Lets talk about lawns

[Bags]

I am finding it can be difficult to find the right lawn for various conditions. I have a dog and various shade and sun parts of my yard that are creating different challenges.

My front yard has a bermuda hybrid that looks good and never gets any burn from my dogs urine. It is a creaping grass that will cover any bad spots quickly. The problem with this grass is it goes dormant when the weather gets cool and it will only survive in full sun, so this may be a problem as my yard fills in, but for now it is great.

In my back yard I have Tall Fescue. It is north facing so is full shade in the winter and full sun in the summer. It also stays very wet in the shade. My dog is quickly killing the grass and it looks terrible. I bought plugs of Saint Augustine that I am considering planting and letting it take over. What is working for you guys with similar conditions?

[OverGrown]

I'm diggin the synthetic lawns although I have not heard about how they hold up in actual practice. The idea of no mowing and no water sounds appealing to me.

[bahia]

I've had no luck with Tall Fescue Blends in shady/wet north facing exposures, it tends to die out in winter from these conditions. I don't think there is a perfect lawn grass that tolerates dog urine,sun or shade, wet or dry soils. From the standpoint of a grass or grass substitute that does work with both sun/shade and wet/dry, I can highly recommend using Carex divulsa, Berkeley Sedge as a lawn substitute, which can be seeded or planted out as plugs, and keeps its deep green color all year round, and is as good here in Berkeley, California in full sun with once a month watering, as it is in full shade. It does not spread at the roots, so needs to planted about 3 to 4 inches on center if you want it as a lawn, and must also be mown regularly in the warm months to about 3 inch height if you don't want a meadow of 18 inch tall Carex.

I've also used Carex pansa/praegacilis as a lawn substitute, which does fill in from the roots to form a thick sod, but it is not as broadly tolerant of abuse/sun/shade/drought/high traffic/urine as is the Carex divulsa.

Can you teach your dog not to use the lawn to pee? Probably this will give you more choices on a lawn substitute for the Tall Fescue Blend you already have. I have come to think that this type of sod is all hype and no performance from a drought tolerant standpoint, and like you, have found it worthless for areas that are too wet and shady in winter. In one location for a client where I was faced with identical concerns, I ended up installing artificial turf...

[Alicehunter2000]

bahia what do you think about bahia grass?

[Gonzer]

Bahia, I sure as shoot know I'm gonna catch flak for this especially since it doesn't add substance to your thread but no lawns are my favorite. They are without question the largest consumers of potable water in California, roughly 65% I believe. Try and guess, by randomly driving through neighborhoods, how many people know nothing about proper irrigation techniques. In these days of irrigation cutbacks it really makes me (and others) scratch our heads as new housing developments continue to be built with lawn areas already included as standard equipment. Recreation parks along with football and baseball fields are the only tangible exemptions IMO even though the majority utilize re-claimed water.

[Brad-Tampa]

I tend to end up with "mutt grass" (what ever grows gets mowed).

[Walter John]

Bahia, I sure as shoot know I'm gonna catch flak for this especially since it doesn't add substance to your thread but no lawns are my favorite. They are without question the largest consumers of potable water in California, roughly 65% I believe.

The energy and cost and water given to growing/maintaining lawns is criminal.

amen.

I have my flak jacket on too, away you go lawn lovers !

[LJG]

A tropical/subtropical palm gardener giving a grass lover a hard time is like a vegetarian giving a meat eater a hard time while wearing leather. The bottom line is anything other then native landscapes are a drain on our resources.

[BS Man about Palms]

Bahia, I sure as shoot know I'm gonna catch flak for this especially since it doesn't add substance to your thread but no lawns are my favorite. They are without question the largest consumers of potable water in California, roughly 65% I believe. Try and guess, by randomly driving through neighborhoods, how many people know nothing about proper irrigation techniques. In these days of irrigation cutbacks it really makes me (and others) scratch our heads as new housing developments continue to be built with lawn areas already included as standard equipment. Recreation parks along with football and baseball fields are the only tangible exemptions IMO even though the majority utilize re-claimed water.

