves: Bananas are high in B vitamins that help calm the nervous system.  

Ulcers: The banana is used as the dietary food against intestinal disorders because of its soft texture and smoothness. It is the only raw fruit that can be eaten without distress in over-chronicler cases It also neutralizes over-acidity and reduces irritation by coating the lining of the stomach.  

Seasonal Affective Disorder (SAD): Bananas can help SAD sufferers because they contain the natural mood enhancer tryptophan.  

Smoking &Tobacco Use: Bananas can also help people trying to give up smoking. The B6, B12 they contain, as well as the potassium and magnesium found in them, help the body recover from the effects of nicotine withdrawal.  

Stress: Potassium is a vital mineral, which helps normalize the heartbeat, sends oxygen to the brain and regulates your body's water balance. When we are stressed, our metabolic rate rises, thereby reducing our potassium levels.  

Warts: Those keen on natural alternatives swear that if you want to kill off a wart, take a piece of banana skin and place it on the wart, with the yellow side out. Carefully hold the skin in place with a plaster or surgical tape!  

Want a quick shine on our shoes?? Take the INSIDE of the banana skin, and rub directly on the shoe...polish with dry cloth. Amazing fruit !!!

[iwan]

(ghar41 @ Jul. 18 2007,12:50)

QUOTE

Beautiful fruit.

Great show Glenn, especially considering the winter we had.

[ghar41]

Ok...the fruit has swollen and here it is the beginning of October so with the cool down its time to harvest.

[ghar41]

I am trying a new approach, cutting a hand at a time so I dont have too many at once.  I put this in a plastic garbage bag on Sunday with a half sliced apple.  Not sure how or why, but a fragrant gas is produced...supposedly it helps aid in the ripening process.  These are already starting to ripen.  This will continue for many days.  

DONT TRY TO EAT UNTIL THE SMALL STEM THAT HOLDS THE FRUIT TURNS COMPLETELY BROWN OR BLACK.  OTHERWISE YOU WILL BE BITING INTO A DRY, PITHY, FLAVORLESS WASTE.

[Matt in SD]

I missed this post the first time around.  Pretty impressive getting fruit in Central Cali.

I'm growing about 20 varieties here in San Diego and have figured out a few key issues for growing.  From what I've seen, the single most critical issue for getting bananas to grow FAST is to loosen a large area of soil around them when planting.  I think the roots are unable to penetrate hard soil, so if you have hard soil, whatever hole you dig is basically like having the banana in a pot that size.  If you dig a hole about 3 feet in diameter and 2 feet deep when planting, I've found that in my climate (coastal San Diego) pretty much all varieties will go from dinky little pups to fruiting in 9-15 months.  The other main factors are water (obviously), and sun.  No water, no growth.  Full sun will give way faster growth than filtered light or shade.

Another thing I've heard a lot of people worry about that really is not much of an issue is when they set fruit near the end of summer.  We've overwintered tons of bananas.  They don't do much over winter, but plump up and ripen in spring.  This may not be so true in areas where you get real freezes, but otherwise it's fine.

Up till this year I always removed the fruit when it was still green and would ripen either just letting it sit out or in bags with apples.  This year though, we had so many plants with fruit that we didn't cut them down as quickly and they started ripening on the plants.  So far the fruit has been better in every case where we let the fruit stay on until a few bananas start to turn yellow.

The advice above about not eating until the stem turns black is true for some varieties but not all.  There are some varieties where the fruit is actually pretty good when it gets soft but the skin is still green.  In any case there is usually enough fruit to experiment and see what stage has the best flavor.

I've had a real hard time deciding which variety is best.  There has been a lot of variability in the fruit quality on the same variety from one batch to the next.  Manzano is always good.  Dwarf Namwah was OK the first time, but we just harvested a huge bunch that was excellent.  Ice Cream was horrible the first time we got fruit, but the second time was maybe the best we've had on any variety.  Goldfinger is also real good, as is Mona Lisa. Goldfinger and Mona Lisa are also probably the fastest to fruit and the fruit matures way faster than most other varieties.  Ice Cream, Brazillian, Orinoco, and the Iholena's (white and red) are the slowest to fruit for me.  Typically the tall skinny varieties take way longer to fruit than the other types.  The biggest problem with all these generalizations though, is that I think mixups are very common, I wouldn't be surprised if several of mine are not what we bought them as.  

