TOP 10 Most Popular Hardy Palms (THE LIST)

[CascadiaPalms]

Okay, I actually did extensive research into this....I think I have nailed it, but it seems like there is always someone who has a completely different experience.  Anywho, this is my list.  This are just the main players...aka the most popular palms.

 

[ZPalms]

Is this list just survivability? because a few of these temperatures and the palm will look like toast most of the time.

[Dwarf Fan]

Can you just post the list I am not logging into YT to watch a video thanks.

Let me guess:

Sabal minor ‘McCurtain’ 

Rhapidophyllum hystrix

Sabal brazoriensis

Sabal birmingham

Nannorrhops ritchiana

Trachycarpus fortunei 

And maybe:

Med Fan

Phoenix canariensis

Jubaea

Butia

[Dwarf Fan]

Just watched not bad for a newbie you got the more common palms that are readily available. However…

California Fan Palm is NOT a “Cold Hardy” palm it should not be on the list…

Bizmarkia is also NOT bulletproof many. died here in Palmageddon’21 it should NOT be on the list either, NO away it is a top 10 contender.

Seriously NO Sabal minor on your list… 🫣

Sabal brazoriensis, Sabal birmingham & Sabal ‘Defuniak Springs’ are all more Cold Hardy than the standard Sabal palmetto FYI.

Seriously you should add Nannorrhops ritchiana it is way more cold Hardy than several on your video.

Welcome to Palm Talk.

[Harry’s Palms]

Nicely done! Fun to watch and common names makes it watchable for those that are not palm geeks , although some of us nerds prefer twisting our mouth to say the botanical names. I’m sure that took some effort to put together , welcome! Harry

[CascadiaPalms]

3 hours ago, Dwarf Fan said:

Just watched not bad for a newbie you got the more common palms that are readily available. However…

California Fan Palm is NOT a “Cold Hardy” palm it should not be on the list…

Bizmarkia is also NOT bulletproof many. died here in Palmageddon’21 it should NOT be on the list either, NO away it is a top 10 contender.

Seriously NO Sabal minor on your list… 🫣

Sabal brazoriensis, Sabal birmingham & Sabal ‘Defuniak Springs’ are all more Cold Hardy than the standard Sabal palmetto FYI.

Seriously you should add Nannorrhops ritchiana it is way more cold Hardy than several on your video.

Welcome to Palm Talk.

Haha thank you 😊 

you are definitely not wrong.

Yes, the Bismarck had some conflicting information after reading several reports that’s what I came up with but I definitely hear what you are saying.

[Dwarf Fan]

Great video, you are already more knowledgeable than many “experts” out there that are not on Palm Talk.

I like how you kept it short and to the point.

Trade out the Bizy for Sabal minor would be my biggest critique, realistically most people don’t have access to a N. ritchiana, so it would cover all the palms that most people should be able to find or order at a local nursery.

[Fusca]

8 hours ago, Dwarf Fan said:

California Fan Palm is NOT a “Cold Hardy” palm it should not be on the list…

🫣

Did you really mean that about Washingtonia filifera?  It's much cold hardier than W. robusta (Mexican Fan Palm).  I agree with the other statements - adding Livistona chinensis (Chinese Fan Palm) to Nannorrhops richiana (Mazari Palm) and Sabal minor (Dwarf Fan Palm) although I don't know how "popular" Nannorrhops is.  

@CascadiaPalms does popular mean well-liked or widely planted?  I assume "hardy" means cold hardy.  Bismarckia is extremely popular (well-liked and widely planted in some areas) and somewhat cold hardy (similar to a Queen Palm) but not as cold hardy as several others.

[Dwarf Fan]

34 minutes ago, Fusca said:

Did you really mean that about Washingtonia filifera?  It's much cold hardier than W. robusta (Mexican Fan Palm).  I agree with the other statements - adding Livistona chinensis (Chinese Fan Palm) to Nannorrhops richiana (Mazari Palm) and Sabal minor (Dwarf Fan Palm) although I don't know how "popular" Nannorrhops is.  

@CascadiaPalms does popular mean well-liked or widely planted?  I assume "hardy" means cold hardy.  Bismarckia is extremely popular (well-liked and widely planted in some areas) and somewhat cold hardy (similar to a Queen Palm) but not as cold hardy as several others.

If you can get a PURE Filifera sure but good luck the vast majority of everything I see in Texas is some type of Filibusta mutt with a FEW pure W. Robusta and a few (mostly?) pureish W. Filiferas scatted here and there.

