Please help! New Palms looking sad

[AngelaKrop]

I have two new palms that were planted about three weeks ago. I am in AZ and the temp has been a high of 110 since planted. I have been watering them daily. The hybrid fan palm has bent and drooping fronds and the lower hanging ones have brown tips.  The Pygmy palm fronds are turning red brown. I figure that is sunburn but I am not sure. I can’t imagine it is overwatering but it’s difficult to be sure when the same symptoms are present in both over and under watering. I was hose watering for the first two weeks but installed an irrigation yesterday. Is this transplant shock or am I doing something wrong? I am not from AZ and not used to the feel of the dry soil or extreme heat. These are my first Palms. They are from a nursery where they were in a container and then planted here by the nursery. My instruction was to give them 22 gallons 4-5 times a week through summer

[Silas_Sancona]

On 7/15/2024 at 3:03 PM, AngelaKrop said:

I have two new palms that were planted about three weeks ago. I am in AZ and the temp has been a high of 110 since planted. I have been watering them daily. The hybrid fan palm has bent and drooping fronds and the lower hanging ones have brown tips.  The Pygmy palm fronds are turning red brown. I figure that is sunburn but I am not sure. I can’t imagine it is overwatering but it’s difficult to be sure when the same symptoms are present in both over and under watering. I was hose watering for the first two weeks but installed an irrigation yesterday. Is this transplant shock or am I doing something wrong? I am not from AZ and not used to the feel of the dry soil or extreme heat. These are my first Palms. They are from a nursery where they were in a container and then planted here by the nursery. My instruction was to give them 22 gallons 4-5 times a week through summer

AngelaKrop, Welcome to the forum..

Both look like they need some water..  While you can plant this time of year,  if you do, whatever goes in needs to be soaked 2-3X's a week ..for about an hour  to keep them going through our heat and lack of much rainfall up this way so far.

Once they have had a year to settle in / get their roots dug in, they won't need quite as much water ..Mexican Fan Palm ( Washingtonia robustra more properly )  especially..  VERY tough palm here.

Come late fall and winter, you can reduce watering to a once a week deep soak ( for about an hour ).. While it may still be warm out, soil here retains water for longer during the cooler months. ...So you typically don't need to water as much as right now.

Absolutely NO fertilizer ..a common mistake people not yet well versed in planting new palms can make  until mid- October.. and only something light ..like Kelp / Fish Emulsion at that time.

Nurseries ..the bad ones here,  may tell you feeding new palms is ok.  Don't take their advise.

Next spring, you can feed with something a little stronger. Palm specieal with a nutrient ratio similar to the one below is ideal

Ideal Nutrient ratio for palms:  8% Nitrogen,  2% Phosporus ( Plenty of that in our soils. Too much will damage soil ..and things growing in it )  ...and - 12% Potassium ( K ) ..Very important nutrient for good growth, and  better tolerance to cold / heat   ...Plus " Minor " nutrients ..like Iron, Magnesium, Zinc, etc..




Fyi, just in case, you might be visited by a forum member who might tell you that Pygmy Dates won't grow here / won't tolerate desert heat..  Guaranteed, ...they will do fine,

...though in Casa Grande,  you might see some minor damage to the foliage following a few back to back mornings in the 29-27F range -if that occurs down there during a given winter. 

A note since you're new to the area:  Because we're typically pretty dry,  Frost is tougher to come by during our chillier mornings during the winter..

Wet day followed by a cold night ( or two ) are when you might consider covering the Pygmy / when frost can actually damage it ..or anything else you might grow that might be a little touchy w/ frost, esp. when younger / newly planted.

Dry and mild the day of a cooler night? ..even if it bottoms out at 31-30F the following morning for an hour or two, the palms / other tender stuff shouldn't experience damage, esp. if that occurs only on a morning or two over the entire winter..

  We typically warm up nicely after most cool mornings too, which means the window for frost ends once the sun hits X plants on a cold morning ..on 98% of such mornings at least..

Regardless, Lots of big, healthy specimens around where i'm located up in Chandler.  Seen some when passing through C.G. on my way to or from Tucson / S. AZ  as well  

...as long as they get a good drink while it is hot, they'll be fine.


Good luck, and feel free to check out the Arizona - Centric thread, dedicated to growing palms here. .

[MJSanDiego]

They are struggling and in shock due to the intense heat.  It is best to plant November through March in the deserts.  Even with daily water it is a struggle because the roots are not established and spread into the native soil yet and are simply having difficulty absorbing up water fast enough. I might get grilled for saying this, but I don't believe Phoenix Roebelenii (pygmy date palm) is an appropriate palm for the AZ desert whatsoever.  It really struggles with low humidity temps over 90, especially young ones that are not established.  The fronds will burn, guaranteed. It will be much harder to establish than Washingtonia Robusta for sure, but it can be done I suppose...... best of luck!

