Sabal palmetto that survived -1F in Augusta , Ga

[WSimpson]

I was checking out palms being sold from PDN and saw this Palmetto they call Sabal palmetto Augusta ( I've never heard of it ) . It survived the 80's record cold  . It reminded me of my Sabal palmetto " Tifton Hardy " . They also have some Miamiensis and a hardy Cycas for sale . 

https://www.plantdelights.com/products/sabal-palmetto-augusta

Will

 

 

Edited January 19, 2024 by Will Simpson

[SeanK]

Very Nice. If the bud were still at ground level in 1985, that could explain it's survival.

[WSimpson]

3 minutes ago, SeanK said:

Very Nice. If the bud were still at ground level in 1985, that could explain it's survival.

Being smaller and having the bud area  partially below ground  could've  been  the reason it survived ? I hope it was just a really hardy palm though since I might get one .

My Tifton hardy lost its entire spear area during my 2018 record cold here , taking out 4 or so spears , and when I finally noticed the damaged and pulled out the spears ,  it left a hole that went below  the ground  . I didn't even use peroxide and fungicide because I was so sure it was dead . Later towards summer I happened to look down in the hole and was incredibly surprised to see growth coming out . It is now doing well although damaged by with some tip burn from that 6F around Christmas last year . I just remembered that its spear pulled out last year  after that 6F too . I have avoided  the severe cold here this winter with a Low of only 15F so far , so it should be fine going into next spring without any spear damage , unless February surprises us . 

I hoping as well that my Tifton  Hardy has special hardiness . 

Will

[Sabal King]

I've been thinking about picking up one of these.. I have spoken to the owner of this palm, who supplied seeds to PDN and he mentioned no seeds this year, so I might just pick one up from PDN.

[WSimpson]

1 hour ago, Sabal King said:

I've been thinking about picking up one of these.. I have spoken to the owner of this palm, who supplied seeds to PDN and he mentioned no seeds this year, so I might just pick one up from PDN.

Leave me one LOL . Possibly a real winner !

Will

[Sabal King]

30 minutes ago, Will Simpson said:

Leave me one LOL . Possibly a real winner !

Will

I'm thinking about it man..... I am tempted for sure!  The owner said there are NO seeds this year unfortunately..

[Leelanau Palms]

36 minutes ago, Will Simpson said:

Leave me one LOL . Possibly a real winner !

Will

The Sabal King-dom needs one. It must grow!

[Las Palmas Norte]

Nice. 

[ChicagoPalma]

I've been thinking about sabals lately and they would make a great addition to my garden! Other than plain old sabal minor there are some other varieties that I've heard of, sabal minor var oregon and a couple others too.

[Sabal King]

8 hours ago, ChicagoPalma said:

I've been thinking about sabals lately and they would make a great addition to my garden! Other than plain old sabal minor there are some other varieties that I've heard of, sabal minor var oregon and a couple others too.

oh not this again... 

[RFun]

17 hours ago, SeanK said:

Very Nice. If the bud were still at ground level in 1985, that could explain it's survival.

Or it could just be a hardy Sabal Palmetto.  As I've said before, Wilmington, NC has seen 0F before.  Take a look at what's growing there.

Edited January 20, 2024 by RFun

[SeanK]

1 hour ago, RFun said:

Or it could just be a hardy Sabal Palmetto.  As I've said before, Wilmington, NC has seen 0F before.  Take a look at what's growing there.

Could be. I believe that is the northern, natural geographic limit for palmetto. But 0° once in a lifetime is different than a true z7a.

Edited January 20, 2024 by SeanK

[MattInRaleigh]

21 hours ago, Will Simpson said:

Being smaller and having the bud area  partially below ground  could've  been  the reason it survived ? I hope it was just a really hardy palm though since I might get one .

