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Beccariophoenix alfredii


freakypalmguy
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I am afraid the news just gets nastier and nastier.    At this point it is clear that it will be 100% foliage lost, and we have 2 pulled spears.  I am thinking at best, only a 50% survival rate, and probably worse.

 

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In my post I sometimes express "my" opinion. Warning, it may differ from "your" opinion. If so, please do not feel insulted, just state your own if you wish. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or any other damages

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Sorry to hear that Keith.

5 year high 42.2C/108F (07/06/2018)--5 year low 2.3C/36F (12/27/2015)--Lowest recent/current winter: 3C/37F (2/24/2022)

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39 minutes ago, Tropicdoc said:

Glad I have some butia hybrids seeing that my beccariophoenix hopes have been crushed

Yep, for sure.   I'd put this about the same hardiness of P. robellini,maybe a tad more tender.

In my post I sometimes express "my" opinion. Warning, it may differ from "your" opinion. If so, please do not feel insulted, just state your own if you wish. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or any other damages

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It sounds like Beccariophoenix Alfredii may be much more tender than a Phoenix Robelleni.  Around here (Gainesville, northern Florida), I saw many phoenix robelleni survive our nasty 2010 freeze event.  They had brown fronds and may even have defoliated, but many seem to have come back -- if not most or all of them.  I know of a Syagrus Romanzoffiana that was killed while a couple of Phoenix Robelleni just down the street survived. 

I am not reluctant to plants things which I know are bud-hardy for my climate, even though they might not look the best after a freeze event.  Yet it sounds as though Beccariophoenix Alfredii is not bud hardy enough for zone 9a.     

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I'm still hoping to hear they come back from 24f. Based on this experience it sounds like it is a degree or two less hardy than R. regia, A. cunninghamiana, and K. oliviformis. 

Edited by RedRabbit

Westchase | 9b,  St. Petersburg | 9b,  Laurel | 10a

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OUCH

So much for hope springing eternal.

Let's keep our forum fun and friendly.

Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or lost profits or revenue, claims by third parties or for other similar costs, or any special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of my opinion or the use of this data. The accuracy or reliability of the data is not guaranteed or warranted in any way and I disclaim liability of any kind whatsoever, including, without limitation, liability for quality, performance, merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose arising out of the use, or inability to use my data. Other terms may apply.

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 1/23/2017, 7:33:34, _Keith said:

I am afraid the news just gets nastier and nastier.    At this point it is clear that it will be 100% foliage lost, and we have 2 pulled spears.  I am thinking at best, only a 50% survival rate, and probably worse.

 

Any signs of life?

Westchase | 9b,  St. Petersburg | 9b,  Laurel | 10a

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I think one of the four might be alive.   Probably won't know for sure till May.

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In my post I sometimes express "my" opinion. Warning, it may differ from "your" opinion. If so, please do not feel insulted, just state your own if you wish. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or any other damages

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Ouch. :(

Let's keep our forum fun and friendly.

Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or lost profits or revenue, claims by third parties or for other similar costs, or any special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of my opinion or the use of this data. The accuracy or reliability of the data is not guaranteed or warranted in any way and I disclaim liability of any kind whatsoever, including, without limitation, liability for quality, performance, merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose arising out of the use, or inability to use my data. Other terms may apply.

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On ‎1‎/‎24‎/‎2017‎ ‎5‎:‎35‎:‎48‎, Sandy Loam said:

It sounds like Beccariophoenix Alfredii may be much more tender than a Phoenix Robelleni.  Around here (Gainesville, northern Florida), I saw many phoenix robelleni survive our nasty 2010 freeze event.  They had brown fronds and may even have defoliated, but many seem to have come back -- if not most or all of them.  I know of a Syagrus Romanzoffiana that was killed while a couple of Phoenix Robelleni just down the street survived. 

I am not reluctant to plants things which I know are bud-hardy for my climate, even though they might not look the best after a freeze event.  Yet it sounds as though Beccariophoenix Alfredii is not bud hardy enough for zone 9a.     

Agreed. There are a few roebellini down the street that have minimal browning after 25 F this winter.

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Well, we have at least one winner, Livistona mariae x decipiens.  This thing was accidentally mowed and came back.  100% foliage loss in freeze, and is coming back even before the heat arrives.   Looks like we have a solid Zone 9a with this one.