I have to admit I almost replied "Plastic".

[bahia]

I've got no direct experience with Pasalpam/Bahia Grass, as it prefers hot humid summers and sandy soils, and while it is supposed to be good in shady areas, I doubt it would be a good candidate for a shady and wet in winter southern California coastal garden without sandy soils. I did see this grass growing nearly everywhere when I actually lived in Salvador, Bahia, Brazil, (hence my log in name, also because I live in the "Bay Area". It is surely a tough, fairly drought tolerant grass for the more tropical location with beach conditions and/or sandy soils, but it doesn't look nearly as manicured as more expensive lawns, and even in Brazil is considered more utilitarian than high end. It simply is not a good candidate for a lawn here in northern California, we don't have the climate for it.

Other subtropical grasses from Africa, however, such as Kikuyu grass, Pennisetum clandestinum actually do grow well here, and are one of those grasses that tends to take over many lawns if given a chance, and can even survive a 6 month dry season and remain green, although it certainly looks better with at least some water. Not any better than Tall Fescue in deep shade, however, and I am sure the Australians here would immediately shout out that this is a vile weed that shouldn't be let loose in a garden. All I can say, is that climate affects how this grows to a great degree, and it is manageable as well as probably the most drought tolerant of the subtropical grasses for our coastal northern California climate. It does need a good solid mow band to contain it, however, and will go brown with any frost, and for people who obsess about thatch build-up, they will have their hands full with this grass. Quite widespread here in the SF East Bay, and I personally would design gardens with it, but so far have not been able to convince any to use it!

No arguments here about grass not being a necessity in a garden. I don't have any lawn anymore in my own garden, and only about half the gardens I design have lawns. The Carex species I mentioned probably aren't that useful outside of California and the Pacific Northwest, but they thrive here and are much less water demanding than hybrid or common Bermuda grass, which look like crap here if they go a month without irrigation in summer. The Carex divulsa stays a deep emerald green here in summer in clay loam soils with just once a month irrigation in coastal climates, I am not sure if it would be as drought tolerant in inland southern California, but I feel pretty certain it could easily take once every 10 days irrigation with ease. I've also experimented with using dwarf Mondo grass as a substitute lawn, and Gazania-like walk-on ground covers like the South African Dymondia margaratae work very well as a lawn substitute for a full sun situation, and are also used quite a bit throughout California for this purpose.

I do like the low ground plane/negative space that lawns can provide, and from a landscape designer's standpoint, love palms, but could never jam them into a garden so thickly that one can't appreciate them singly as well as a part of the garden. I know the compulsion to keep on collecting and growing plants or palms, but just don't see the charm of some palm collectors' gardens where they keep jamming more in. I am sure that may seem as blasphemous as being anti-lawn, to some people. The only reason I bring it up in the context of this post, is that lawns and palms often look very good together, and some of my favorite palmy scenes would include groves of Coconuts backing the beach/praia of Piata(n) in Salvador, Bahia, with a natural lawn of Bahia grass below them. I also really like the center median of Dolores Street here in San Francisco, with its mown lawn and 100 year old plantings of various Phoenix canariensis, Washingtonia palms, the occasional Brahea. A very simple design, but always pleasing to the eye and an elegant to boot. Dick's garden out in Walnut Creek is also a great example of a nice balance between lawn and palms, and sensitive placement/spacing that really shows off the individual palms.

I only gave suggestions about possible lawn choices, because that is what the OP asked for... No doubt lawns will lose some of their popularity as the default ground cover, especially as water continues to get more expensive and less available, but we haven't reached that tipping point yet, for most people. In a more tropical climate with year round rainfall, I don't think I would be anti-lawn at all, unless a lawn was the only thing in the garden...