[Silas_Sancona]

3 minutes ago, MJSanDiego said:

I might get grilled for saying this, but I don't believe Phoenix Roebelenii (pygmy date palm) is an appropriate palm for the AZ desert whatsoever.  It really struggles with low humidity temps over 90, especially young ones that are not established.  The fronds will burn, guaranteed.

 ..How about raked  ..over some coals.. 

  Pygmys?   do fine  here.. 

MORE examples of specimens just in my neighborhood,  in the desert,  where it is over 110 / 84-95 in the mornings  this time of year .. 

Sure won't grow here,   Right?....











More than happy to post ....many  more shots of  perfectly healthy   Phoenix  roebelenii  ( not Roebelnii,  btw.  )  specimens here anytime you ..or anyone else ...who does not live here   tries to tell people living here that they don't / won't grow here.

You might just stick to your Queens

[MJSanDiego]

6 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

 ..How about raked  ..over some coals.. 

  Pygmys?   do fine  here.. 

MORE examples of specimens just in my neighborhood,  in the desert,  where it is over 110 / 84-95 in the mornings  this time of year .. 

Sure won't grow here,   Right?....











More than happy to post ....many  more shots of  perfectly healthy   Phoenix  roebelenii  ( not Roebelnii,  btw.  )  specimens here anytime you ..or anyone else ...who does not live here   tries to tell people living here that they don't / won't grow here.

You might just stick to your Queens

 

6 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

 ..How about raked  ..over some coals.. 

  Pygmys?   do fine  here.. 

MORE examples of specimens just in my neighborhood,  in the desert,  where it is over 110 / 84-95 in the mornings  this time of year .. 

Sure won't grow here,   Right?....











More than happy to post ....many  more shots of  perfectly healthy   Phoenix  roebelenii  ( not Roebelnii,  btw.  )  specimens here anytime you ..or anyone else ...who does not live here   tries to tell people living here that they don't / won't grow here.

You might just stick to your Queens

As I said in my o

 

7 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

 ..How about raked  ..over some coals.. 

  Pygmys?   do fine  here.. 

MORE examples of specimens just in my neighborhood,  in the desert,  where it is over 110 / 84-95 in the mornings  this time of year .. 

Sure won't grow here,   Right?....











More than happy to post ....many  more shots of  perfectly healthy   Phoenix  roebelenii  ( not Roebelnii,  btw.  )  specimens here anytime you ..or anyone else ...who does not live here   tries to tell people living here that they don't / won't grow here.

You might just stick to your Queens

 

7 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

 ..How about raked  ..over some coals.. 

  Pygmys?   do fine  here.. 

MORE examples of specimens just in my neighborhood,  in the desert,  where it is over 110 / 84-95 in the mornings  this time of year .. 

Sure won't grow here,   Right?....











More than happy to post ....many  more shots of  perfectly healthy   Phoenix  roebelenii  ( not Roebelnii,  btw.  )  specimens here anytime you ..or anyone else ...who does not live here   tries to tell people living here that they don't / won't grow here.

You might just stick to your Queens

As I said in my prior post, they will be harder to get established than the mexican fan palm, but it can be done.  I never said they could not grow there, please review my post again. I just said I didn't think it was an appropriate palm for the deserts, meaning worth the time to get them established as they do burn in the desert heat until well established

[MJSanDiego]

Furthermore, some of those pygmy palms you sent do not look healthy. IMO.  Very short fronds due to intense desert heat, yellow, over pruned too.  Yes, they grow, but that is not what they look like in their ideal zone, sorry.  Anyone else have an opinion?  I will get pics soon when I am out to show you a healthy pygmy when it is grown in its proper zone.  You will see the difference. I am not just blowing smoke, this forum is all about learning and experiences, reality is reality

[Silas_Sancona]

16 minutes ago, MJSanDiego said:

 

As I said in my o

 

 

As I said in my prior post, they will be harder to get established than the mexican fan palm, but it can be done.  I never said they could not grow there, please review my post again. I just said I didn't think  it was an  appropriate  palm for the deserts, meaning worth the time to get them established as they do burn in the desert heat until well established

Not hard to establish here -at -all ..unless treated worse than a cactus..  Seen plenty of badly treated cacti.. Only observed a handful of badly treated roebelenii.