I was under the impression it is not easy to get a PURE Filifera in most states outside of Southern California.

Most Nursery people I have spoken with just toss around the Mexican or California Fan palm name willy nilly with no consideration if the Palm is actually a Robusta or Filifera or a Hybrid.

I haven’t even heard the term “Filibusta” used outside of Palm Talk. Most people know next to nothing about Palms outside of this forum in my experience.

[Fusca]

1 hour ago, Dwarf Fan said:

If you can get a PURE Filifera sure but good luck the vast majority of everything I see in Texas is some type of Filibusta mutt with a FEW pure W. Robusta and a few (mostly?) pureish W. Filiferas scatted here and there.

I was under the impression it is not easy to get a PURE Filifera in most states outside of Southern California.

Most Nursery people I have spoken with just toss around the Mexican or California Fan palm name willy nilly with no consideration if the Palm is actually a Robusta or Filifera or a Hybrid.

I haven’t even heard the term “Filibusta” used outside of Palm Talk. Most people know next to nothing about Palms outside of this forum in my experience.

Yes, exactly, I agree with all of this.  My question was about why you said that filifera aren't cold hardy.  Maybe it shouldn't be on his list because of lack of availability (not popular) but it's certainly cold hardy.  More cold hardy than filibusta and robusta.  That's why I asked the original poster about what he meant by "popular".  Based on what we saw with Palmageddon I would think that filifera are popular in the sense that many in north and central Texas would prefer to plant them vs. robusta or filibusta but pure filifera aren't easy to find.

[CascadiaPalms]

16 hours ago, ZPalms said:

Is this list just survivability? because a few of these temperatures and the palm will look like toast most of the time.

Definitely survivability.  IMO, this is the litmus test "last stance" level to where these specific palms can survive or not.

10 hours ago, Harry’s Palms said:

Nicely done! Fun to watch and common names makes it watchable for those that are not palm geeks , although some of us nerds prefer twisting our mouth to say the botanical names. I’m sure that took some effort to put together , welcome! Harry

Thank you, I hope to post more top 10 videos in the coming days.  Building my channel to be truly and only palm specific in helping others with palm interest/knowledge.

7 hours ago, Dwarf Fan said:

Great video, you are already more knowledgeable than many “experts” out there that are not on Palm Talk.

I like how you kept it short and to the point.

Trade out the Bizy for Sabal minor would be my biggest critique, realistically most people don’t have access to a N. ritchiana, so it would cover all the palms that most people should be able to find or order at a local nursery.

Are you referring to this video, or did you watch any other videos?  Appreciate the feedback and yes, I like short and to the point videos.  Thank you again Dwarf Fan.  Cheers.

[CascadiaPalms]

2 hours ago, Fusca said:

Did you really mean that about Washingtonia filifera?  It's much cold hardier than W. robusta (Mexican Fan Palm).  I agree with the other statements - adding Livistona chinensis (Chinese Fan Palm) to Nannorrhops richiana (Mazari Palm) and Sabal minor (Dwarf Fan Palm) although I don't know how "popular" Nannorrhops is.  

@CascadiaPalms does popular mean well-liked or widely planted?  I assume "hardy" means cold hardy.  Bismarckia is extremely popular (well-liked and widely planted in some areas) and somewhat cold hardy (similar to a Queen Palm) but not as cold hardy as several others.

Great question.  The cold hardy list is obviously quite long.  If I went with that and that only...only #1, #2 #3 (roughly) on my list would remain.  I found many species that could survive down to 10F-15F.  So the basis for "popular" is widely planted and well-known.  Not so much desired per se.  Thank you for the question.

[Dwarf Fan]

1 hour ago, Fusca said:

Yes, exactly, I agree with all of this.  My question was about why you said that filifera aren't cold hardy.  Maybe it shouldn't be on his list because of lack of availability (not popular) but it's certainly cold hardy.  More cold hardy than filibusta and robusta.  That's why I asked the original poster about what he meant by "popular".  Based on what we saw with Palmageddon I would think that filifera are popular in the sense that many in north and central Texas would prefer to plant them vs. robusta or filibusta but pure filifera aren't easy to find.

Actually, I said:

 

11 hours ago, Dwarf Fan said:

California Fan Palm is NOT a “Cold Hardy” palm it should not be on the list…

To which I added this context:

2 hours ago, Dwarf Fan said:

If you can get a PURE Filifera sure but good luck the vast majority of everything I see in Texas is some type of Filibusta mutt with a FEW pure W. Robusta and a few (mostly?) pureish W. Filiferas scatted here and there.