As to whether a non-native landscape is always more of a drain on resources than an all natives garden, I'm not so sure that is true in all cases. Just from a water and fertilizing standpoint, it is certainly possible to design a garden with non-native succulents, drought tolerant subtropicals and palms, and a mix of Mediterranean climate plants from elsewhere around the world, and get it to survive and even look good here in northern California, without much if any summer irrigation. It would mean, however, having to forgo all those more water loving plants that need summer water to grow, and stay more in tune with most plant's preference to go summer dormant in our local climate, simply because we have a 6 month dry season. I am sure you could make the same case for using similar climate adapted plants for winter dry climate such as Florida and parts of Australia, or also tropical/subtropical climates with more evenly spaced rains throughout the year. Personally I greatly enjoy working with the local climate we have here, it is both challenging and a temptation to grow almost everything, but ultimately more sastisfying for me to try and work with the climate and not force plants to grow here only due to extraordinary efforts. I like being able to identify my location because of what both grows here naturally and is still so extensive in the surrounding hills, along with the introduced plants from around the world that also seem so much a part of San Francisco now, such as our Eucalyptus ficifolia and other Eucs, Camphor trees, Jacarandas, Schinus molle, Metrosideros, Phoenix canariensis and Queen palms andWashingtonia robusta, to name just a few. The fact that we can grow so many evergreen trees here that may even be extremely rare in habitat, but thrive here, is one of those things that make gardening so much fun here.

[palmmermaid]

Bahia, I sure as shoot know I'm gonna catch flak for this especially since it doesn't add substance to your thread but no lawns are my favorite. They are without question the largest consumers of potable water in California, roughly 65% I believe.

The energy and cost and water given to growing/maintaining lawns is criminal.

amen.

I have my flak jacket on too, away you go lawn lovers !

I have my jacket on as well. My goal is to eliminate all the grass in my garden and replace it with other plants. I don't fertilize mine, I just mow it and the weeds. It's all green. My favorite one if good old bahia. Just about indestructible and maintenamce free. And my horses like it. And it doesn't crawl into your flower beds and over your plants. So if you must have grass, try this one. Or get a pasture blend that has several kinds of plants in it and is pretty maintenance free.

[Moose]

I agree with Kitty and the other flak jacket wearers. If you have lawn, keep planting - you do not have to mow mulch.

Ron.

[virtualpalm]

You could always do what I did when my palms got so large and provided so much shade that the St. Augustine grass (plus weeds) would no longer grow in my front yard. I got rid of all of it and put down pine bark mulch in pathways around my raised landscape beds. The bark lasts for years and has allowed me to get rid of my lawn mower - YEAH! It is also quite pleasant to walk on and is -- at least to me -- quite aesthetic. Here are a couple photos to illustrate:

Jody

[Mark_NoVA]

There have been a large amount of studies done for different grasses around the USA which you can find at http://www.ntep.org/ (National Turfgrass Evaluation Program). Find the universities/sites closest to your area, and see which grass seed has done best. Warning: it can take a while to sort through it all. My experience here was that the best grass seeds were hard to find to purchase, even on the internet. I did eventually get some of those seeds, though, and there is a noticeable difference with them.

[MattyB]

Marathon I, should take part sun/shade and is the fastest grower and repairs the best for dogs and foot traffic.

[Bags]

Thanks for the replies. I did not expect the lawn haters to come out, but it is making this thread a little more interesting. I don't think replacing your lawn with palms puts anyone on the cutting edge of conservation though. I guess we can blame all of the drought problems on all of the lawns out there, but the real problem is the inability of the government to use the resources we do have such as reclaimed water and desalination. I aslo find it hard to drive by a municiple golf course with 100 acres of lawn and then be expected to feel guilty for my 1000' of lawn. I do what I can and have installed drip irrigation, I use mulch and do not bag my lawn clippings, but the truth is I am going use as much water as it takes to make my yard look good. For me a lawn makes a yard feel open frames the planters and makes it more functional. I have a two year old and I am glad I have a lawn to play on, put a blow up jumpy on etc... As the kids get older the lawn may get smaller, but the primary motivation will probably be to have more room for palms.