IMG_1593.JPG

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In my post I sometimes express "my" opinion. Warning, it may differ from "your" opinion. If so, please do not feel insulted, just state your own if you wish. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or any other damages

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Keith, I have the same hybrid Livistona Mariae x Decipiens and I believe it came from the same source as yours too.  I am discouraged to hear about the foliage loss during your freeze this year.  I have had mine in the ground for over a year and have never experienced any damage, but it has never endured very low temperatures......yet, at least. It is the future that I am worried about.  I deliberately planted mine right out in the open in a potentially cold and very exposed location.

With both parents being cold-hardy palms, I expected the offspring to be quite cold-hardy as well.  What a surprise!  There are livistona decipiens/decora around here that tolerated the big 2009-2010 freeze without any problem at all, and they were right out in the open without any overhead tree canopy.
 

 

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On 3/3/2017, 11:48:32, Sandy Loam said:

Keith, I have the same hybrid Livistona Mariae x Decipiens and I believe it came from the same source as yours too.  I am discouraged to hear about the foliage loss during your freeze this year.  I have had mine in the ground for over a year and have never experienced any damage, but it has never endured very low temperatures......yet, at least. It is the future that I am worried about.  I deliberately planted mine right out in the open in a potentially cold and very exposed location.

With both parents being cold-hardy palms, I expected the offspring to be quite cold-hardy as well.  What a surprise!  There are livistona decipiens/decora around here that tolerated the big 2009-2010 freeze without any problem at all, and they were right out in the open without any overhead tree canopy.
 

 

Don't be disappointed yet.  Understand this is a very small palm, less than 12 inches, first year in the ground.   And on top of that it was mowed over mid year and had to grow its foliage back from that so everything was young and tender.  A few years from now I doubt it would have even noticed these freezes.

 

In my post I sometimes express "my" opinion. Warning, it may differ from "your" opinion. If so, please do not feel insulted, just state your own if you wish. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or any other damages

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  • 3 months later...
On 2/22/2017, 11:39:50, _Keith said:

I think one of the four might be alive.   Probably won't know for sure till May.

Did that one make it?

Westchase | 9b,  St. Petersburg | 9b,  Laurel | 10a

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Hey gang, I am new to the forum, but my  2 alfredii have been in the ground since the spring of 2014.  No canopy, however, I am protected by two story homes to the north and south.  These things grow like weeds!

Aloha nui loa!

IMG_0353.JPG

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Kekoanui!

Welcome to the forum!

See my PM (Private Message).

Let's keep our forum fun and friendly.

Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or lost profits or revenue, claims by third parties or for other similar costs, or any special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of my opinion or the use of this data. The accuracy or reliability of the data is not guaranteed or warranted in any way and I disclaim liability of any kind whatsoever, including, without limitation, liability for quality, performance, merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose arising out of the use, or inability to use my data. Other terms may apply.

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On 6/24/2017, 10:02:26, RedRabbit said:

Did that one make it?

Yes, one did survive and is recovering nicely.

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In my post I sometimes express "my" opinion. Warning, it may differ from "your" opinion. If so, please do not feel insulted, just state your own if you wish. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or any other damages

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On 6/28/2017, 10:48:56, _Keith said:

Yes, one did survive and is recovering nicely.

Awesome! :D

Westchase | 9b,  St. Petersburg | 9b,  Laurel | 10a

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  • 6 months later...

3.5 hours below freezing, absolute low of 28.7˚ F. No damage. Check out the bananas in the background. 

IMG_0654.thumb.jpg.4b918e45d814d8eb24763

 

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Keith 

Palmetto, Florida (10a) and Tampa, Florida (9b/10a)

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Very minor damage (roughly 3%) from 28f. Fantastic results, local coconuts are dead or severely damaged by comparison. 

Additional info can be found here: http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/55520-2018-freeze-in-central-florida/&do=findComment&comment=834723

 

Westchase | 9b,  St. Petersburg | 9b,  Laurel | 10a

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  • 1 year later...

