Super Rare Tree - I think

[Dypsisdean]

There are some more pics of this tree on Palmpedia. I am hoping someone can tell me something about it. I can't find much info on this genus, and have no idea what species this is. Sun/shade??? Eventual size???

MORE PICS

[ariscott]

I have replied on Palmpedia. One thing I might add, the ones in Cairns were about 3m. Definitely shade.

This is not mine (I wished).... The shadehouse where it is growing is much shadier than mine. I am not sure how old they are... I can ask them next time I see them

Regards, Ari

Edited May 24, 2008 by ariscott

[Palm Guy]

Sweet looking tree...and who says money doesn't grow on trees? I wonder what it is.

[Alan_Tampa]

Someone had these a few years back and I cannot remember who it was. I know this is useless, but know I have been kicking myself for not trying one.

Alan

[LJG]

Wow. Nice score Dean. Was that from Karel?

[Dypsisdean]

  LJG said:

Wow. Nice score Dean. Was that from Karel?

Yep

[ariscott]

How is that going, BTW? Have you found a good spot for it? I find shady and moist (but not wet) is perfect.... Mine is nowhere near as big as yours though...

Regards, Ari

[Jeff Searle]

Dean,

What an $$mpressive tree!! It's new to me and the genus as well. Do you have any idea where it's native to? After we find this out, I'll put an expidition trip together. Give me 2-3 months. But, very nice.

Jeff

[aussiearoids]

Panama ,, http://mobot.mobot.org/cgi-bin/search_vast...a%20macrophylla

[Dypsisdean]

  aussiearoids said:

Panama ,, http://mobot.mobot.org/cgi-bin/search_vast...a%20macrophylla

Thanks for the link Michael. Apparently there are several species from several places, mostly equatorial regions. The link you provided (P. macrophylla) is the "common" one, a green form with a slightly smaller leaf. I would really like to know the what species the red/purple plant is. Here is a pic of P. macrophylla from the MoBot link.

[Dypsisdean]

  ariscott said:

How is that going, BTW? Have you found a good spot for it? I find shady and moist (but not wet) is perfect.... Mine is nowhere near as big as yours though...

Regards, Ari

Hi Ari,

I have cleared a nice space for mine where I can enjoy looking at it. But I have been a little preoccupied with planting palms though. However, the resurrection of this thread has moved the task of planting this plant to the top of the list for today. I'll post a pic of the planting if I can get a good one.

[Dypsisdean]

  Jeff Searle said:

Dean,

What an $$mpressive tree!! It's new to me and the genus as well. Do you have any idea where it's native to? After we find this out, I'll put an expidition trip together. Give me 2-3 months. But, very nice.

Jeff

Thanks Jeff,

I guess I answered my own question. It has to be super rare if J. S. hasn't heard of it.

Hopefully I can get a seed or two, because it may be a while before I could bear taking a cutting.

[ariscott]

  Dypsisdean said:

  aussiearoids said:

Panama ,, http://mobot.mobot.org/cgi-bin/search_vast...a%20macrophylla

Thanks for the link Michael. Apparently there are several species from several places, mostly equatorial regions. The link you provided (P. macrophylla) is the "common" one, a green form with a slightly smaller leaf. I would really like to know the what species the red/purple plant is. Here is a pic of P. macrophylla from the MoBot link.

As far as I know... mine is P. macrophylla. And mine is very similar to yours... I might venture to the shadehouse today and take a photo.

Regards, Ari

[Wai`anae Steve]

  Dypsisdean said:

  Jeff Searle said:

Dean,

What an $$mpressive tree!! It's new to me and the genus as well. Do you have any idea where it's native to? After we find this out, I'll put an expidition trip together. Give me 2-3 months. But, very nice.

Jeff

Thanks Jeff,

I guess I answered my own question. It has to be super rare if J. S. hasn't heard of it.

Hopefully I can get a seed or two, because it may be a while before I could bear taking a cutting.

Dean, If you ever get seeds or are brave enough to take cuttings PLEASE..................don't forget Wai`anae Steve. I"m sure it will grow here given enough water.

[XYZ]

Greetings:

Sorry to differ, but these are by no stretch of the imagination rare trees...although they may be in general cultivation in the 'States. Dare I venture to say that their absence there does not speak anything to their relative abundance elsewhere?

They are very common subcanopy components in tropical wet/rain forests throughout the warmer parts of the Neotropics north to NE Guatemala. I believe that the finest species for ornamental cultivation is Pentagonia grandiflora var. rubra ...the one also depicted above...I have to admit I originally confused this for a Gustavia...wishful thinking, I'm afraid. It does, however grow cheek-by-jowl with G. superba that shares the showy long leaves and love of shady streamsides. Late last year I was told that trees from this particular population from eastern Panamá and western Colombia are also being grown at Fairchild, so you guys can see whether they're still alive. Enid Offolter at Natural Selections has (had?) the orbicular-leaf Ecuadoran sp. being grown by some of the tropical tree buffs in SoFlo.