Bahia the carex looks interesting. I could not find any info on how it does with dogs, but I will keep looking

Matty marathon is tall fescue like I have. It is good for the sun, shade and foot trafic, but terrible for the dog. My dog is a female and there are dead spots everywhere. I have put seed and topper in the dead spots, but I can't keep up.

[Bags]

jody your yard looks amazing. Some of my yard may evolve into something like that, but that will be down the road.

[Bags]

Does anyone have St. Augustine grass with some of the conditions I described? How is it holding up?

[Walter John]

You're a sport Bags (sport bags ?) and if I had younger kids, I'd have grass, not true lawn, just grass so you could play footy and cricket etc.

[Shon]

I have grass in front and back that keeps getting smaller each year. I pretty much gave up on the front it only gets overspray from the palm sprinklers. But as the trees grow the grass will green up again. If it were'nt for the kids I would have no gras at all.

[rozpalm]

Does anyone have St. Augustine grass with some of the conditions I described? How is it holding up?

I doubt it would ever grow well in California since it needs a lot of water and hates cold temps. Also, keep in mind they have yet figured out how to grow it from seed. That means you will need to order sprigs or find someone that can sell it to you in piece form. Personally, I think its a horrible lawn material. Its coarse to walk on and in the summer you really need to cut it twice a week.

Slowly I am getting rid of all my St. Augustine in the back yard, but I still have to maintain a huge front lawn to keep the HOA happy. Its a real PIA and there is no way to keep it looking good without quite a bit of chemicals.

[SunnyFl]

Ahh Jody, your yard! Wow! I wish I could do that without the torpedo grass and other nasties invading it all.

I'm with Brad in Tampa. If it grows and I can mow it, it's a lawn. And there's a lot less of it than there used to be!

Can't answer about the grass in California, but here, St. Augustine is a waterhog in the sun. It just fries. Looks nice in medium shade though. Bahia is drought-hardy but lets in weeds and needs mucho mowing. Bermuda grass here takes a lot of maintenance for it to look like a good lawn, and it invades everything. Zoysia is truly drought-tolerant but if it isn't irrigated, will turn all dry and brown till rainy season. And it invades the mulched beds badly too.

Around here, the municipalities are replacing grass in some of the medians with ornamental peanut. Beautiful low-growing ground cover with bright yellow flowers, is neat, and can be mowed. I doubt it would be a good choice if kids are playing on the lawn, though.

[mnorell]

I am with the no-lawn folks, particularly as I hail from southern California where I've always hated the sea of brown, untended lawns, and have never understood the insistance on it in a desert climate that is running out of resources fast...but of course that's your option, and I think there are good turf resources on the web as mentioned above. I think St. Augustine will hate it in Encinitas, it's our primary lawn here in the Gulf South, where we have 60+ inches of rain a year, and it is lush and beautiful under those circumstances with lots of heat and humidity. There is a variety called 'Palmetto' which is very resistant to dormancy and will stand cold weather and freezes without going to sleep. But I don't know if it can do with your cool 50s-and-60s climate year-round at the coast.

My favorite lawn is the grass that is used at Fairchild in Miami fringing the lakes. Since I'm not a turf expert in the least, I have no idea what it is, but it is fine-textured, low, creeping and just beautiful with palms popping up from it. It must be able to deal with drought since it retains its beauty in a place that is dry for months on end in winter. Anyone know what it is and its climate requirements?

[Brad-Tampa]

I am with the no-lawn folks, particularly as I hail from southern California where I've always hated the sea of brown, untended lawns, and have never understood the insistance on it in a desert climate that is running out of resources fast...but of course that's your option, and I think there are good turf resources on the web as mentioned above. I think St. Augustine will hate it in Encinitas, it's our primary lawn here in the Gulf South, where we have 60+ inches of rain a year, and it is lush and beautiful under those circumstances with lots of heat and humidity. There is a variety called 'Palmetto' which is very resistant to dormancy and will stand cold weather and freezes without going to sleep. But I don't know if it can do with your cool 50s-and-60s climate year-round at the coast.