And for anyone skeptical about the fruit really being different than your typical grocery store variety... My 1 year old son is obsessed with bananas.  He's eaten 7 bananas in about 15 minutes before off of our plants.  We ran out of bananas a few months ago so my wife bought some bananas from the store for him.  He spit them out.

Just my random thoughts after growing bananas sort of obsessively for 4 years or so.  We've got about 15 plants with fruit right now.   Pretty good for an 8,000 square foot lot (especially since I'm more into palms than bananas).  

Matt

Here's a Dwarf Namwah (recently pruned) with a pretty recent fruit set.  There's a pair of White Iholenas in the background.

[BS Man about Palms]

So Matt, the banana trunks (or whatevers left) would they be good at improving the soil as they die?  Or not so much?

[ghar41]

Hey Matt,

Very cool to hear banana news from San Diego!  Your climate is really suited much better for them as evidenced y your ability to overwinter them.  Here, the Orinoco's, Ice Cream, and Goldfingers that Ive grown will start to rot by Dec or Jan.  Phoenix Dactylifera grows really well here also but the dates (fruit) do the same thing in our cold , wet, foggy winters.

Allowing the stems to turn dark before eating is necesssary for the Orinoco's in this thread.  Others riipen differently, as you said, and some will be over ripe if you wait this long.

Always great to hear from CA's real banana belt.  Your list of varieties is impressive.

[Matt in SD]

Bill,

Banana makes pretty good compost.  Their mostly water though.  Worms really get into them and assimilate them into the soil pretty quickly.  We have enough though that I probably take about 1/2 or more to the dump.  Not enough room in the compost pile.

And Ghar, I'm glad you are having success there and Robert (Iwan) is reading this thread.  He bought a bunch of bananas from me and I was a bit skeptical about how well they'd do in colder areas.

Matt

[osideterry]

Thanks for the update Glenn.

My Brazilian (bought as "Dwarf Apple") decided to fruit August 1. Based on this thread I just cut the end off, probably a month later than needed. It has 6-7 hands of pretty small bananas, maybe 4" long. They are angular and haven't fattened up yet.

My Dwarf Orinoco just flowered this week. It looks like I'll need a winter without a real freeze in order to eat any of these.

[osideterry]

Here's a photo of my Orinoco that decided October was a good time to set fruit.

[osideterry]

After cutting the flower off, here is the Brazilian. The fruit is so lightweight it has pulled itself almost horizontal. Is this bad?

[fastfeat]

Glad to see success in the Central Valley. Interesting about the trimming of the flower spike. This may be a helpful tip for anyone growing bananas where cold weather stops fruit development.

I had a 'Dwarf Cavendish' in Bellflower, CA for many years that fruited regularly, but I rarely got many usable ones. It flowered in late summer, and fruit would just barely make it to ripening size before cool weather stopped ripening. I remember having three 70lb/30kilo stalks ripening in my living room one winter. Unfortunately, never got as many good ones as I had hoped for.

[ghar41]

Well the time has come for these tasty bananas.  This years were beefy and did not disappoint.  Very fruity and flavorful.

Hope there are others that will try bananas in marginal climates.  They really are pretty easy.

[ghar41]

Mmmm

[osideterry]

Glenn - So to recap, from setting fruit (May 15) to eating fruit (October 27) is about 4.5 months. Is that the normal time frame for Orinoco? My Orinoco, as of right now, looks just like yours did in post 1. If I get lucky and dodge a serious freeze, could mine ripen next year?

My Brazilian, which set fruit in August, looks stalled to me. It looks months away from ripening as well.

[ghar41]

(osideterry @ Oct. 28 2007,15:20)

QUOTE

Glenn - So to recap, from setting fruit (May 15) to eating fruit (October 27) is about 4.5 months. Is that the normal time frame for Orinoco? My Orinoco, as of right now, looks just like yours did in post 1. If I get lucky and dodge a serious freeze, could mine ripen next year?

My Brazilian, which set fruit in August, looks stalled to me. It looks months away from ripening as well.

Hi,

Actually, as I said in previous posts, May 15 was early.  Usually we are looking for a flower stalk to appear by June 1.  I usually take them down by Oct 1st.  These swelled extra large and were beefy for small bananas.

Now, you say yours still looks like post 1?  Does that mean the fruits did NOt swell at all?  Remember, I dont ripen these on the tree...see posts for ripening using the bag method.