Our native subspecies of Pentagonia macrophylla is quite difference in appearance and grows to approx. 12 m (40') tall...IMO, rather reminiscent of a Dillenia or one of the dinner plate figs from Australasia. They can be propagated by cuttings, but not easy and they may have problems regaining apical dominance if propagated this way.

Should you folks still feel compelled to underwrite a seed-collecting journey to the bundu, I'd be more than happy to take your money come next dry season Otherwise I'll send some seedlings up to one of my buyers for sale later this year.

Flowers of some spp. are quite attractive, seed is fine (for a rubiac) and takes a while to germinate. I have some down from late last year from a Colombian sp. that purportedly has bright red flowers and ginormous leaf blades.

SJ

Edited June 23, 2008 by stone jaguar

[XYZ]

Too much coffe this morning...

OK, after three (or four?) edits and having finally sorted out my field notes, here again are some habit photos of these two spp in Guatemala and Panamá. This ecotype of Pentagonia grandiflora does not resemble the populations from western South America, so people interested in this particular color combo and habit (treelet) should be aware that other subspecies are all green.

Again, this is P. macrophylla on the Guatemalan-Honduran border...grows all over the region.

SJ

[Dypsisdean]

Jay,

Thanks a million for taking the time for all those cool habitat pics and that valuable information. I had been trying for a while to get a name on that red/purple species. I hope you had a chance to go HERE to see some other pics, but more importantly the pic of the flower. Apparently the 'rubra' doesn't have much of a flower???

Also, if you would, a few other questions/clarifications. What is the growth habit and eventual size of the 'rubra?' And the orbicular-leaf Ecuadoran sp. that Enid was (is) growing --- is this a 'rubra,' or is it the larger green type? Regarding the seeds of the 'rubra.' Should I expect any from a single individual, and would you know their ease of germination?

You are correct when commenting on what can be considered rare. While not rare in a global sense, an ice cube is still a rare item in the Sahara. And info on the web regarding this genus and species could be considered rare as well.

Thanks Again

[XYZ]

Did not know that Arden was growing this at Whyanbeal. Assume he got it from the same source that FTG did.

Glad to be of service. Frankly, I was so struck by its beauty when I first encountered a bunch of these things in habitat, together with loads of Gustavia superba, that I leaped to the conclusion that it was a lecythid without even the most casual examination of the stems and leaf bases, which together with its leaf blade size would have immediately suggested it to be a rubiac (stipules in leaf axils and so forth). It was only after I submitted these photos to a tropical tree expert that was familiar with the FTG material was I slapped back to reality. I will say that most of the wild treelets that I have found have the most remarkable metallic sheen to the upper leaf surfaces that proved elusive to capture in a photographic image.

Generally speaking, Neotropical rubiacs with nice leaves rarely have impressive flowers and vice versa (see Osa, Psychotria, Warscewiczia, Posoqueria, etc.). The showier flowers that I have seen on pentagonias have all been on Jolly Green Giant-types...although this sp. that I'm germinating from Colombia is s'posed to have both nice leaves and flowers.

You'd need to write E and see whether and what she is still growing; I strongly suspect that she still has some kicking around the old homestead.

The nominate race of grandiflora gets pretty big...certainly to 10-12 m (33-39'). I have seen >100 of var. rubra in habitat and never have found them taller than about 4 m (13'). They are invariably in very shaded, very wet forest primary forest adjacent to either trails, tree falls or streams...all light gaps. Not sure whether they persist in secondary habitats. Would be VERY surprised to find that they are sun tolerant to any degree.

Have never pollinated one so it's anyone's guess as to whether they will self...some rare members of this family here have been shown to exhibit significantly reduced fertility when selfed. On the other hand, there are also loads of cleistogamous rubiacs, so I'd certainly try a selfing.

BRgds,

J

[Dypsisdean]

Thanks once again Jay.

It is rare I can get all my questions answered so quickly and efficiently. One last loose end. Do you know if that orbicular-leafed one was a green or a red?

Because of your info, I now have a perfect location in which to plant this guy. I'm putting on the gloves right now.

I'll drop Enid a note and see what she has to add.

Aloha

[amazondk]

Dean,

I am pretty sure we have some of these growing around here. Now I have to get out the forest and check this out. I have seen a lot of leaves that looked similar with purple undersides. I found this link as well which is interesting Smithonian

SJ,

We do have Gustavias around here, the G. elliptica and the G. hexapetala.

dk

[XYZ]

¡Hola, Dean!