Just read this whole thread and I cant come to a conclusion if its worth trying to grow in my 9a area. Whenever get real cold its almost always with rain so that doesn't seem like this palm especially when small can handle. @meteorologistpalmguy How did yours end up fairing did it make it after 2017 freeze ? Hoping it did as I really want to grow these =)

T J 

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7 hours ago, OC2Texaspalmlvr said:

Just read this whole thread and I cant come to a conclusion if its worth trying to grow in my 9a area. Whenever get real cold its almost always with rain so that doesn't seem like this palm especially when small can handle. @meteorologistpalmguy How did yours end up fairing did it make it after 2017 freeze ? Hoping it did as I really want to grow these =)

It won't make it.  Low twenties will definitely kill a small one and so will 12-24 hours at or below 28F with a heavy frost.  This information was relayed to me from a guy who did not follow my recommendations for protection and killed at least six three gallon ones

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8 hours ago, Steve in Florida said:

It won't make it.  Low twenties will definitely kill a small one and so will 12-24 hours at or below 28F with a heavy frost.  This information was relayed to me from a guy who did not follow my recommendations for protection and killed at least six three gallon ones

Well that's not great new haha At what size do these start to really gain there hardiness ? Or are these just more cold hardy then a real coconut ? I have no problem giving this palm protection while small but once if these gain size can they ever handle low 20s or is 24 degrees a definite death sentence

@_Keith How are yours doing or did they finally succumb to the cold ? You were growing yours under live oaks correct ?

T J 

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On 11/16/2019 at 2:53 PM, OC2Texaspalmlvr said:

Just read this whole thread and I cant come to a conclusion if its worth trying to grow in my 9a area. Whenever get real cold its almost always with rain so that doesn't seem like this palm especially when small can handle. @meteorologistpalmguy How did yours end up fairing did it make it after 2017 freeze ? Hoping it did as I really want to grow these =)

Mine were absolutely smoked by the mid 20s, so they stood no chance whatsoever during the freeze of a couple of years ago (got down to 15 here).  I had about 10 of these potted up and gave them all away because they stood no chance here.  Agree this is a 9B palm, and not 9a. 

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38 minutes ago, meteorologistpalmguy said:

Mine were absolutely smoked by the mid 20s, so they stood no chance whatsoever during the freeze of a couple of years ago (got down to 15 here).  I had about 10 of these potted up and gave them all away because they stood no chance here.  Agree this is a 9B palm, and not 9a. 

Well thats definitely what i kinda figured =/ I kinda figure if you can grow it then i should basically have less of a problem. That same winter we only got down to 20° unfortunately same freezing rain tho. 

T J 

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My small one froze to the ground but came back from 20 a few years ago. I think these are worth trying here if you're willing to protect them. I am viewing mine similar to Walt's coconut. I got one from Bo (meterologist) that is trucking along, but it's only seen last winter, which was pretty mild. I had a mango tree in the ground at the same time that only got mild frost burn and fruited over the summer.

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27 f totally exposed. About 6 feet tall. One bundled up with bungies but no cover had no damage. Other one has minimal burn maybe 10-15 percent.

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On 11/21/2019 at 8:20 PM, necturus said:

My small one froze to the ground but came back from 20 a few years ago. I think these are worth trying here if you're willing to protect them.

How many do you have growing now ? If yours made it past 2018 freeze we could have a chance then. 

T J 

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28 minutes ago, OC2Texaspalmlvr said:

How many do you have growing now ? If yours made it past 2018 freeze we could have a chance then. 

I have two right now. One that survived that freeze and another that was planted afterward. In the interest of full disclosure, I had another plant that died in that freeze. It was not very healthy and was planted late in the season. Additionally, it's worth noting that the plant that survived was still very small, and some argue that survival of acaulescent palms in hard freezes is not indicative of their hardiness once trunking. 

I still think it's worth trying, especially in warm 9a areas. Bo's area is a cold 9a on the border with 8b. We run much warmer than him.

The big, unanswered question is, will it make a difference once these start trunking? These get massive trunks just like Bismarckia. Will they be able to handle more once they put on some mass?

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So far from this thread this palm is definitely 9b at best. Can't take a frost without leaf damage and below 25° is fatal =/ Needs overhead protection for frost but needs full sun for growth ,what a quandary ..... 

T J 

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  • 2 weeks later...

I read this entire thread today.  I am blown away that nobody has posted serious success via pics of the Beccariophoenix Alfredii from the locations represented by the people posting.  All I have seen on this thread is tiny little seedlings trying to survive temps in the teens and low 20’s.  
 

This seems ridiculous for all Palms to survive those temps as seedlings.   
 The B Alfredii is found at an elevation of 3440 feet and at latitude of 20 degrees south.  This is a tropical palm tree.  

