Cold hardiness of Trachycarpus Wagnerian’s x ‘Bulgaria’?

[Ohiopalmloverz6]

I saw on Desertscape Nursery’s website that their Trachycarpus wagnerianus x ‘Bulgaria’ took below -10F. Would this be true? I’m very tempted to grow one here in zone 6.

[Chester B]

No!!  Bulgaria is a sales gimmick.  I wish them and everyone else peddling these seeds/palms would stop spreading this misinformation. There is zero evidence that these are hardier.  Actually a lot of people growing them alongside regular fortunei report them to be LESS hardy. 

Trachycarpus fortunei is the hardiest trunking palm, any old palm or seed will do.

I don't mean to come across as harsh, but this whole bulgaria nonsense has to stop.  It comes up every month on the forum from newer palm growers.

If you're in Ohio "The Big Three" is what you should try growing first - Sabal minor, Rhapidophyllum hystrix (needle palm) and Trachycarpus fortunei.

Edited February 4, 2024 by Chester B

[SeanK]

1 hour ago, Ohiopalmloverz6 said:

I saw on Desertscape Nursery’s website that their Trachycarpus wagnerianus x ‘Bulgaria’ took below -10F. Would this be true? I’m very tempted to grow one here in zone 6.

I read similar things regarding many species here on Palmtalk. Be wary where you take your advice from.

Wishing doesn't make it so.

[Ohiopalmloverz6]

35 minutes ago, Chester B said:

No!!  Bulgaria is a sales gimmick.  I wish them and everyone else peddling these seeds/palms would stop spreading this misinformation. There is zero evidence that these are hardier.  Actually a lot of people growing them alongside regular fortunei report them to be LESS hardy. 

Trachycarpus fortunei is the hardiest trunking palm, any old palm or seed will do.

I don't mean to come across as harsh, but this whole bulgaria nonsense has to stop.  It comes up every month on the forum from newer palm growers.

If you're in Ohio "The Big Three" is what you should try growing first - Sabal minor, Rhapidophyllum hystrix (needle palm) and Trachycarpus fortunei.

What about Trachycarpus wagnerianus? Would those be more cold hardy than fortunei?

[Trustandi]

Trachycarpus wagnerianus is less hardy than fortunei. I find it to grow a bit slower compared to regular fortunei. 

[Chester B]

28 minutes ago, Ohiopalmloverz6 said:

What about Trachycarpus wagnerianus? Would those be more cold hardy than fortunei?

Most sources report Wagnerianus as 5F less cold hardy than fortunei.  I don't know if anyone on here has really seen that.  Waggies might be a little easier to protect due to the shorter fronds.

[SeanK]

5 minutes ago, Chester B said:

Most sources report Wagnerianus as 5F less cold hardy than fortunei.  I don't know if anyone on here has really seen that.  Waggies might be a little easier to protect due to the shorter fronds.

In my area, there are 20 fortuneis for each waggie. The few waggies I've seen near me did fine at 5°F in Dec 2022 and in this winter's polar express. The fortuneis have ranged from 0% to 100% damage. 

[Las Palmas Norte]

1 hour ago, Chester B said:

... I don't mean to come across as harsh, but this whole bulgaria nonsense has to stop.  It comes up every month on the forum from newer palm growers. ...

A common thread as you state. New exotic enthusiasts are exuberant and eager to explore their "hardy palm" passion without a more complete understanding. Some sellers exploit that emotion and vulnerability with duplicity. Claims of record cold survival depends on many factors which may or may not be present in their environment. Caveat emptor.

[ChicagoPalma]

12 minutes ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

A common thread as you state. New exotic enthusiasts are exuberant and eager to explore their "hardy palm" passion without a more complete understanding. Some sellers exploit that emotion and vulnerability with duplicity. Claims of record cold survival depends on many factors which may or may not be present in their environment. Caveat emptor.

Very true in this case.

2 hours ago, Ohiopalmloverz6 said:

I saw on Desertscape Nursery’s website that their Trachycarpus wagnerianus x ‘Bulgaria’ took below -10F. Would this be true? I’m very tempted to grow one here in zone 6.

Yeah any old fortunei would do. A waggie x fortunei I have no knowledge of really, but I think it wouldn't be bad. Just get the fortunei x waggie on their if its cheaper. I can give you a couple tips if you want since my growing zone is even colder, especially this year, yeah.  Also with any palm you grow, you have to protect it in the winter, needles and minor's may be an exception after two-three years being planted.

