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USDA's Temperature Zone Map


Paul The Palm Doctor!

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Hi to all this fine January late afterrnoon!:

I am seeking obscure information from my fellow palm fanciers! :;):

I was wondering if anyone has ever seen (and know where I might find) a USDA Minimum Temperature Map of the Americas that has gradations including areas with Zone 12: (50-60 F.); Zone 13: (60-70 F.) and Zone 14: (70-80 F.)  Or does this extension not exist.  

As you might know, my farm in NW Panama has never had temperatures lower than 64 F. so I guess that some map somewhere must have it colored in as Zone 13???  I would love to print out that kind of a map if there were such an animal.

Any guidance would be relished! :D

Luego,

Pablito

Paul, The Palm Doctor @ http://www.thewisegardener.com

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I don't really know if it makes any difference.  Here where I live every nights low is 72 to 74 F.  The record low as 58 F from what I understand. But, I have never seen this temperature. My main concern is that my AC works well so that I can sleep comfortably.

dk

Don Kittelson

 

LIFE ON THE RIO NEGRO

03° 06' 07'' South 60° 01' 30'' West

Altitude 92 Meters / 308 feet above sea level

1,500 kms / 932 miles to the mouth of the Amazon River

 

Manaus, Amazonas, Brazil - A Cidade da Floresta

Where the world´s largest Tropical Rainforest embraces the Greatest Rivers in the World. .

82331.gif

 

Click here to visit Amazonas

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Agree it would be very helpful & not all that difficult to chart minimum temps, Pablito  :P worldwide

Dick - you are the tropic man  :D

Los Angeles/Pasadena

34° 10' N   118° 18' W

Elevation: 910'/278m

January Average Hi/Lo: 69F/50F

July Average Hi/Lo: 88F/66F

Average Rainfall: 19"/48cm

USDA 11/Sunset 23

http://cdec.water.ca.gov/cgi-progs/queryF?MTW

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Why would the United States Department of Agriculture propound, at taxpayer's expense, a map for use in Panama or Worldwide?As has been discussed on this Forum "Ad Nauseum",it's criteria is inaccurate and this has been widely acknowledged.(See Palmapedia)I propose that Premier Chavez be approached for the funding of this Project rather than the United States taxpayers.

What you look for is what is looking

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I agree, Bubba, that this project shouldn't (and wouldn't) be at taxpayers' expense; probably more at a research agricultural university's expense (which could probably add to an overall accuracy improvement all the way to Zone 1 in Alaska and Northern Canada, too.)

I just had a curiosity and quest for knowledge; it's not something that would interest everyone, but some people would indeed be intrigued to follow the zone lines accross boundries beyond our own US borders.  (Of course, it even impacts PR and HI which both now kind of get "short-shrift" with the current Zone 11 designation.)

There's always a need for educational improvements, no matter for esoteric it might seem.  Not just for horticulture but in the name of science.  That's where a cooperative mapping via universities worldwide would finance and promulgate this literature, I'd imagine.

I appreciate everyone's candor; if everyone had the same needs, this would be a very different world.  :)

Pablo

Paul, The Palm Doctor @ http://www.thewisegardener.com

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Pablo,Thank you for your cogent response.I am sorry if I was too pointed in my response.As stated numerous times on this subject, I disagree with the USDA's criteria.It's purpose is to identify those plants that can be grown in each Zone.According to this system devised by the USDA,certain small microclimates in Mediteranian climates in the US qualify for Zone 11.At the same time,South Florida according to the USDA's criteria, qualifies as 10.This makes no sense to me in that South Florida can grow hundred's of specimens that"Vigorously Flourish"that cannot be grown in these small Mediteranean US microclimates that qualify for Zone 11.This criteria defeats the stated purpose of the USDA's promulgation of these Zones.This is inapplicable to truly Tropical climates like yours in Panama.At the same time,I see you also reside in South Florida.You are obviously knowledgeable. What is your opinion on the criteria devised by the USDA that ranks South Florida behind the stated Med climates in the US higher although they can not grow numerous tropical specimens that Flourish here with ease?

What you look for is what is looking

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't these "zones" defined by the absolute lowest temps, ever recorded in those zones? If that's the case, what use are they if, for example, an absolute low is recorded every 50 years? If that were the case, there would be very few palms growing anywhere in the USA if we used the zones as a guide. We all push the zones anyway, sometimes to the extream. Coconuts in S. Calif. and Orlando? Give me a break! Maybe for a few years, but not very long.