I was under the impression it is not easy to get a PURE Filifera in most states outside of Southern California.

Most Nursery people I have spoken with just toss around the Mexican or California Fan palm name willy nilly with no consideration if the Palm is actually a Robusta or Filifera or a Hybrid.

I haven’t even heard the term “Filibusta” used outside of Palm Talk. Most people know next to nothing about Palms outside of this forum in my experience.

If I wasn’t clear IF you can get a PURE Filifera sure they are definitely Cold Hardy.

But the OP’s video never mentions “Filifera” it refers to “California Fan Palms” as Cold Hardy (heck he even has Mexican Fan Palms in his Top 10) I feel that this is a recipe for disaster and disappointment for the “normies” watching on YouTube.

Full disclosure I am originally from San Diego and the Filifera native habitat is located in a part of the county that gets much colder than the coastal zones where they are found next to pure Robustas. 

But even in San Diego it’s just a Mexican/California Fan palm to the general public.

Often derided by local Nurserymen as the “weed of Palm trees”.

I know and you know Jon, but some people are still gonna end up with “Telephone poles” in their yard after watching that YouTube vid. 😉

[Dwarf Fan]

1 hour ago, CascadiaPalms said:

Definitely survivability.  IMO, this is the litmus test "last stance" level to where these specific palms can survive or not.

Thank you, I hope to post more top 10 videos in the coming days.  Building my channel to be truly and only palm specific in helping others with palm interest/knowledge.

Are you referring to this video, or did you watch any other videos?  Appreciate the feedback and yes, I like short and to the point videos.  Thank you again Dwarf Fan.  Cheers.

I was referring to that video only. Yes I like the short duration and staying on topic and not meandering and getting off into the woods.

[CascadiaPalms]

1 hour ago, Dwarf Fan said:

Actually, I said:

 

To which I added this context:

If I wasn’t clear IF you can get a PURE Filifera sure they are definitely Cold Hardy.

But the OP’s video never mentions “Filifera” it refers to “California Fan Palms” as Cold Hardy (heck he even has Mexican Fan Palms in his Top 10) I feel that this is a recipe for disaster and disappointment for the “normies” watching on YouTube.

Full disclosure I am originally from San Diego and the Filifera native habitat is located in a part of the county that gets much colder than the coastal zones where they are found next to pure Robustas. 

But even in San Diego it’s just a Mexican/California Fan palm to the general public.

Often derided by local Nurserymen as the “weed of Palm trees”.

I know and you know Jon, but some people are still gonna end up with “Telephone poles” in their yard after watching that YouTube vid. 😉

Well… to be fair, compared to ALL palm species in the world, filifera and robusta ARE considered on the cold hardy end. It doesn’t mean they can ride out a blizzard outright.  But a palm tree is a generally tropical plant.  So being a cold hardy tropical plant doesn’t mean you’ll survive a winter in Minnesota, it just means you can survive parts of the temperate zone which is colder than the tropical zone.  Hence why the term “cold” can be subjective, it just depends on what you are comparing it to.

[jwitt]

Some of the palm temperatures seem off from what is known for lethality. 

CIDP for example. 20f

[CascadiaPalms]

2 hours ago, jwitt said:

Some of the palm temperatures seem off from what is known for lethality. 

CIDP for example. 20f

An earlier poster asked that same question, these are temperatures the palms could not survive below.

[jwitt]

8 hours ago, CascadiaPalms said:

An earlier poster asked that same question, these are temperatures the palms could not survive below.

Filifera=15f

CIDP=20f

Temperatures are way off. Infact these  2 palms are grown in areas that see lower than your reported temperatures yearly(on average), long term, unprotected. 

 

[CascadiaPalms]

5 hours ago, jwitt said:

Filifera=15f

CIDP=20f

Temperatures are way off. Infact these  2 palms are grown in areas that see lower than your reported temperatures yearly(on average), long term, unprotected. 

 

ironically, the CIDP was the most difficult in getting the sources to all line up.  It begins to suffer severe frond damage at 20f that may or may not allow the palm to survive.  Many sources were stating that.  But I do hear what you are saying.

[RockyLamar]

pretty accurate imo

[jwitt]

So it's bogus. Or at least unsupported data.  A SWAG if you will. 