I consider myself an amateur meteorologist and study climate around the world.  My knowledge tells me the natural habitat of the B Alfredii is seasonal rain but mainly dry.  I think the roots may tap into the river it grows near.  

As far as freezes in its natural habitat, does anyone have any real information?   My guess is NO.

  Think about the Hawaiian islands which are located near the same latitude but North.  What grows at the 3000 foot elevation?  I think the cocos grow up to around the 1500 foot range but may not fruit?  I think Madagascar May be a good bit dryer at the same elevation which allows the temps to drop a bit more.   

My thought is the 3000 feet elevation and they dryness of the area,  the temps drop to the 40’s consistently in winter solstice and even the low 30’s but do to the elevation and dryness no frost!  

   Cocos Nucifera do not like lows is the 30’s and 40’s most nights in winter.  I think this is the difference between the two Palms.   When we read the B Alfredii is “COLD HARDY”,  I do not think we should think it can handle 20 degrees or 30 degrees at a given time.  I think it’s a palm that can handle night after night at 40 degrees where the coco cannot.  I hope my rant makes sense.    
 

I live in Phoenix and have a friend who owns a local nursery and has 100 or so B Alfredii that he has grown from very small plants, maybe a foot.  They have been in 24 gallon pots the last 5 years. I went to visit him last month as I hadn’t been there in a few years.  When I saw the growth I had to buy one.   It’s 8 feet in a pot and I will plant next to my pool in February.   For now it’s in my screed porch but it’s touching the 8 foot ceiling.  These Palms are awesome!   
    

132FDEAD-1432-484F-A603-35C4EA4E039C.jpeg

2A7E17AB-31E0-4803-9240-07E9ADA124CC.jpeg

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  • 3 weeks later...

I have a 8 foot specimen in Orlando that has been in the ground for probably 5 years. it looks great and has minimal protection accept for a small oak tree.  I believe that once the palms are over 5 feet they can handle sub 30 degree temps but I did lose several seedlings in a frost 6 yrs ago. They need to be protected when young and I would suggest some protection as adults. it remains to be seen if this palm can handle 20 degree weather in orlando with freezes and still come back. We get those every 10 yrs here in central florida but it is definitely more hardy than traditional coconuts. I will try and get a picture because it is at my rental property. 

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The posts by @wrigjef and @Equistar point out an important distinction between Beccariophoenix alfredii.  I have a small Beccariophoenix alfredii that is at the edge of some oak canopy.  It has not been through any temperatures below 36F currently, so I can't comment on survival below 30F.  What I can tell you is that when we get chilly temperatures in the mid-30s to low-40s, I do see some spotting on my Jamaican Tall coconut palms, but the fronds on the Becarriophoenix are still deep green with no spots.

@OC2Texaspalmlvr The graphic below shows how I have mine planted.  This placement seems to balance the light requirements for growth with the desirable effect of canopy to ward off frost during a radiational freeze.  That said, there are tons of them growing out in the open along the I-4 corridor.  Guess the jury is still out.  Time will tell.

201912311830_Beccariophoenix_placement.png

Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone (2012): 9b | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (1985, 1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a | 30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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Whatever their provenance/habitat, 30 degrees and wet does nothing to them.  They are probably a good bit hardier than that, but they laugh at 30 degrees completely out in the open, with frost.  No damage, despite no cover, ever.  I'm certainly no meteorologist, so just my experience about 6 years into growing them!

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Ben Rogers

On the border of Concord & Clayton in the East Bay hills - Elev 387 ft 37.95 °N, 121.94 °W

My back yard weather station: http://www.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/findweather/hdfForecast?query=37.954%2C-121.945&sp=KCACONCO37

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Just now, OC2Texaspalmlvr said:

@kinzyjr So what's the plan once your BA gets into the tree providing cover? 

Since the canopy is at ~40ft, I'll likely be on the other side of the grass at that point.  If not, I'll hire someone to trim the branches.  At that size it either won't need canopy protection or it will be exposed as not a good palm for Central Florida.  Either way, it was a good run. :)

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Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone (2012): 9b | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (1985, 1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a | 30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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2 minutes ago, kinzyjr said:

Since the canopy is at ~40ft,

Dang 40' that is some canopy lol. How would you rate its speed of growth ? Slower then a date palm ? 

T J 

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