Dick

Richard Douglas

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Dick, The Criteria used by the USDA is "The average lowest minimum temperature" over approximately 15 year increments.Although none of the Californian National Weather Services qualify for Zone 11,numerous posters keeping their own records make this claim.

I have contended "Ad Nauseum" that this is a flawed criteria to identify what the USDA attempts through this designation.Specifically,South Florida,including Fairchild, rates 10 as a Zone,when the parties with the small microclimates rate 11.This,notwithstanding the fact, that the small Californian microclimates cannot even come close to growing 100's of tropical specimens that "flourish" in South Florida.

I know you spent a number of years in South Florida and are very familiar with it's climate together with the Tropical specimens that "flourish" in this climate.I believe the USDA's criteria is obviously flawed. The average lowest minimum over a 15 year period does not take into account the high heat requirements of tropical vegetation.Specifically, in South Florida we may have lows that throw our average off but the Heat is there and that great necessity is not factored into the USDA requirement.I do not mean to hurt people's feelings,who are proud of their Zone 11 designation.That stated, I ask you as a very knowedgeable Palm person,the following question. Is there anywhere in California that can replicate Zone 10 Fairchild? If the answer is no,I believe my point is proven. Your valuable imput would be greatly appreciated.Thank you.

What you look for is what is looking

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Keith,

My answer is a resounding NO! There are hundreds of tropical palms that thrive in S. Florida that either won't grow in S. Calif., or else just "survive" and hang on. There is just not enough heat in Calif. for some of the tropicals to thrive. Our night temps. are to cool, even in S. Calif. for many of the tropicals.

Of course there are many micro climates in California, and after viewing some of the gardens that Ken and Jeff just toured in S. Calif., I was plesantly surprised to see some of the beauties growing down there. I don't get around as much as I used to, so I'm certainly not an expert on what will grow in S. Calif. I was really surprised to see such a beautiful Rhapia growing in Gary's garden as I didn't think they would grow in Calif., but I used to think Royals wouldn't grow in S. Calif.

There is just a hell of a lot of difference in a mostly tropical climate and a Med. climate. Rather than go by zones, I judge by what will grow where. Some palms like cool nights, and others require a mean minimum to thrive. There is a huge difference between N. and S. California. S. Calif. generally has about 10 degrees warmer night temps. than I do, and frost is not common down there. Even though some Arengas, Wallichias, Caryotas will exhist in my climate, they don't grow beause the mean night temps. are to low.

If the USDA zones are designated on the "average" lows, then that doesn't help very much when we have a hard freeze, such as we had in Calif. last year. A lot of tropical palms bit the dust in Calif. last year as will the coconuts and tropicals growing in Central Fla., hopefully later rather than sooner.

You are correct in stating that the USDA zones don't take into account the average high minimums in the zones.

Dick

Richard Douglas

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Humm, maybe I was wrong in saying "average high minimums."  Perhaps it should have been the "average temps." This gets confussing.

Dick

Richard Douglas

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Dick,I greatly appreciate your cogent response. I do not intend to hurt feeling's but South Florida simply cannot rationally be rated at a lower designation than Southern California.It is system that is fatally flawed and imbues a lack of credibility that is unacceptable.I greatly appreciate your understanding and it is not my intention to "throw cold water" on the Southern California grower's ,who are truly streching the Limits.The USDA needs to modify it's criteria.

What you look for is what is looking

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Paul,

I have seen such a map before, but I can't seem to find it.  I think most of the low elevation sections of Central America were zone 13.  I'm not sure if there was any zone 14 on the map.  Even Pacific islands directly on the equator drop below 70F, although the average yearly low might be just high enough to make them zone 14...

Jack

Jack Sayers

East Los Angeles

growing cold tolerant palms halfway between the equator and the arctic circle...

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Same here, Jack.  I either saw it in a climatological survey of Puerto Rico or Hawaii; can't remember!  (Getting older! Hmmmm.)  At any rate, let's put this topic to "bed"!  It raises too many emotions and all we really need to care about is growing beautiful palms and other tropicals!  