My Tifton hardy lost its entire spear area during my 2018 record cold here , taking out 4 or so spears , and when I finally noticed the damaged and pulled out the spears ,  it left a hole that went below  the ground  . I didn't even use peroxide and fungicide because I was so sure it was dead . Later towards summer I happened to look down in the hole and was incredibly surprised to see growth coming out . It is now doing well although damaged by with some tip burn from that 6F around Christmas last year . I just remembered that its spear pulled out last year  after that 6F too . I have avoided  the severe cold here this winter with a Low of only 15F so far , so it should be fine going into next spring without any spear damage , unless February surprises us . 

I hoping as well that my Tifton  Hardy has special hardiness . 

Will

I emailed Plant Delights/Juniper Level Botanic garden about their palmetto collection after I saw a recent blog post by the owner about the two long-term palmetto survivors in the garden, which were the Bald Head Island and Mt Holly varieties.

None of the Tifton Hardy relatives have survived there. There is a palmetto that was planted in the 1990’s at the JC Raulston Arboretum in Raleigh. I think it may have come from the Tifton Hardy lineage but no one could confirm it.

I think the safest approach to getting a hardy palmetto is to get one that has Bald Head Island genetics since the overall population is likely hardier rather than an individual specimen that proved to be hardy but may not have passed that down to its offspring.

[WSimpson]

8 minutes ago, MattInRaleigh said:

I emailed Plant Delights/Juniper Level Botanic garden about their palmetto collection after I saw a recent blog post by the owner about the two long-term palmetto survivors in the garden, which were the Bald Head Island and Mt Holly varieties.

None of the Tifton Hardy relatives have survived there. There is a palmetto that was planted in the 1990’s at the JC Raulston Arboretum in Raleigh. I think it may have come from the Tifton Hardy lineage but no one could confirm it.

I think the safest approach to getting a hardy palmetto is to get one that has Bald Head Island genetics since the overall population is likely hardier rather than an individual specimen that proved to be hardy but may not have passed that down to its offspring.

Well said Matt .

Will

[teddytn]

7 hours ago, MattInRaleigh said:

I emailed Plant Delights/Juniper Level Botanic garden about their palmetto collection after I saw a recent blog post by the owner about the two long-term palmetto survivors in the garden, which were the Bald Head Island and Mt Holly varieties.

None of the Tifton Hardy relatives have survived there. There is a palmetto that was planted in the 1990’s at the JC Raulston Arboretum in Raleigh. I think it may have come from the Tifton Hardy lineage but no one could confirm it.

I think the safest approach to getting a hardy palmetto is to get one that has Bald Head Island genetics since the overall population is likely hardier rather than an individual specimen that proved to be hardy but may not have passed that down to its offspring.

Do you have a link to that blog post handy? I looked and couldn’t find it 

[Allen]

12 minutes ago, teddytn said:

Do you have a link to that blog post handy? I looked and couldn’t find it 

https://www.juniperlevelbotanicgarden.org/mt-holly-palmetto/#

[teddytn]

39 minutes ago, Allen said:

https://www.juniperlevelbotanicgarden.org/mt-holly-palmetto/#

@MattInRaleigh @Allen thank you both! 

[ChicagoPalma]

16 hours ago, Sabal King said:

oh not this again... 

Calm down Calm down, last years craze was because the uk guy kept keeping it up, but thats was just my imagination being opened to many different species of palms I've never heard of. OF course the sabal minor var oregon is the fakest thing I've ever seen from desertscape nursery, but that is just one to name. Of course, If I go crazy again I would plant a mule and grow it till I gotta use two ladders to protect it, so like 3 years. I have been actually thinking about it because this years protection kept my windmill above freezing to barely below freezing during the polar vortex, aka -10F and lower 😆! But never listen to what I say when I start yapping about stuff and I go off topic.