My favorite lawn is the grass that is used at Fairchild in Miami fringing the lakes. Since I'm not a turf expert in the least, I have no idea what it is, but it is fine-textured, low, creeping and just beautiful with palms popping up from it. It must be able to deal with drought since it retains its beauty in a place that is dry for months on end in winter. Anyone know what it is and its climate requirements?

It may be seaside paspalum (Paspalum vaginatum), a Florida native grass that is particularly salt tolerant, with cultivars quite popular as a turf grass in marine environments, including golf courses.

[virtualpalm]

I am with the no-lawn folks, particularly as I hail from southern California where I've always hated the sea of brown, untended lawns, and have never understood the insistance on it in a desert climate that is running out of resources fast...but of course that's your option, and I think there are good turf resources on the web as mentioned above. I think St. Augustine will hate it in Encinitas, it's our primary lawn here in the Gulf South, where we have 60+ inches of rain a year, and it is lush and beautiful under those circumstances with lots of heat and humidity. There is a variety called 'Palmetto' which is very resistant to dormancy and will stand cold weather and freezes without going to sleep. But I don't know if it can do with your cool 50s-and-60s climate year-round at the coast.

My favorite lawn is the grass that is used at Fairchild in Miami fringing the lakes. Since I'm not a turf expert in the least, I have no idea what it is, but it is fine-textured, low, creeping and just beautiful with palms popping up from it. It must be able to deal with drought since it retains its beauty in a place that is dry for months on end in winter. Anyone know what it is and its climate requirements?

It may be seaside paspalum (Paspalum vaginatum), a Florida native grass that is particularly salt tolerant, with cultivars quite popular as a turf grass in marine environments, including golf courses.

I think it is zoysia, but I don't know the cultivar.

Jody

[SunnyFl]

I think it is zoysia, but I don't know the cultivar.

Jody

Could be Empire Zoysia - that's the hybrid usually recommended for the FL peninsula, just a guess.

[palmmermaid]

Does anyone have St. Augustine grass with some of the conditions I described? How is it holding up?

I doubt it would ever grow well in California since it needs a lot of water and hates cold temps. Also, keep in mind they have yet figured out how to grow it from seed. That means you will need to order sprigs or find someone that can sell it to you in piece form. Personally, I think its a horrible lawn material. Its coarse to walk on and in the summer you really need to cut it twice a week.

Slowly I am getting rid of all my St. Augustine in the back yard, but I still have to maintain a huge front lawn to keep the HOA happy. Its a real PIA and there is no way to keep it looking good without quite a bit of chemicals.

Ron,

I think you may be able to change that front from grass to something else shortly. I just read where a HOA can't refuse a request to create a drought tolerant yard even in the front. Some Florida statute the HOAs don't want you to know about. Here in the Acreage we don't have one - thank goodness! They also can't stop you from putting up aclothes line to dry your clothes instead of using a dryer.

As for my palm garden needing as much water as grass, that just isn't so. I plant a dry palm in a dry place, a water-loving palm in a wet area, and then mulch. I'm on my second 25 yards of mulch this year. Once the palm is established, it only gets rain or twice a week irrigation. It is all about planning and putting the right plant in the right place. Don't underplant a date palm with impatiens, use bromeliads or succulents.

[tjwalters]

I guess I am in both camps (have a lawn and hate them), and since I am up north, probably don't have anything relevant to contribute. I did find this on wiki, though: "In a recent NASA-sponsored study, researcher Christina Milesi estimated the area covered by lawns in the United States to be about 128,000 square kilometers (nearly 32 million acres), making it the nation's largest irrigated crop by area."

[SunnyFl]

As for my palm garden needing as much water as grass, that just isn't so. I plant a dry palm in a dry place, a water-loving palm in a wet area, and then mulch.