Saying that they, ...in your " opinion "....  aren't an appropriate palm here is exactly the same thing as saying they shouldn't be grown. Intelligent people aren't confused by word salad.

9 minutes ago, MJSanDiego said:

Furthermore, some of those pygmy palms you sent do not look healthy. IMO.  Very short fronds due to intense desert heat, yellow, over pruned too.  Yes, they grow, but that is not what they look like in their ideal zone, sorry.  Anyone else have an opinion?  I will get pics soon when I am out to show you a healthy pygmy when it is grown in its proper zone.  You will see the difference. I am not just blowing smoke, this forum is all about learning and experiences, reality is reality

A bit over trimmed -in some circumstances-, perhaps.  That aside, all specimens i've seen here over the past ...7.1/2 years, ( plus 3 if you added in the trips here )  and counting....  look exactly like the ..thousands.. of others i've seen and maintained in both FL and CA..  None  look unhealthy.   ...Not  a  single  one.. 

No interest in seeing  your idea of " the difference "  

I'm really starting to think you are a troll..

[aztropic]

Here's my example of a pygmy date palm that I grew from seed I started 27 years ago. Not exactly 'pygmy' size anymore, but it has taken everything that the Arizona desert has thrown at it in stride. 120F + temps in the summer,23F on its coldest winter days over the years. It is planted on a western exposure and receives full sun from about 11am on. Always looks good,even with minimal water,as I only water it about once a week by hand,and that's if I remember...

There are tens of thousands of pygmy dates already planted across Arizona, so those sheer numbers alone prove that it is an acceptable species for the average homeowner to grow here successfully. 

 

aztropic 

Mesa, Arizona 

[ZPalms]

8 minutes ago, aztropic said:

Here's my example of a pygmy date palm that I grew from seed I started 27 years ago. Not exactly 'pygmy' size anymore, but it has taken everything that the Arizona desert has thrown at it in stride. 120F + temps in the summer,23F on its coldest winter days over the years. It is planted on a western exposure and receives full sun from about 11am on. Always looks good,even with minimal water,as I only water it about once a week by hand,and that's if I remember...

There are tens of thousands of pygmy dates already planted across Arizona, so those sheer numbers alone prove that it is an acceptable species for the average homeowner to grow here successfully. 

 

aztropic 

Mesa, Arizona 

This is a prize, I love them untrimmed 😍

[Harry’s Palms]

Back to the OP , I think a bit of die back is to be expected . The extreme temps don’t help but with enough water they should survive . Deep soakin is imperative for this sized palms that are newly planted.. I can’t tell if that is mulch around the palm . If not add wood chips or gorilla hair to help hold in moisture. A good nursery will insure that they take or replace if they don’t. Harry

[MJSanDiego]

That is exactly what I said above that they are struggling in the heat and just in shock as the roots are not established yet. But then I made the apparent mistake of commenting that I didn't think this palm was appropriate for the AZ desert even though it can grow and this just blew up! My point is that I am a firm believer in planting in the right zones. Not just the right cold hardiness zone. You also have to factor in your heat zone map. That is how many days per year above 85 degrees and the average humidity of said days. Well anyway, your plants will be fine but it is best to plant November to April so they can get more established before the heat. I used to live in the High Desert of CA and I refrained from planting in June, July and August due to aforementioned reasons

[sonoranfans]

They need water, the pygmy's dont have a problem with heat or sun if they get enough water.   I agree that when you first plant them it is best in fall, but this time of year they may need water every other day for a couple months.  Water more time for a deeper depth and just use a trickle hose or irrigation emitter.  The one in the pic, grown in gilbert AZ got 2gph for 5 hrs overnight every 2-3 days in summer, less in winter of course.  Don;t make the mistake of a high hose volume and lots of water, depth of wetting in soil depends on time, not flow volume.  I might also spray them at the end of the day if its over 105F and dry.  Once they develop a good root system, they will be fine.  If you want to grow palms in arizona talk to those who have done it.  Lookj up local palm talkers like AZtropic.

[AngelaKrop]

On 7/16/2024 at 4:15 PM, Silas_Sancona said:

AngelaKrop, Welcome to the forum..

Both look like they need some water..  While you can plant this time of year,  if you do, whatever goes in needs to be soaked 2-3X's a week ..for about an hour  to keep them going through our heat and lack of much rainfall up this way so far.

Once they have had a year to settle in / get their roots dug in, they won't need quite as much water ..Mexican Fan Palm ( Washingtonia robustra more properly )  especially..  VERY tough palm here.