[UK_Palms]

@CascadiaPalms Does Portland, Oregon not have any CIDP's at all...? I thought by now maybe some would be discovered there inside the main UHI, or small ones would start gaining quite a bit of size by now, similar to what has happened with all the London ones over the past few decades. And I don't mean small, recently planted 2-3 year old specimens. I'm asking about 10-20 year old established ones that are gaining a lot of size. The same could be said about Washingtonia as well.

Obviously CIDP's are pretty damn hardy and I'm pretty sure Portland doesn't see anything below 20/21F most winters. And a 'bad' winter only see's what... 17/18F maybe once every few years there? Hardly proper CIDP killing temps in Portland from what I have seen. So where are the CIDP's? Surely in sheltered back yards, close to houses, they would be thriving. Especially with your warm and sunny summers for all that decent recovery. There has to be some around Portland!? 🤔

A lot of the ones in the London suburbs see 20-25F most winters, but many of them are at a size where they don't really burn now (smaller ones burn at 21F compared to 18F for bigger specimens, hence the 20F average). So they only get defoliated in events like 2010 and 2018 here. And that's in the suburbs where it gets colder. The Met Office station at St James Park in central London hasn't actually gone below -5.3C / 22F since 1987 and that station is in an open park as well. Hence why the inner London CIDP's all look so pristine. But even in the colder outer suburbs of London, there are still CIDP there. Ones that would have survived maybe 15F in the December 2010 event. So where are Portlands? 

Portland is quite a bit wetter annually than London (23 inches vs 36 inches) but Portland also gets 700 hours more sunshine annually, which makes up for it being wetter overall and aids photosynthesis as well as moisture evaporation levels. I don't understand why there would be fairly large CIDP and Washingtonia in Londons suburbs, but none even in Portlands main central UHI zone...? For some reason it appears they are less hardy over there. 🤔

[Chester B]

There are no CIDPS in Portland and it’s not for lack of trying. The combo of damp cold kills them. On paper they should survive but they don’t. You have to go about halfway down the coast to see them around Coos Bay. Inland you need to be down near Eugene to have some luck. It’s drier there and they don’t get the outflow winds. 

[CascadiaPalms]

8 hours ago, jwitt said:

So it's bogus. Or at least unsupported data.  A SWAG if you will. 

well, you know how it is.  You talk to 20 different people, 10 will tell you something very similar, 5 is something close and the other 5 you scratch your head but completely don't debunk what they are telling you.  The more you know, the less you know.

5 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

@CascadiaPalms Does Portland, Oregon not have any CIDP's at all...? I thought by now maybe some would be discovered there inside the main UHI, or small ones would start gaining quite a bit of size by now, similar to what has happened with all the London ones over the past few decades. And I don't mean small, recently planted 2-3 year old specimens. I'm asking about 10-20 year old established ones that are gaining a lot of size. The same could be said about Washingtonia as well.

Obviously CIDP's are pretty damn hardy and I'm pretty sure Portland doesn't see anything below 20/21F most winters. And a 'bad' winter only see's what... 17/18F maybe once every few years there? Hardly proper CIDP killing temps in Portland from what I have seen. So where are the CIDP's? Surely in sheltered back yards, close to houses, they would be thriving. Especially with your warm and sunny summers for all that decent recovery. There has to be some around Portland!? 🤔

A lot of the ones in the London suburbs see 20-25F most winters, but many of them are at a size where they don't really burn now (smaller ones burn at 21F compared to 18F for bigger specimens, hence the 20F average). So they only get defoliated in events like 2010 and 2018 here. And that's in the suburbs where it gets colder. The Met Office station at St James Park in central London hasn't actually gone below -5.3C / 22F since 1987 and that station is in an open park as well. Hence why the inner London CIDP's all look so pristine. But even in the colder outer suburbs of London, there are still CIDP there. Ones that would have survived maybe 15F in the December 2010 event. So where are Portlands? 

Portland is quite a bit wetter annually than London (23 inches vs 36 inches) but Portland also gets 700 hours more sunshine annually, which makes up for it being wetter overall and aids photosynthesis as well as moisture evaporation levels. I don't understand why there would be fairly large CIDP and Washingtonia in Londons suburbs, but none even in Portlands main central UHI zone...? For some reason it appears they are less hardy over there. 🤔

Most of Portland is in a 9A.  Go figure, right?  Our winters are absolutely brutal with the amount of rain and number of cloudy days.  It doesn't get "that cold" but with the rain and crisp/cool temps, the CIDP wouldn't get a break.  It actually gets quite hot in the summer now.  We use to average 79 F high temps, now it's around 83-84 F.  And historically we've averaged 12 days above 90F and every summer we smash that with at least 25 to 30.  It's now considered abnormal to be the old normal.