Take care of yourself...BTW: it's good to be here; don't know what took me so long!! :D

Pablito

Paul, The Palm Doctor @ http://www.thewisegardener.com

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After living quite a few years in South Florida I would say that most plants that grow here in Manaus grow there.  For the most part the climate in South Florida is similar to ours.  Except that we have no winter season as such.  Some of the plants do not do as well, but they grow.  I do not think that Southern California would be the same.  The one factor that probably determines the plant hardiness is temperatures below 40 F.  That will never happen here.  Aside from a real rare event the night temperatures here is normally around 72 F.  Last night was a bit warm for the rainy season with a low of 77F.  I guess you may be able to classify our type of climate if you can grow mangosteens well.  In reality it does not make much difference if you live in a lowland equatorial climate what zone it is classiflied as since no plant will ever freeze.  But, it may get stressed in the dry season.

dk

Don Kittelson

 

LIFE ON THE RIO NEGRO

03° 06' 07'' South 60° 01' 30'' West

Altitude 92 Meters / 308 feet above sea level

1,500 kms / 932 miles to the mouth of the Amazon River

 

Manaus, Amazonas, Brazil - A Cidade da Floresta

Where the world´s largest Tropical Rainforest embraces the Greatest Rivers in the World. .

82331.gif

 

Click here to visit Amazonas

amazonas2.jpg

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To all,The only USDA map I have ever seen goes only to Zone 11. This completely ignores Hawaii and other US Territories that would rate much higher.Iagree with Don,that Zones only matter realistically in those areas where their distinction applies to "what can be grown".Unfortunately until the USDA modifies it's criteria to make it meaningful to "what can be grown",it will continue as a dog that won't hunt.Beddy Bye.

What you look for is what is looking

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hi bubba your right zones of the sunset are much better. im usda zone 11, i have low temperature of 41F in 12 years, but not any thing like south florida (i go one time to miami and florida keys). cocos are not easy to grow in north baja california !

sonora desert plants and south africa plants grow very good here but most thes plants cant grow in south florida. but both places are usda zones 10-11. not good system the usda.

i find this link, very good, for map of all zones of the sunset in united states. i like explantations also for the zones and informations on the plants growing.

to bad the sunset has no good information of zones for my country mexico, or rest of the world.

in same page is zones usda

ZONES OF THE SUNSET FOR ALL UNITED STATES

TEMP. JAN. 21/10 C (69/50 F), AUG. 29/20 C (84/68 F). COASTAL DESERT, MOST DAYS MILD OR WARM, SUNNY AND DRY. YEARLY PRECIPITATION: 210 MM (8.2 INCHES). ZONE 11 NO FREEZES CLOSE TO THE OCEAN.

5845d02ceb988_3-copia.jpg.447ccc2a7cc4c6

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True, it is not the responsibility of the US government or taxpayer to support extension of the map beyond its territories. In view of the map's purpose, there is little point in extending it beyond the continental 48.

The map was devised more with farming/agriculture in mind. Don't think of the map as a tool for growing tropicals; this was never its intention. It was designed for annual crops and fruit trees. In this it excels. Tomatoes will get frosted at 32º and fruit trees will drop their leaves and go dormant in the fall. In this regard the map serves its purpose. The only shortcoming is the political desire to use short datasets and scare everyone into the global warming basket. :angry:

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Cristobal,Please understand that my argument with the USDA criteria,particularly as it applies to South Florida=10;Northern Baja Mexico/microclimates in S.Cal=11,should in no way be taken negatively.I am keenly aware of your work and methods and know you are pioneering ways to grow the elusive Coconut in your area with success.People on this Board as far away as Greece are using your methods to attempt to grow the elusive Coconut at Latitudes never dreamed of before.For this, your efforts can only be applauded.

I am sure your methods are also being used to successfully grow other tropicals in your area and S.Cal. We have seen recent evidence of this in the outstanding tropical specimens seen in the recent posts pertaining to Ken and Jeff's recent trip.

It is unfortunate that the mapping stops at the US border. Grants hopefully will be available for this work on a wider/worldwide basis.I simply hope that this impertinent criteria used by the USDA is abandoned and a new appropriate criteria is utilized.

Your efforts,on the other hand,should be widely recognized and appreciated by all. You are stretching the Limits!

What you look for is what is looking

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hi bubba, may be some people of the ips can make a zone map of the world like zones of the sunset for united states ?  

we can make it for ips, and more later share with the world. ips is many people in many countries. most in united states also many in australia south africa england europe mexico central, south america. make the map like the sunset only more for the palms.

all the informations on the internet easy to find only have to put together.