Come late fall and winter, you can reduce watering to a once a week deep soak ( for about an hour ).. While it may still be warm out, soil here retains water for longer during the cooler months. ...So you typically don't need to water as much as right now.

Absolutely NO fertilizer ..a common mistake people not yet well versed in planting new palms can make  until mid- October.. and only something light ..like Kelp / Fish Emulsion at that time.

Nurseries ..the bad ones here,  may tell you feeding new palms is ok.  Don't take their advise.

Next spring, you can feed with something a little stronger. Palm specieal with a nutrient ratio similar to the one below is ideal

Ideal Nutrient ratio for palms:  8% Nitrogen,  2% Phosporus ( Plenty of that in our soils. Too much will damage soil ..and things growing in it )  ...and - 12% Potassium ( K ) ..Very important nutrient for good growth, and  better tolerance to cold / heat   ...Plus " Minor " nutrients ..like Iron, Magnesium, Zinc, etc..




Fyi, just in case, you might be visited by a forum member who might tell you that Pygmy Dates won't grow here / won't tolerate desert heat..  Guaranteed, ...they will do fine,

...though in Casa Grande,  you might see some minor damage to the foliage following a few back to back mornings in the 29-27F range -if that occurs down there during a given winter. 

A note since you're new to the area:  Because we're typically pretty dry,  Frost is tougher to come by during our chillier mornings during the winter..

Wet day followed by a cold night ( or two ) are when you might consider covering the Pygmy / when frost can actually damage it ..or anything else you might grow that might be a little touchy w/ frost, esp. when younger / newly planted.

Dry and mild the day of a cooler night? ..even if it bottoms out at 31-30F the following morning for an hour or two, the palms / other tender stuff shouldn't experience damage, esp. if that occurs only on a morning or two over the entire winter..

  We typically warm up nicely after most cool mornings too, which means the window for frost ends once the sun hits X plants on a cold morning ..on 98% of such mornings at least..

Regardless, Lots of big, healthy specimens around where i'm located up in Chandler.  Seen some when passing through C.G. on my way to or from Tucson / S. AZ  as well  

...as long as they get a good drink while it is hot, they'll be fine.


Good luck, and feel free to check out the Arizona - Centric thread, dedicated to growing palms here. .

Thank you so much for the information and all the images of good looking Pygmy’s. I will NEVER have anything planted in summer again. These were done by Moon Valley nursery and they said planting anytime is fine. I at least purchased the guarantee so they will replace them if needed in the first year. I was just looking for honest opinions on their progress as I imagine the nursery doesn’t ever really want to replace them. I haven’t fertilized them. I was told by the nursery to start giving them moon juice weekly which they said is like a free steroid. I had some hedges done by them that are truly sad and I’m considering doing another palm instead as my guarantee even includes a change of mind. I had purple hopseed done. Huge mistake! They are way too messy. What would you suggest as a hedge material? I have two dogs and need something pet friendly.

[SeanK]

On 7/16/2024 at 7:50 PM, MJSanDiego said:

They are struggling and in shock due to the intense heat.  It is best to plant November through March in the deserts.  Even with daily water it is a struggle because the roots are not established and spread into the native soil yet and are simply having difficulty absorbing up water fast enough. I might get grilled for saying this, but I don't believe Phoenix Roebelenii (pygmy date palm) is an appropriate palm for the AZ desert whatsoever.  It really struggles with low humidity temps over 90, especially young ones that are not established.  The fronds will burn, guaranteed. It will be much harder to establish than Washingtonia Robusta for sure, but it can be done I suppose...... best of luck!

I agree 100%. P.roebellini should be planted with afternoon shade in the low desert. It originates from SE Asian jungles.

https://palmpedia.net/wiki/Phoenix_roebelenii

[Silas_Sancona]

37 minutes ago, AngelaKrop said:

Thank you so much for the information and all the images of good looking Pygmy’s. I will NEVER have anything planted in summer again. These were done by Moon Valley nursery and they said planting anytime is fine. I at least purchased the guarantee so they will replace them if needed in the first year. I was just looking for honest opinions on their progress as I imagine the nursery doesn’t ever really want to replace them. I haven’t fertilized them. I was told by the nursery to start giving them moon juice weekly which they said is like a free steroid. I had some hedges done by them that are truly sad and I’m considering doing another palm instead as my guarantee even includes a change of mind. I had purple hopseed done. Huge mistake! They are way too messy. What would you suggest as a hedge material? I have two dogs and need something pet friendly.

Angela,  You're welcome..

You're cue that the Fertilizer they recommended isn't exactly the best? ..." Steroid / Steroid -like " ..That often means it is likely chemically derived, and -more often than not- will cause more harm ..to the plants, and soil they're growing in, than offer any good  benefit.