4 hours ago, Chester B said:

There are no CIDPS in Portland and it’s not for lack of trying. The combo of damp cold kills them. On paper they should survive but they don’t. You have to go about halfway down the coast to see them around Coos Bay. Inland you need to be down near Eugene to have some luck. It’s drier there and they don’t get the outflow winds. 

Yea, I still don't see how they could survive in a place like Brookings?  They obviously probably exist there in small doses, but looking at just December alone, 14 inches of rain and 19 days of precip.  Yikes.  It is warmer though Hi 53 L 42.  But the only West of the Cascades city that I think would be a better attempt, is Medford.  Less rainfall and number of rain days in winter.  But yea, it's tough.

[UK_Palms]

10 hours ago, Chester B said:

There are no CIDPS in Portland and it’s not for lack of trying. The combo of damp cold kills them. On paper they should survive but they don’t. You have to go about halfway down the coast to see them around Coos Bay. Inland you need to be down near Eugene to have some luck. It’s drier there and they don’t get the outflow winds. 

Well London has the same damp-cold really, although winter rainfall is a bit higher in Portland. But temperatures are fairly similar. However Portland’s winter rainfall is comparable with other places in southwest England anyway such as Cornwall and Devon, yet CIDP grow fine there. So it doesn’t really make sense.

 

6 hours ago, CascadiaPalms said:

Most of Portland is in a 9A.  Go figure, right?  Our winters are absolutely brutal with the amount of rain and number of cloudy days.  It doesn't get "that cold" but with the rain and crisp/cool temps, the CIDP wouldn't get a break.  It actually gets quite hot in the summer now.  We use to average 79 F high temps, now it's around 83-84 F.  And historically we've averaged 12 days above 90F and every summer we smash that with at least 25 to 30.  It's now considered abnormal to be the old normal.

Your winters are not brutal by any stretch, especially if most of Portland is 9a as you claim. CIDP’s will definitely struggle in a cool/wet 8b like my location (unlike in a cool/dry 8b) however they should do fine in a cool/wet 9a zone. The London suburbs are 9a and they obviously have CIDP’s growing there aplenty with even less sun than Portland and only a little bit less rain in winter (but winters have become very wet in recent years). Central London is a cool/wet 9b and obviously has no problems with CIDP there. Again Portland also has the added benefit of very warm, sunny summers that allow better recovery than say in London. There is much more sun in general year-round in Portland. So there are pro’s and cons to both locations.

Is it more due to say once a decade freezes whacking out any CIDP’s from say 10F nights with lots of snow, or is it literally a case of the CIDP’s just won’t come through a bog standard Portland winter and are killed off by wet/cold say every other year…? Because it doesn’t make sense how there are so many thriving in London’s 9a suburbs, yet there are none in the 9a parts of central Portland. Why would they appear hardier in southern England, compared to the PNW…??? 🤔

[PaPalmTrees]

On 11/23/2024 at 1:33 AM, CascadiaPalms said:

Okay, I actually did extensive research into this....I think I have nailed it, but it seems like there is always someone who has a completely different experience.  Anywho, this is my list.  This are just the main players...aka the most popular palms.

 

you forgot about Sabal minors./sabal hybrids

[jwitt]

On 11/22/2024 at 11:33 PM, CascadiaPalms said:

Okay, I actually did extensive research into this....I think I have nailed it, but it seems like there is always someone who has a completely different experience.  Anywho, this is my list.  This are just the main players...aka the most popular palms.

 

Can you provide evidence of CIDP dying at 20f and filifera at 15f?

[PaPalmTrees]

If I remade the list here's mine

1 Rhapidophyllum hystrix aka needle palm 

2 Sabal ‘McCurtain 

3 sabal minors 

4 Sabal Minor (Knoxville)

5 Sabal brazoriensis

6 Sabal birmingham

7 Nannorrhops ritchiana

8 Trachycarpus fortunei 

9 Sabal ‘Defuniak Springs

10 Butia Capitata

YES i  know I could have organised them a little better but I didn't have time.

[UK_Palms]

49 minutes ago, jwitt said:

Can you provide evidence of CIDP dying at 20f and filifera at 15f?

