Which Musa sp. to choose?

[Kostas]

Hello

Last week we had a PRA with Basilios and he gave me a couple Ensete ventricosum he had surplus. Well,i knew i liked Ensete ventricosum but in the few days i own them i have trully fallen in love with them Their speed of growth and the intense colors they took with exposure to full noon sun just make me every day and there is always new growth to see every day! So,wanting to grow a Musa too that has edible fruits,i had a look at most of Musa species yesterday and ended up deciding that i like Musa peekelii,Musa acuminata and Musa sikkimensis the best. So i have a few questions for any banana experts here:

If i grow both Musa peekelii and M. acuminata or M. sikkimensis,would the seeds produced have any chance of giving birth o hybrids? I ask because they belong to a different grouping within the Musa genus,the first species being an Australimusa and the latter 2 Eumusa(or Musa).

Will Musa peekelii thrive in Pyrgos and withstand 1C or 0C minimums without damage? These are the minimums i get mostly every year and every a few years a -1C or -2C happens and every 20years a -3,6C record exists so at least the underground part should also survive the 1 night extreem minimum.

Same question for Musa acuminata.I am interested about the pure,seeded species and not in any of the artificial varieties.

Which one produces the best tasting and biggest fruits?

Which one would YOU choose if you had my lows?

Thank you very much in advance!

[gyuseppe]

kostas these muse are good for Southern Europe,musa balbisiana very resistant to frost,musa velutina,musella lasiocarpa,

you do not eat bananas from these plants , but very beautiful

flowers and fruits

[Kostas]

Thank you Giuseppe for your suggestions!

Actually,Musa balbisiana and Musa velutina produce edible fruits so if you have them,you can eat them They are supposed to be delicious but full of seeds. Both these species are beautyfull but i would like to grow one of the huge and more impressive edible fruit Musa species,thats why i chose the above species i ask about

[aussiearoids]

Kostas , there is no [or very little ] edible flesh in Musa velutina , but it is tiny and will easily flower in a pot. There are countless cultivars of Musa acuminata as it covers most of the edible types . You would not be able to grow very many in your climate.

[bahia]

To get good bananas on Musa acuminata, at your latitude you will probably need to overwinter the fruit to get them ripe enough to eat the following spring, which requires that your winters be mild enough for freezing temperatures not to damage the unripe fruit. It can be done in a favorable microclimate here at 37N latitude in the San Francisco Bay Area, but usually only with careful siting of the plant to shelter from wind, frost, etc and provide extra heat by planting next to concrete paving or a south facing double story masonry wall. When I plant Musa species locally, I generally use them for the aesthetics rather than trying for fruit, as we just don't get enough summer heat to really make them worthwhile. I'd highly recommend the Musella lasiocarpa has a very ornamental dwarf banana with beautiful flowers in the second year. Musa basjoo is also one of the easiest/fastest growing species, but not grown for edible fruit. M. velutina can also bloom well enough here at 37N latitude in areas with hotter summers than my Berkeley/bayside location. I have clients on the other side of the bay in Atherton that have their M. velutina bloom every summer, but they also almost always get cut to the ground by frost every winter. If you get several months of 80F plus temps in summer, they will probably bloom for you as well.

I'd tend to think that the most reasonable chance to get fruiting bananas would be further south in Crete, and even there they would want some microclimate help in winter. They seem to fruit best in more inland parts of southern California where winter days can often be in the 70's/80'sF even in December/January/February.

The other thing to consider before you go crazy with bananas, is whether you really want to give the garden over to such water demanding plants, they just won't look very good nor bear good fruit if you can't keep up with the watering. If they are subject to lots of drying winds in your garden, I wouldn't recommend them at all.

[Kostas]

Thank you very much for your replys!

Michael,

I know the flesh is very little but its edible and well,from a tropical species grown in your garden

What about the wild Musa acuminata from Borneo or the Musa acuminata ssp. acuminata in hardiness? At about what tempratures do they damage?

[Kostas]

bahia,

Winter tempratures in Pyrgos dont fall below 0C every winter,only every a few winters and then its usually -1C. At what tempratures does Musa acuminata or Musa peekelii get damage at their leafs or their fruits? In Pyrgos,Musa basjoo sets mature fruit most of the years with the exception of the worst winters. They plant them in very open locations though and so they are usually very tattered but still rarely loose their leafs. I want to try something with edible fruits though,even if the flesh is very little,as long as its really sweet,i like it!