Falls into the same category as Super Thrive and the dreaded Miracle Gro stuff.  " Moon Juice " ..Is more marketing gimmick than a trustworthy fertilizer option.

As i think i might have mentioned, something mild like diluted Kelp ..and /or Fish Emulsion is your best bet fertilizer- wise until the palms have established themselves, ( Establishment usually takes about a year or two ) then you'll slowly introduce a quality palm special ( applied 3X's a year, and containing at least 12% K, + micro nutrients ) ..Which you can use on pretty much anything as well ( W/ the exception of native plants ..they don't really need anything extra to get them going )

While they can be a good hedge / barrier-type plant option, completely agree that Hopseed can be a huge mess..  Something most nurseries won't tell their customers ( Customers to most nurseries = clients to me ) about them is that the plants are naturally single - sexed.

...Simply put,  a client who might like them, but doesn't want the enormous mess of seeds blowing around would plant all female ..or all male plants, rather than both, together.

Regardless, 

Depending on what height you're trying to create, several tough plants can make great hedge-type options ..and are pet friendly.. Have a pup myself and while he generally leaves stuff alone, i'm still very mindful of the potential of him nibbling on something when choosing stuff for the back yard..  All of the following things easily take our heat, cold spells in the winter, long dry spells w/ out much -if any-  trouble.

Baja Ruella, Ruellia californica / peninsularis,   and any of the Texas Sage ( Leucophyllum  ) varieties < several >  are fool proof and produce flowers in the Magenta -Purple to Dark Blue Violet Blue spectrum,  even if lightly trimmed occasionally..   Baja Ruellia will generally stay under 4ft in height,  while TX Sage can range from 3-5ft, to 10Ft in height,  depending on the cultivar..

Tecoma stans ...and the numerous varieties of Tecoma  that can have Red, Orange, or bi-colored flowers,  are great here.. A little gangly if left to do their own thing.  Fill in nicely if given a haircut occasionally to tighten them up / correct errant growth.

California / Baja  Fairyduster, Calliandra californica  can reach 10 -12+ft in height,  if watered enough. Bright red puff-ball like flowers come and go in cycles throughout the year.  Not messy.  Irresistible to both Butterflies and Hummingbirds also..



Now, while i'm not a big fan of the older varieties ..because of the mess they create, ..and the thorns on them,  " Torch Glow " Bougainvilleas can be used to create a fantastic barrier / hedge -type planting..

Unlike traditional Bougainvillea, growth on Torch Glow is more compact / tighter.. They're a tad slower as well, and while they do produce an abundance of flowers  -like all Bougainvillea-,  flowers are smaller and seem not to make as much of a mess ( personal observation only ) .. Have them planted in both yards here, and planted at a house i'd lived at a few doors down from where i'm at currently..  My pup, who likes to chase anything that enters the yard, hasn't had any issues when he has run into them. Other ..older -type- Bougainvillea in the yard?  after a few minor scrapes, he stays away from them. 

Th do have a small deg. of thorns ...more " stubs " than actual thorns but, what thorniness is present on Torch Glows tend to be sparse and thorns themselves very short.. ..What i've noticed on the ones planted, and all the specimens planted in my neighborhood here in Chandler / other areas nearby.

Do need a little training for the first couple years to get them to fill in,  but, there's a Veterinary clinic not far from me that is partially enclosed by a 10ft tall wall of this particular Bougainvillea type.  Looks great all year.

Since it can get a little colder down there, only potential flaw w/ these there in Casa Grande is you might loose a little top growth after a few back to back cold mornings..  Unless it's a really bad freeze, they usually shake off any minor damage as soon as it warms up.  Have seen them planted around colder spots like Queen Creek and down in San Tan and they always seem fine when i've seen them ..say in April,  after experiencing some burn after a few cold mornings say in late January.


Obviously, plant options you want to avoid would be stuff like Oleander  -why anyone plants these any more i couldn't tell you, lol..  and " Lucky Nut " ..a nice,  but very toxic relative of Oleander that is planted extensively, at least up here.

Texas Mtn. Laurel is another great plant that i myself wouldn't plant where pets might access them.. Though tougher than jaw breakers, bright red seeds are quite toxic.

While they can look rather ragged out in the desert, Creosote Bush can make a surprisingly nice looking hedge.. Foliage is toxic to animals though, ...so not something i'd recommend planting where the pups might get into it, even though the plant itself is extremely tough..


Apologize if this is is bit long -winded, but hope this helps..  Feel free to ask any additional questions, any time.