To be fair, my Filifera died after one of the mildest winters on record here. I only had about 24-25F as a winter minimum but it was also very wet too and may not have had the best drainage. Anyway the spear pulled right out and never regrew.

It goes to show Filifera isn’t massively hardy in wet-cold winters. At least not at a small size anyway. I know much bigger Filifera’s have taken around 14-15F in February 2018 over here and basically had no damage from it. So maybe size is everything.

Smaller Filifera can and will croak at 25F in wet-cool winters, especially if drainage isn’t on point. I guess it’s more to do with the duration of the wet-cold, rather than the absolute minimum, which is what got mine.

[CascadiaPalms]

2 hours ago, PaPalmTrees said:

you forgot about Sabal minors./sabal hybrids

One that I for sure regret not putting on that was a sabal minor, agreed.  It is more popular than I thought.

1 hour ago, jwitt said:

Can you provide evidence of CIDP dying at 20f and filifera at 15f?

The internet.  Lots of examples.  I've also talked to a lot of palm growers over the years.  That is simply the number I came up with.  Could these maybe do better/worse by a degree or two?  Of course.  Depends on humidity, wind protection, location, etc....a lot of factors.

1 hour ago, PaPalmTrees said:

If I remade the list here's mine

1 Rhapidophyllum hystrix aka needle palm 

2 Sabal ‘McCurtain 

3 sabal minors 

4 Sabal Minor (Knoxville)

5 Sabal brazoriensis

6 Sabal birmingham

7 Nannorrhops ritchiana

8 Trachycarpus fortunei 

9 Sabal ‘Defuniak Springs

10 Butia Capitata

YES i  know I could have organised them a little better but I didn't have time.

Good list!

1 hour ago, UK_Palms said:

To be fair, my Filifera died after one of the mildest winters on record here. I only had about 24-25F as a winter minimum but it was also very wet too and may not have had the best drainage. Anyway the spear pulled right out and never regrew.

It goes to show Filifera isn’t massively hardy in wet-cold winters. At least not at a small size anyway. I know much bigger Filifera’s have taken around 14-15F in February 2018 over here and basically had no damage from it. So maybe size is everything.

Smaller Filifera can and will croak at 25F in wet-cool winters, especially if drainage isn’t on point. I guess it’s more to do with the duration of the wet-cold, rather than the absolute minimum, which is what got mine.

Agree.  Cali fan palms do not like wet cold!

[jwitt]

2 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

To be fair, my Filifera died after one of the mildest winters on record here. I only had about 24-25F as a winter minimum but it was also very wet too and may not have had the best drainage. Anyway the spear pulled right out and never regrew.

It goes to show Filifera isn’t massively hardy in wet-cold winters. At least not at a small size anyway. I know much bigger Filifera’s have taken around 14-15F in February 2018 over here and basically had no damage from it. So maybe size is everything.

Smaller Filifera can and will croak at 25F in wet-cool winters, especially if drainage isn’t on point. I guess it’s more to do with the duration of the wet-cold, rather than the absolute minimum, which is what got mine.

So will cactus. Has nothing to do with cold hardiness.

Filifera seedlings(I repeat, seedlings)have been documented to survive -5f.

[Chester B]

5 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

Is it more due to say once a decade freezes whacking out any CIDP’s from say 10F nights with lots of snow, or is it literally a case of the CIDP’s just won’t come through a bog standard Portland winter and are killed off by wet/cold say every other year…? Because it doesn’t make sense how there are so many thriving in London’s 9a suburbs, yet there are none in the 9a parts of central Portland. Why would they appear hardier in southern England, compared to the PNW…??? 🤔

Portland is 9A.  They will struggle to survive just about any winter, even though many winters there are only a few nights in the upper 20s.  They don't live, that's just a fact.  Why can they make it in the UK with less summer heat, I don't know.

I had two established needle palms damaged at 19F.  That should never happen on paper, but it di.  However every Trachy (36 of them) were unblemished and many zone 6 plants were damaged and defoliated.   Two out of seven needle palms were damaged and all the Sabal minor were unblemished.  Everyone's climate is different,  and the plants will tell you what you can grow.

I grew about 25 different palm species in the ground in Portland.  The two hardiest by a long short were Trachycarpus Fortunei (including waggie) and Sabal minor in that climate.  And for the record Myself and many others believe Sabal minor to be the most cold hardy palm, ahead of the needle palm.