In Pyrgos,i can get 70-80F even in December in good years,then 3 mostly cool months follow and here we go again on middle March/early April with above 70-80F again. On Musa basjoo,it is possible to get mature fruits even in Athens in a good microclimate(certainly not Melissia though most of the years!)

Crete is actually a commercial banana growing area and produces very sweet tasting small sized bananas,the best tasting bananas i have ever tried Unfortunately i dont find them often for sale here but when i do,i get loads!

I am certainly not going to devote my garden to banana plants but i do am going to give a little space to 1-2 Musa species and 2 Ensete ventricosum. I am mostly a palm,cycad and fern fan so i could never just grow bananas(also called tall weeds ) but i like all tropical plants and want to create a mixed,jungle like garden with big canopy trees,palms towering above and below the canopy and many understory plants and epiphyts filling the space below. The bananas will be at the canopy edge or at a hole in the canopy Water is not a problem in Pyrgos as i get 1m of rain annually and the ground water is only 1-2meters below the soil surface,depending on the season. So most of the plants will be mostly self sustained in the future and only the epiphyts,ferns and bananas will probably appreciate some artificial irrigation Humidity is high too so drying winds arent common at all.

[bahia]

Kostas,

I am curious to know whether the bananas being grown in Crete are also grown in plastic covered hoop houses, similar to how they grow tomatoes there? I've only been to Crete but one time, and don't recall seeing bananas being grown outdoors in the open. It does sound like you have sufficient heat and water to possibly get some fruiting bananas, unfortunately I can't offer any specific advice on which cultivars to use because I've never tried to get fruiting bananas here, but do occasionally see the odd Musa acuminata type with fruit, and have even tasted one from a local Oakland plant, but it wasn't exactly sweet; in fact to be honest, I would have said it was much ado about nothing in taste. In general, you will want to push your bananas to grow as fast as possible with fertilizer, and may need to cover the banana clusters in freezing weather. I have never seen any Musa species here locally that did not lose all its leaves to frost damage right at 32F or lower.

I've much more experience with growing the ornamental Ensete ventricosum 'Maurellii' and Musella lasiocarpa, which are both probably hardier to cold than most Musa acuminata, but still lose foliage in winter with freezing temperatures, but bounce right back in spring. You are certainly more similar to southern California with your December temps there in Pygros, as we rarely have 70F temps here in San Francisco in December. On the other hand, it does sound like you do have a good 2 to 3 months of colder weather at the beginning of the year, which will bring banana ripening to a complete halt, unless you can goose the heat levels enough with a good microclimate.

[Kostas]

Thank you very much for your reply bahia

Unfortunately i dont know that,i know however than tomatoes in Greece are generally grown outside unprotected except if the grower want to have a winter crop in which case they use greenhouses or if they want to jump start them early in the year in which case they use small metal forks to make a mini greenhouse with a greenhouse plastic strip resting above the metal forks and buried in the ground on both sides. Thats what they do in Peloponissos and the warm agricultural parts of Attica. A good part of Crete is warm yearround and below 0C tempratures are very rare from what i know.

Fortunately it doesnt fall below 0C in Pyrgos all the years,only some of them(although i would say half/half maybe),this year's official low was 1,7C for Pyrgos. A min/max thermometer at the North side of my property recorded -1C so that was probably my low as i am on the way out of town and dont get the full town warmth. Monstera and Alocasia odora did not loose their leaves under light canopy. I think even exposed ones didnt damage at all.

Its great to hear Ensete ventricosum are considered hardier. I hope mine dont loose their leafs every year but at least their speed of growth is amazing!

Indeed,i have 2 months with mean temprature 11C and a further 3rd with mean tempratures 14.5C. That will probably stall them. But wont they continue ripening when good tempratures arrive again?

I think i am leaning towards Musa sikkimensis,maybe the red banded variety,hoping that being hardier,it may not loose its leafs every winter as Musa basjoo doesnt. Also it will hopefully set fruit most of the years. Is there really such a difference or it the cold hardiness difference only in the corm? Will Musa acuminata look worse than Musa sikkimensis most of the time or will they be about the same in the looks(regarding cold damage)?