[PalmatierMeg]

Another thought: many people don't understand the concept of Fahrenheit scale (F) and Centigrade scale (C) so therefore mix up the two scales. -23F is much much colder than -23C (which is -9.4F and still improbable IMO). It's likely someone confused or intentionally jiggered those low temps. Used to be all students were taught Fahrenheit vs Centigrade and formulas for converting them back & forth. Of course, that useless info has been dropped from school curriculum

[Chester B]

@Ohiopalmloverz6 One other bit of advice I would give is that when you are unfamiliar with a palm or any other plant,  is to reference multiple sources, especially when it comes to cold hardiness.  We've all been burnt at one time or another.  My first year I planted some Red bananas (Ensete maurelli) and Orange bird of paradise in my garden back in Oregon because HomeDepot sold them in the outdoor garden center and the tag said zone 8B.  Well by mid winter they were all mush, so I learned my lesson the hard way.

You've come here for advice which is a great decision, as there are a ton of knowledge, friendly and helpful people on this board.  Good luck!

[RJ]

1 hour ago, PalmatierMeg said:

Another thought: many people don't understand the concept of Fahrenheit scale (F) and Centigrade scale (C) so therefore mix up the two scales. -23F is much much colder than -23C (which is -9.4F and still improbable IMO). It's likely someone confused or intentionally jiggered those low temps. Used to be all students were taught Fahrenheit vs Centigrade and formulas for converting them back & forth. Of course, that useless info has been dropped from school curriculum

Don't through them a curve ball and mention -40c 🤪

 

When I was in grade school we were all taught within 10 years we would be on the metric system in the US. So we learned the conversions.... and well many decades later it still hasn't happened.  I lived close enough to the Canadian boarder for many years that we were pretty good and ball parking them in our heads. 

[Cody Salem]

If you want a Trachycarpus wagnerianus  you should get one, but don't expect it to be anything special.  I've heard nothing but good things about Desertscape as a business, so I don't understand why his plant descriptions need to be so "misleading."    Any of the names are just things that he came up with on his own.  I know Eastern Oregon very well and no one is growing palm trees in the ground out there.   In 2013 Redmond had a record low of  -27f  and they can get frosts even in July and August. 

[ChicagoPalma]

5 hours ago, PalmatierMeg said:

Another thought: many people don't understand the concept of Fahrenheit scale (F) and Centigrade scale (C) so therefore mix up the two scales. -23F is much much colder than -23C (which is -9.4F and still improbable IMO). It's likely someone confused or intentionally jiggered those low temps. Used to be all students were taught Fahrenheit vs Centigrade and formulas for converting them back & forth. Of course, that useless info has been dropped from school curriculum

It’s still being taught but only in advanced classes.

[mdsonofthesouth]

Also I feel like the idea of variability and setting should be discussed regarding palms. I have grown 10 trachycarpus here in Maryland and 9 have died at various temperatures and conditions. Some died after the 2018 polar vortex while some survived only to die to far less cold exposure despite protection. The one I have left was planted on the eastern side of my house and is now 7ft tall and has never seen protection. It has 90% defoliated once last year but is going strong for now. We are a warm 7a with most years staying in the zone 8 range. 

 

Just remember there will be TONS of variability in the same plant type (especially palms), and the setting plays a HUGE difference as well. The one that survives to this day is in a setting where the ground pretty much never freezes due to sun and proximity to my house, gets a ton of sun, and is protected from our usual westerly winds. This is also with the crown exposed to as low as 5f for however long the 2018 polar vortex was...I think it was something like 200 hours below freezing and some nights in the single digits.

[Sabal King]

21 hours ago, Chester B said:

No!!  Bulgaria is a sales gimmick.  I wish them and everyone else peddling these seeds/palms would stop spreading this misinformation. There is zero evidence that these are hardier.  Actually a lot of people growing them alongside regular fortunei report them to be LESS hardy. 

Trachycarpus fortunei is the hardiest trunking palm, any old palm or seed will do.

I don't mean to come across as harsh, but this whole bulgaria nonsense has to stop.  It comes up every month on the forum from newer palm growers.

If you're in Ohio "The Big Three" is what you should try growing first - Sabal minor, Rhapidophyllum hystrix (needle palm) and Trachycarpus fortunei.

YES ^^ This.. I did a YT about this last year and some folks weren't happy about it, but it's reality.  It's a huge gimmick, and in general trachys aren't as cold hardy as folks want them to be.  Just start by planting one of the dozen plus varieties of Sabal minor and stop stressing about winters.