[ahosey01]

On 11/23/2024 at 4:53 PM, Dwarf Fan said:

If you can get a PURE Filifera sure but good luck the vast majority of everything I see in Texas is some type of Filibusta mutt with a FEW pure W. Robusta and a few (mostly?) pureish W. Filiferas scatted here and there.

I was under the impression it is not easy to get a PURE Filifera in most states outside of Southern California.

Most Nursery people I have spoken with just toss around the Mexican or California Fan palm name willy nilly with no consideration if the Palm is actually a Robusta or Filifera or a Hybrid.

I haven’t even heard the term “Filibusta” used outside of Palm Talk. Most people know next to nothing about Palms outside of this forum in my experience.

In Arizona anyways most "California" and "Mexican" fan palms are at least the W. filifera phenotype and also there are multiple seeding wild groves of pure filifera in the state where people collect seed.  Many people - myself at my old house and several of my neighbors - have "pure" or mostly pure filiferas in AZ.

And they are absolutely outrageously cold hardy.  There are some big, old specimens in Sedona, AZ and Albuquerqe, NM and both of these are like zone 7b at a mile high elevation.  Not sure what you were meaning when you said a California fan palm is not a cold hardy palm.

[jwitt]

Non acclimated seedlings survive up to 0f.  Another study showed -5f. 

[Chester B]

Just as a big FYI to @CascadiaPalms there is an entire subfolder on here "Freeze Damage Data" that shows observations over the years for most of the palm species grown.

[CascadiaPalms]

6 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

Well London has the same damp-cold really, although winter rainfall is a bit higher in Portland. But temperatures are fairly similar. However Portland’s winter rainfall is comparable with other places in southwest England anyway such as Cornwall and Devon, yet CIDP grow fine there. So it doesn’t really make sense.

 

Your winters are not brutal by any stretch, especially if most of Portland is 9a as you claim. CIDP’s will definitely struggle in a cool/wet 8b like my location (unlike in a cool/dry 8b) however they should do fine in a cool/wet 9a zone. The London suburbs are 9a and they obviously have CIDP’s growing there aplenty with even less sun than Portland and only a little bit less rain in winter (but winters have become very wet in recent years). Central London is a cool/wet 9b and obviously has no problems with CIDP there. Again Portland also has the added benefit of very warm, sunny summers that allow better recovery than say in London. There is much more sun in general year-round in Portland. So there are pro’s and cons to both locations.

Is it more due to say once a decade freezes whacking out any CIDP’s from say 10F nights with lots of snow, or is it literally a case of the CIDP’s just won’t come through a bog standard Portland winter and are killed off by wet/cold say every other year…? Because it doesn’t make sense how there are so many thriving in London’s 9a suburbs, yet there are none in the 9a parts of central Portland. Why would they appear hardier in southern England, compared to the PNW…??? 🤔

I really think the continuous stretches of damp, cloudy, drizzle, and cold rain from November to February....really do a factor. 

But I guess the real question is, what is causing them not to do well?  Like Chester has mentioned, they'll struggle regardless in a 8b/9a zone, but let's just say the gold standard of a CIDP surviving of 9a/8b zone is an eventless winter.  So let's assume everyday is near H 52 L 35 (with a few nights in the mid-upper 20's) and with equal combo of sunny, cloudy and rainy days.  Precip is 2.5 inches for a month.  What exactly is the outlier to which the CIDP says...."I don't like having excess of factor X"

59 minutes ago, Chester B said:

Portland is 9A.  They will struggle to survive just about any winter, even though many winters there are only a few nights in the upper 20s.  They don't live, that's just a fact.  Why can they make it in the UK with less summer heat, I don't know.

I had two established needle palms damaged at 19F.  That should never happen on paper, but it di.  However every Trachy (36 of them) were unblemished and many zone 6 plants were damaged and defoliated.   Two out of seven needle palms were damaged and all the Sabal minor were unblemished.  Everyone's climate is different,  and the plants will tell you what you can grow.

I grew about 25 different palm species in the ground in Portland.  The two hardiest by a long short were Trachycarpus Fortunei (including waggie) and Sabal minor in that climate.  And for the record Myself and many others believe Sabal minor to be the most cold hardy palm, ahead of the needle palm.

Trachycarpus Fortunei is just a tough SOB.  I am convinced they were built for a PNW winter.  Endless dreary clouds and pounding rain for 3 months.  These things were battled tested in the worst of PNW winters and I swear they came out looking stronger than ever in April.

