Chlorotic Queen?

[Than]

I have this Queen palm in a pot, waiting to be potted in the ground when the local council finally gives me water.. 

Its been repotted into a much bigger pot less than a year ago, with manure in it. I water every day in the summer and fertilizer monthly. I also added iron recently. Yet it looks chlorotic. @Phoenikakias who gave it to me kept it in shade. In my place it's in the sun so it could be that but then again it's been more than 9 months since I put it there. Is there smth wrong with it?

 

[Phoenikakias]

Did you use manure (and what kind, from sheep perhaps?) as potting medium???!!! Sheep manure starts acidic and ends up alkaline and root suffocating (when decomposed), notwithstanding risk of root burn. As a general rule never use manure or compost in soil mixes (only surface dressing), you are gonna regret it later. First check the soil pH.

[Phoenikakias]

What kind of iron did you apply?

[Than]

2 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

Did you use manure (and what kind, from sheep perhaps?) as potting medium???!!! Sheep manure starts acidic and ends up alkaline and root suffocating (when decomposed), notwithstanding risk of root burn. As a general rule never use manure or compost in soil mixes (only surface dressing), you are gonna regret it later. First check the soil pH.

Oh dear. I always add a bit of manure in my mixes! 😱 I normally use worm manure if I can get hold of it, or else sheep. I used sheep manure for the syagrus I think... not too much though, like max. 15% of the mix.

As for iron I used a bit of liquid iron mixed in water about a week ago.

[Harry’s Palms]

Around here Syagrus R . are very good about being transplanted. If leaching the soil doesn’t work you can alway just repot with different soil. Harry

[Than]

6 hours ago, Harry’s Palms said:

Around here Syagrus R . are very good about being transplanted. If leaching the soil doesn’t work you can alway just repot with different soil. Harry

Yeah I can always shake off some of the pot soil when transplanting to the ground.

[Phoenikakias]

18 hours ago, Than said:

Yeah I can always shake off some of the pot soil when transplanting to the ground.

Don't give up @Than! Queen palm is thankfully a forgiving and fast growing sp. I planted mine in the most unfavorable conditions plus some grave mistakes in care taking and in size smaller than yours, here I am now waiting for two inflorescences.

[Than]

Oh I don't worry. I don't believe it's gonna die simply because 10% of the medium is manure. I will shake some off when I transplant in the ground. 

 

[sonoranfans]

I learned the hard way a long time ago not to put manure in potted palm soil.  Too much nitrogen all at once makes the soil basic and it doesnt drain so well.  Both of these issues cause chlorosis, but your palm doesnt look so bad.  If you start to see continued degradation I would repot it with new soil.  Palms in pots want high drainage because pots have tiny drain holes.

[Than]

2 hours ago, sonoranfans said:

I learned the hard way a long time ago not to put manure in potted palm soil.  Too much nitrogen all at once makes the soil basic and it doesnt drain so well.  Both of these issues cause chlorosis, but your palm doesnt look so bad.  If you start to see continued degradation I would repot it with new soil.  Palms in pots want high drainage because pots have tiny drain holes.

Is it only palms or all plants that don't like manure in their soil? I use manure in everything... and they grow like crazy.

[sonoranfans]

2 hours ago, Than said:

Is it only palms or all plants that don't like manure in their soil? I use manure in everything... and they grow like crazy.

Maybe its just my perception that the water cycle in a pot is much harder to predict if manure is added and holds drainage up in spots or causes channeling.  Some palms wont mind alkaline pH. many will become deficient and queens are one of those.  Bismarckia and sabals dont seem to care about pH, queens are more sensitive. 

[Than]

8 hours ago, sonoranfans said:

Maybe its just my perception that the water cycle in a pot is much harder to predict if manure is added and holds drainage up in spots or causes channeling.  Some palms wont mind alkaline pH. many will become deficient and queens are one of those.  Bismarckia and sabals dont seem to care about pH, queens are more sensitive. 

Thank you guys; this is why I love this forum, I learn so much from you. I am a bit panicking right now cos I have repotted all my plants this summer and I added manure in all pots.

I just emailed the soil manufacturer to ask what is the percentage of worm manure in their soil. The good news is the rest of the soil is coconut coir with lots of perlite, and I also add lots of lecca or pumice. So there should be good aeration.

[Than]

OK they got back to me and the manure content is 20%. Given that I add loads of lecca, I'd say the manure content in the pot does not exceed 10%. The remaining 90% is coco coir and perlite+lecca. Do you guys think it's still an issue? 

[Phoenikakias]

I fear so... In best case your plant will suffer a set back due to root damage and youre gonna miss two years of growth given the interim pause during winter.  It is imo a genuine matter of pay now or pay double later. In the end of course it is up to you...

[Than]

I guess I'll start repotting then with different soil mix. Can you give me an idea of a goos soil mix? Other than lecca, perlite and coco coir what else should it include? 

[Phoenikakias]

Pine bark, it works well with other South American spp and in particular Syagrus, why not also with Arecastrum?

[Than]

43 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

Pine bark, it works well with other South American spp and in particular Syagrus, why not also with Arecastrum?