This, of course, being a semianagram of ¡Aloha!

I have not seen any other spp. ofPentagonia with violet abaxial leaf surfaces, but there are at least 16 spp. in Panamá alone, so there may be more like this. Please note that your plant has very distinct white primary veins that contrast with a blue-green upper lamina...this, coupled with violet underneath, is obviously an unusual color combo in any tree (but see below).

Don:

Violet underleaf surfaces are quite common in many families of tropical forest plants that come from low light microenvironments (think about our infamous, invasive native Miconia calvescens) This, coupled with velvety or subvelvety upper leaf surfaces, greatly assist in light capture in the shadows. In a given area in southern Central American lowland forest, you may find a gesneriad, an orchid, a calathea, a couple melastomes, several aroids from different genera, and acanthacs with this color combo growing in close sympatry. What I find of great interest is that certain showy scandent Neotropical aroids (Philodendron andreanum, P. gigas and P. vanninii come imm. to mind) are green-velvety and violet when young and as they reach the sunlight in the upper canopy have uniformly green matte/semi-glossy leaves on both surfaces. To my mind, this proves that the violet leaf surface is only of use to the plant in the shaded understory. In any event, the plant we have been discussing above is endemic to the Greater Chocó floral community and I would consider it pretty unlikely to occur in eastern Brazil...altho' the possibility that other members of the genus in your area have pretty leaves should not be discounted.

I grow a couple gustavias here...G. dodsonii (extremely rare) and G. superba (extremely common). There was a thread on them earlier on...seeds large but do travel OK.

Saludos,

J

Edited June 24, 2008 by stone jaguar

[Dypsisdean]

Jay,

Thanks yet once again.

My tree is now in the ground, thanks to all this talk. I'll take a pic soon and post it, so if nothing else there will be a date, and a pic at the time of planting. Hopefully in a year or two I can revisit this thread and post another pic showing a happy larger plant. (Loaded with seed)

BTW --- the whole thesis about the velvet texture and colored underside of the various plants is fascinating. It has to make for one of the most beautiful leaves in the plant kingdom.

[ariscott]

Dean,

Good to see you have planted yours. I still got one in a pot and one in the ground. I did venture to the shadehouse, but the cold and dry wind that we have been getting seemed to knock them a bit so they don't really look presentable, unlike yours. I hope you put yours in the shade, as they can loose their 'maroon' colour, when planted in too much sun.

Jay,

Thanks for the info. It is surprisingly hard to find any info about them at all.

Regards, Ari

p.s. you don't have to wait till it seeds to post photos. We don't mind...

[amazondk]

J,

Thanks for the info. My area is actually strongly influenced by the flora from northern Amazonia coming down from Guiana. It is actually a convergence zone mixing the forests from eastern amazonia, southern and western as well as from the north. Our are is included in the western Brazil region, Amazonia Ocidental. That is why the Manaus area has one of the most complex forests in Amazonia. Next time I am out in the forest I am going to be more observant of the purple leafed plants.

dk

[Gbarce]

I'd love to try the Purple or red backed ones. Anybody wanna send me seeds? hehe

[ariscott]

  Gbarce said:

I'd love to try the Purple or red backed ones. Anybody wanna send me seeds? hehe

In about 20 years, Gene.

Regards, Ari

[Gbarce]

  ariscott said:

  Gbarce said:

I'd love to try the Purple or red backed ones. Anybody wanna send me seeds? hehe

In about 20 years, Gene.

Regards, Ari

Ari - I am counting the hours

[Kris]

Dear SJ

lovely report on a beautiful looking plants and lovely stills of the various varities...

thanks & love,

Kris

[aussiearoids]

Hows it doing Dean ?

[Dypsisdean]

Wow - can't believe it's been seven years.

It is still alive - but a slow grower for me. And the large tree that smashed it didn't help much either. However, a nurseryman got the other available plant back then and has managed to pollinate it. He has since spread many plants around the island - including about 5 or 6 I purchased from Lowes - that are about 3-4 ft tall now.

I guess I owe this topic a pic.

[bubba]

Tempus fugit! Virgil requests a picture.

[Dypsisdean]

OK - As promised.

Looks like I have a seed pod for the first time. It was thought these needed some help with pollination. Others have had good luck with hand pollination.

[aussiearoids]

thanks for sharing Dean

[Gbarce]

care to part with some seeds?

[Dypsisdean]

  On 9/7/2015 at 2:13 PM, Gbarce said:

care to part with some seeds?

I think I'll make sure there is any seed in the pod, and if they will sprout first. Maybe next time around.

[Dypsisdean]

  On 9/7/2015 at 2:13 PM, Gbarce said:

care to part with some seeds?

Expand  

Some seed is available. Check the Palm Exchange for Pentagonia wendlandii.