[UK_Palms]

2 hours ago, CascadiaPalms said:

One that I for sure regret not putting on that was a sabal minor, agreed.  It is more popular than I thought.

The internet.  Lots of examples.  I've also talked to a lot of palm growers over the years.  That is simply the number I came up with.  Could these maybe do better/worse by a degree or two?  Of course.  Depends on humidity, wind protection, location, etc....a lot of factors.

Good list!

Agree.  Cali fan palms do not like wet cold!

 

This Filifera growing about 30 miles east of London would have took a load of wet-cold over the years. But I reckon the drainage is likely very good there and ultimately that was the difference between life and death when the pam was at a small size.

However wet-cold and drainage definitely seem to be much less of an issue once Filifera get to a bigger size, becoming hardier and also quicker to replenish any damage. They become much more hungry for irrigation and just tougher in general at say 10 foot plus.

This image is actually from June 2024 after we experienced the wettest 18 month period on record for London and UK (Oct 2022 - Mar 2024). 100% that period saw way more rainfall than Portland saw, or has ever seen maybe. Last winter in general was pretty wet, especially during December and February. So this Filifera held up pretty well given the wettest 18 month period on record...

[Dwarf Fan]

2 hours ago, ahosey01 said:

In Arizona anyways most "California" and "Mexican" fan palms are at least the W. filifera phenotype and also there are multiple seeding wild groves of pure filifera in the state where people collect seed.  Many people - myself at my old house and several of my neighbors - have "pure" or mostly pure filiferas in AZ.

And they are absolutely outrageously cold hardy.  There are some big, old specimens in Sedona, AZ and Albuquerqe, NM and both of these are like zone 7b at a mile high elevation.  Not sure what you were meaning when you said a California fan palm is not a cold hardy palm.

See my later post to clarify, yes W. filifera is COLD HARDY. But when the general public or nursery people outside Palm centric ones refer to California or Mexican Fan palms they usually toss those names around with no care if they are actually a W. robusta or W. filifera or as is most common apparently here in Texas a filibusta hybrid. (I cannot speak to AZ Washys as I have never lived there). But the Anza-Borrego portion of San Diego with native filifera groves has seen a low of 20F. I am guessing Arizona and New Mexico filifera will be subjected to even colder record low temperatures, much like the 29 Palms grove.

My Washingtonia knowledge is a bit deeper than my Phoenix knowledge, please don’t think I ride the short bus on Washingtonia knowledge because of my gross ignorance of the cespitose nature of the Phoenix genus. Thanks Adam. 🙏 

👇

On 11/23/2024 at 7:51 PM, Dwarf Fan said:

Actually, I said:

To which I added this context:

If I wasn’t clear IF you can get a PURE Filifera sure they are definitely Cold Hardy.

But the OP’s video never mentions “Filifera” it refers to “California Fan Palms” as Cold Hardy (heck he even has Mexican Fan Palms in his Top 10) I feel that this is a recipe for disaster and disappointment for the “normies” watching on YouTube.

Full disclosure I am originally from San Diego and the Filifera native habitat is located in a part of the county that gets much colder than the coastal zones where they are found next to pure Robustas. 

But even in San Diego it’s just a Mexican/California Fan palm to the general public.

Often derided by local Nurserymen as the “weed of Palm trees”.

I know and you know Jon, but some people are still gonna end up with “Telephone poles” in their yard after watching that YouTube vid. 😉

[UK_Palms]

2 hours ago, jwitt said:

So will cactus. Has nothing to do with cold hardiness.

Filifera seedlings(I repeat, seedlings)have been documented to survive -5f.

 

Yes, me and you have had a few back and forths regarding hardiness and temps. I am in agreement with you though.

Mature Filifera can withstand -10F to -15F in 'warm', dry and sunny desert/semi-arid environments, providing the cold blast is quite brief (a few days) and not prolonged (1-2 weeks). Filifera's obviously sailed though the Alamogordo event in 2011.

Much like CIDP, I think Filifera's true bud hardiness is still not fully known either. They could even come back from -20F if it is brief in areas with warm annual temps and extreme solar heating, such as in New Mexico. They are even hardier than previously thought... in the right envionment/climate.

[jwitt]

@UK_Palms CIDP's seemed to survive the extended cloudy deep freeze in 2021 in Texas.  Very, very high percentage.  All the way up to and including N Texas . 

Not just "short freezes. 

If 20f is their lethal limit as claimed by the OP, they would not grow long-term along the US gulf coast.  Period. 

But they do.