[bahia]

With all the various hardier Musa species and foliage cold hardiness, I don't think there is much difference at all as to how the foliage reacts once it drops below freezing, they all start to burn right at 32F/0C. There probably are major differences between which species is first to bounce back after damage, but as I don't actually grow any of the ones you mention, I can't say. In general, if you are warm enough to get banana fruits to form, and can then protect them for the coldest months, once it warms up again, they can still give good fruit. It is obvious here in California, however, that the warmer the day time temperatures typically are in winter, the better your chances of getting tasty fruit. That is why no one besides hobbiest growers here in San Francisco Bay Area try growing Musa varieties for reliable fruiting, as our daytime highs in the middle of winter aren't reliably warm enough to develop good, sweet bananas on a consistent basis, and even our summer time night lows are a bit low at 55~58F maximum to really sweeten bananas. I would expect that late spring through late fall heat is not lacking for you, so you'll do better.

Try them and see, and expect cosmetic damage on foliage that you just prune off later.

I was in Crete in the middle of May, and mostly what I saw at that time was tomatoes being grown under cover of hoop houses, which looked to be permanent year round culture, perhaps to jump start the season, but also to provide more consistent conditions and less drying out from winds in summer? I was very impressed with the beauty of the island, and it seemed a bit of paradise on earth coming from California, where so little of the coast is not heavily urbanized. I know that there are entire sections of California coastline where it is still wild, but not in southern California where the majority of the population lives.

[gilles06]

kalimera Kostas,

You can try musa orinoco, musa rajapuri, musa dwarf brazilian which can produce edible bananas without seeds in zone9. Musa orinoco can resist to -10°C.

Musa acuminata is very cold tender.

Salut.

[gyuseppe]

You can try musa orinoco, musa rajapuri, musa dwarf brazilian which can produce edible bananas without seeds in zone9. Musa orinoco can resist to -10°C.

Musa acuminata is very cold tender.

gilles where we can find these muse in europe?

[gilles06]

Salve Gyuseppe,

I sent you a pm.

Ciao.

[Kostas]

Thank you very much all of you for your replys!

bahia,

Since Musa basjoo keeps leafs and matures fruits most of the year,if there isnt too much difference in leaf hardiness,then i will hopefully not have to protect anything in winter. The summer night time lows are at about 70-80s from early summer so i suppose this will help sweeten the fruit. I am already having consistently 58F night time lows in Pyrgos and it only gets higher as the summer sets in

I am glad you liked Crete! I have only been once there for a seminar so i havent seen much of it yet unfortunately. I hope to change that in the next few years

Here the permanent greenhouses are extreemely few. Most just use a permanent metal skeleton which they cover with greenhouse plastic as needed. They would probably strip the plastic off latter except if they use it to conserve water as you said as its dry on a good part of the island. Hania are rainny though from what i have heard from Cretan friends of mine

[Kostas]

Kalimera Gilles!

Great to see you know some Greek!

I will keep these cultivars in mind,thank you very much!

How tender is the true Musa acuminata?

I am leaning heavilly towards Musa sikkimensis. Its tall,cold hardy,exceptionally beautyfull and bears edible fruit.I think it has the most positive characteristics of any of the Musa species i liked and has the most potential to look good yearround and not just in warm weather. Do you know if the geographical variety with the red stripes and pink undersides grows as tall as the regular one or if there is any other difference besides intense coloration?

Thank you very much in advance

[gilles06]

Hi Kostas,

Any musa will loose leaves with a temperature of -2°C even Basjoo. And when the temperature isn't so cold in winter that's wind which chop the leaves.

Musa Sikkimensis is not cultivated for the fruits , because they are seeded. I think the green and the red Form are similar in highness.

I am not sure but the acuminata can die with freeze( 0°C).

Salut.

[Kostas]

Hi Gilles,

Thank you very much for your reply and help!

If Musa sikkimensis has a similar leaf hardiness to Musa basjoo,which it supposedly even exceeds in cold hardiness,then it will only be loosing its leafs once in a few to several years as it doesnt get to -2C annually in Pyrgos but much less often! The basjoo in Pyrgos keep their leafs and fruits most of the years and only get tattered without getting broken leafs from the wind. Good to know that the 2 geographical varieties grow to similar height! Their fruits are supposedly edible although they wouldnt of course be cultivated commercially for their fruits as they produce few hands and the flesh found among the seeds isnt too much.But if its sweet,it does fine to me as treat now and then

I guess i am gonna have to leave the acuminata and any other ultra tropical bananas then...I suppose Musa peekelii would be equally wimpy,right?