TEMP. JAN. 21/10 C (69/50 F), AUG. 29/20 C (84/68 F). COASTAL DESERT, MOST DAYS MILD OR WARM, SUNNY AND DRY. YEARLY PRECIPITATION: 210 MM (8.2 INCHES). ZONE 11 NO FREEZES CLOSE TO THE OCEAN.

5845d02ceb988_3-copia.jpg.447ccc2a7cc4c6

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Don-Licula,With all due respect,I disagree with your analysis of the USDA's purpose for the Zones.Specifically, the USDA explains it's purpose in pertinent part as follows:"All agriculturists ,environmentalist,horticulturists and home gardener's have one all abiding question about any plant they wish to introduce into their growing spaces.Will it flourish?"Additionally,the Indicator Plant Hardiness list of specimens for Zones promulgated by the USDA,particularly Zone 11 as cited by Cristobal,includes tropical specimens that all "flourish" in South Florida.Correspondingly, it is fair to state based upon the foregoing that the USDA Zone system is not merely about "crops"(a tomato cycle is about 90 days?)but in large order landscape varieties and where they "flourish".

What you look for is what is looking

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Cristobal, I agree completely.There are some Map Wizards on this Board.Armed with correct information and appropriate grant money,it seems the IPS would be the perfect vehicle to assist in the undertaking of this project.This is an "International"organization.I am particularly supportive if the USDA criteria is abandoned and Sunset is used.

What you look for is what is looking

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_zone

The Holdridge life zone classification has been popular.  

USDA did try to provide zones for Hawaii and perhaps Puerto Rico.

Fla. climate center: 100-119 days>85 F
USDA 1990 hardiness zone 9B
Current USDA hardiness zone 10a
4 km inland from Indian River; 27º N (equivalent to Brisbane)

Central Orlando's urban heat island may be warmer than us

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Heck, a sizable portion of the Bay Area way up here in northern CA has a zone 10 rating. We all know the vast differences between our zone 10 and south Florida's. Sunset's zonal maps are all around much more useable than the USDA map.

Jim in Los Altos, CA  SF Bay Area 37.34N- 122.13W- 190' above sea level

zone 10a/9b

sunset zone 16

300+ palms, 90+ species in the ground

Las Palmas Design

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Las Palmas Design & Associates

Elegant Homes and Gardens

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I have to agree the Sunset zones are much more usefull in determining what will grow where. Their criteria is based on what has a good chance of growing/living year round.

I once read a quotation by some famous botanist, and it could have been David Fairchild, that "the definition of the tropics is where coconuts grow." Perhaps, for Florida at least, the coconut could be used as a "marker" palm to chart where they grow over a period of 15 years or whatever time frame is determined to be best. We all know that where coconuts grow so can many other tropical palms. This might be the best way to chart the many micro-climates of S. and central Fla.

For California, I don't know what "marker" palm could be used, since we have a multitude of micro-climates, and there could be different micro-climates within the same city block depending on elevation, etc. Maybe Howea fosteriana could be used for Calif. since it thrives near the coast in S. Calif. and will even grow in the SF Bay area. Howeas tollerate a much broader range of temps. but are not much more hardly than a coconut. They are also widespread in Calif.

This is my brain strom for the day. Any suggestions, opinions?

Dick

Richard Douglas

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Dick,

You're right. I too think Howea would be a great marker palm for California. They're so tolerant of our cool winters, unlike coconuts, as well as our lack of night time heat virtually all year and their minimum survivable temperature is similar to a coconut's. Last winter, before the freeze, I had sixteen Howea forsteriana and one H. belmoriana in the ground and within a few weeks of the freeze I had lost five of the forsterianna, one of them with five solid feet of trunk. The rest, including the belmoriana have fully recovered and next time there's any threat of temps falling that way, I'm going to give those palms some protection. My biggest one was in flower when the freeze hit and luckily survived and I want to have it for many years.

Jim in Los Altos, CA  SF Bay Area 37.34N- 122.13W- 190' above sea level

zone 10a/9b

sunset zone 16

300+ palms, 90+ species in the ground

Las Palmas Design

Facebook Page

Las Palmas Design & Associates

Elegant Homes and Gardens

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