None of these have nutrients though; and we said manure and chemical fertilizers are banned. Ι remember that peat is also not a good idea for cold-sensitive plants. So how will I provide nutrients? 

I know Syagrus is not that cold-sensitive, but I am asking about palms in general.

[Phoenikakias]

I use a slow releaser Osmocote and never had issues with deficiencies. I have seen recently a liquid fertilizer specially designed for leca culture, but I have not tested it yet. Fertilizing is an issue for commercial growers and those with tens or hundreds of potted plants. Former add liquid fertilizer in to the water tank, latter, hmm I do not know better create a relevant topic here for more information, but speaking only for myself I am bound to use a slow releaser. I do not have the time and guts to add liquid fertilizer in a bucket of water and then water  weekly or monthly every single potted plant.

[sonoranfans]

35 minutes ago, Than said:

None of these have nutrients though; and we said manure and chemical fertilizers are banned. Ι remember that peat is also not a good idea for cold-sensitive plants. So how will I provide nutrients? 

I know Syagrus is not that cold-sensitive, but I am asking about palms in general.

I have found potted palms do burn much easier.  You can get some humic acid dilute it and put a little fish emulsion(5-1-1) in.  For micros langbeinite is a good non burning choice I have used in pots.

[Phoenikakias]

Just a moment, who said chemical fertilizers should be in every case banned?

[sonoranfans]

1 minute ago, Phoenikakias said:

I use a slow releaser Osmocote and never had issues with deficiencies. I have seen recently a liquid fertilizer specially designed for leca culture, but I have not tested it yet. Fertilizing is an issue for commercial growers and those with tens or hundreds of potted plants. Former add liquid fertilizer in to the water tank, latter, hmm I do not know better create a relevant topic here for more information, but speaking only for myself I am bound to use a slow releaser. I do not have the time and guts to add liquid fertiler in a bucket of water and then water every weekly or monthly every single potted plant.

I use florikan controlled release and it does not burn, many fertilizers will be a problem.  The fish emulsion works but then you have to add other micros.  I assume the OP does not have access to florikan or omocote which are both osmotically controlled.

 

[sonoranfans]

7 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

Just a moment, who said chemical fertilizers should be in every case banned?

I don't think there is a problem with osmotically controlled fertilizers, and yes they are "chemical".  Urea as in urine is chemical and it will burn.

[Phoenikakias]

14 minutes ago, sonoranfans said:

I use florikan controlled release and it does not burn, many fertilizers will be a problem.  The fish emulsion works but then you have to add other micros.  I assume the OP does not have access to florikan or omocote which are both osmotically controlled.

 

Tom, Osmocote is also in Greece available but not easily found. Besides it is expensive but second generation in comparison to 4th one is considerably more affordable. Than does not have yet too many plants, so he can afford buying a small quantity of the fourth generation. The irony is that very near to his old residence there was a garden center, where he could buy a 25 kg bag of 2nd gen. Osmocote at a very good price. That said, if the water used for irrigation is very saline, like the case in Nauplion (a Greek town), any slow releaser may cause damage to potted plants. In such case better quit cultivating rheophytic,  tropical and oceanic palms.

[Than]

46 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

Just a moment, who said chemical fertilizers should be in every case banned?

I just remember you advised against liquid fertilizers when discussing that burnt leaf edge on my Euterpe. 

I took a 6.8 pH reading from the Syagrus pot just now but I dont know how reliable this meter is. 

 

[Phoenikakias]

7 minutes ago, Than said:

I just remember you advised against liquid fertilizers when discussing that burnt leaf edge on my Euterpe. 

I took a 6.8 pH reading from the Syagrus pot just now but I dont know how reliable this meter is. 

 

Because I did not know anything about pot medium, and dosage of diluted liquid fertlizer. It is self evident that by using a very light medium an overconcentration of salts by regular watering is quite improbable.

[Than]

It doesn't look very happy, does it? 😒

[sonoranfans]

Thanasis, I defer to Konstantinos on palms in your area.  I have known him over 10 years here and his advice should be highly informed.

[Phoenikakias]

1 hour ago, Than said:

It doesn't look very happy, does it? 😒

Of course not!

What kind of medium do you see there?

This is a Gomera Mango bought from Antemisaris this past May. It was growing in a bag in a black, awfully muddy soil. It was obviously suffering from root suffocation and was on the verge of collapse. See older leaves.

I had no other choice but to change completely soil and pot and indeed most of its root system was already rotten. New substrate consisting of pine bark, leca and seramis with a pinch of coir and presto! Not only saved but also is on its third row of new leaves.

[Than]

Ι see this a lot with plants from nurseries. Brown leaf edges. I was told it is due to the Cl in the water.

On Saturday I will repot the Syagrus with lots of lecca and pine bark (that's gonna cost!). I will shake off as much of the old soil as possible. Hopefully it won't die.

[Than]

OK I removed as much old soil as I could with the hose and replaced with lecca, pine bark and seramis. Tbh roots didn't look as bad as I had expected. I hope it works. I may add a thin layer of worm castings on top.