I'm with you on that one. I have a bottle (recovered beautifully from last winter, btw) planted out with yellow elder and bougies, and they are water-misers. The spindle and glauca planted out with purple queen (and invaded by zoysia) only need watering during drought conditions, and they don't like a lot. The "lawn" I have left is a different story entirely.

TJ had this to say:

I did find this on wiki, though: "In a recent NASA-sponsored study, researcher Christina Milesi estimated the area covered by lawns in the United States to be about 128,000 square kilometers (nearly 32 million acres), making it the nation's largest irrigated crop by area."

The largest irrigated crop? Now that's just sad.

[Walter John]

Lawn lovers must die !!!!

"Now Wal, don't you think that's going a little overboard ?"

[SubTropicRay]

The best lawn is no lawn at all!

[Gonzer]

Lawn lovers must die !!!!

[Moose]

Wango Tango - I see what direction this thread his heading ...

[SFloridacollector]

I am finding it can be difficult to find the right lawn for various conditions. I have a dog and various shade and sun parts of my yard that are creating different challenges.

My front yard has a bermuda hybrid that looks good and never gets any burn from my dogs urine. It is a creaping grass that will cover any bad spots quickly. The problem with this grass is it goes dormant when the weather gets cool and it will only survive in full sun, so this may be a problem as my yard fills in, but for now it is great.

In my back yard I have Tall Fescue. It is north facing so is full shade in the winter and full sun in the summer. It also stays very wet in the shade. My dog is quickly killing the grass and it looks terrible. I bought plugs of Saint Augustine that I am considering planting and letting it take over. What is working for you guys with similar conditions?

I love my zoysia as an alternative to St. Augustine here in South Florida. Here it's 'Empire' or 'Ultimate Flora' zoysias that perform.

What works is a function of geographic location. Each part of the country grows a different type of grass.

[Moose]

Each part of the country grows a different type of grass

We are not supposed to mention types of cannabis on this forum, the mod patrol is coming

[ariscott]

I put around 300sqm of lawns... I know it sounds like a lot but I have 5 acres to play with. I put lawns down around the house for the kids and to keep the dust down. I don't care if it is not perfect. I planted Empire Zoysia and it is simply the best lawn IMO. It doesn't need a lot of water to survive and very drought tolerant. It is also slow growing, so a lot easier on the mower. The rest of the block has native grass which will die in the dry season and go rampage in the wet. Eventually, once I have canopy, the native grass will die and the trees will self mulch... For the time being, I just have to mow and slash in the wet season.

Regards, Ari

[cagary]

St. Augustine does fine here in south Orange County, CA.

It stops growing in the winter, but that just means you don't have to mow.

I have a little patch of Variegated St. Augustine.

I planted it from plugs. Here's a photo of it just as the plugs were filling in.

[Al in Kona]

I've seen St. Augusine grass lawns looking very nice in Sothern California. My sister in the Pasadena area had a nice lawn of it as long as it gets enough sun. Don't believe it is satisfactory in mostly shade areas however.

The only grass (mixed grasses) we have in our garden is under the clothesline and it grows on whatever rain falls. Also some of the pathways do have mixed grass growing (not planted by me) and they will occasionally need cutting. Other open still unplanted areas get lots of weeds and grass growing especially during the rainier times and they do need weed whacking a couple times a year or some of those weeds would be taller than me (6') and almost become trees in themselves. Eventually those areas will be planted with mostly fruit trees, however.

[MattyB]

Matty marathon is tall fescue like I have. It is good for the sun, shade and foot trafic, but terrible for the dog. My dog is a female and there are dead spots everywhere. I have put seed and topper in the dead spots, but I can't keep up.

Bags,

If your only problem is the dog urine then try a product like this. I've heard from many dog lovers that it really works.

Female Urine Nutralizer

[doubravsky]

Matt,

you know someone that has used it? I always look at this stuff but am afraid to try it because most people I talk to say it is hopeless.