[RJ]

1 hour ago, ChicagoPalma said:

Calm down Calm down, last years craze was because the uk guy kept keeping it up, but thats was just my imagination being opened to many different species of palms I've never heard of. OF course the sabal minor var oregon is the fakest thing I've ever seen from desertscape nursery, but that is just one to name. Of course, If I go crazy again I would plant a mule and grow it till I gotta use two ladders to protect it, so like 3 years. I have been actually thinking about it because this years protection kept my windmill above freezing to barely below freezing during the polar vortex, aka -10F and lower 😆! But never listen to what I say when I start yapping about stuff and I go off topic.

FYI, sabal’s don’t like being wrapped up for months on end like a windmill for instance. Night and day difference… you will have a very hard time wrapping a mule palm up after a couple years, they grow fast and have large fronds that will get rather difficult to protect. But hey go for it, if you’re creative enough I’m sure you can pull it off 

[RFun]

22 hours ago, SeanK said:

Could be. I believe that is the northern, natural geographic limit for palmetto. But 0° once in a lifetime is different than a true z7a.

No, Augusta, GA isn't the northern, natural geographic limit for the Sabal Palmetto, as far as I'm concerned.  I would guess that limit would be in the Norfolk, VA area.  Yes, once in a great while at 0F is different than several visits to 0F.

Edited January 21, 2024 by RFun

[MattInRaleigh]

2 hours ago, RFun said:

No, Augusta, GA isn't the northern, natural geographic limit for the Sabal Palmetto, as far as I'm concerned.  I would guess that limit would be in the Norfolk, VA area.  Yes, once in a great while at 0F is different than several visits to 0F.

If you mean the northern most native population of Sabal Palmetto, then that is Bald Head Island, NC and just north of it but south of Wilmington, NC.

[RFun]

19 minutes ago, MattInRaleigh said:

If you mean the northern most native population of Sabal Palmetto, then that is Bald Head Island, NC and just north of it but south of Wilmington, NC.

I haven't seen any convincing information on that.  I'm sticking with the Norfolk, VA area.

[ChicagoPalma]

11 hours ago, RJ said:

FYI, sabal’s don’t like being wrapped up for months on end like a windmill for instance. Night and day difference… you will have a very hard time wrapping a mule palm up after a couple years, they grow fast and have large fronds that will get rather difficult to protect. But hey go for it, if you’re creative enough I’m sure you can pull it off 

I didn't wrap my windmill, I just put lights on it and put a insulating box over it. The air temperature in there is very warm and never goes below freezing. Of course with a larger enclosure heating will be a problem, but I can build a 20ft light weight enclosure that can last for years, problem is where to store it. Sabals would be easier on the other hand. I wonder why james palms sabal palmetto never made it, why get a hurricane cut sabal or regenerated sabal if it takes so long to grow back?

[RFun]

14 minutes ago, ChicagoPalma said:

I didn't wrap my windmill, I just put lights on it and put a insulating box over it. The air temperature in there is very warm and never goes below freezing. Of course with a larger enclosure heating will be a problem, but I can build a 20ft light weight enclosure that can last for years, problem is where to store it. Sabals would be easier on the other hand. I wonder why james palms sabal palmetto never made it, why get a hurricane cut sabal or regenerated sabal if it takes so long to grow back?

Sounds good.  I don't know why James would get anything that has been cut back.  From what I've seen, Sabal Palmettos that have been cut back have a hard time recovering from the transplant, alone.  Not even mentioning the growth rate.  And this assumes the roots haven't been disturbed too much.  Sabal palmettos are much more "set it and forget it" types of palms.

Edited January 21, 2024 by RFun

[MattInRaleigh]

2 hours ago, RFun said:

I haven't seen any convincing information on that.  I'm sticking with the Norfolk, VA area.

What information says there is a native population in Norfolk VA?

 

For Bald Head Island, NC, here's an excerpt from The Palmetto Book by Jono Miller:

"The northernmost naturally occurring cabbage palms lie in North Carolina. In 1819, F.A. Michaux wrote that palmettos were were "first seen about Cape Hatteras, in the 34th degree of latitude." The actual Cape is above 35 degrees, so he may have been speaking imprecisely, which would place his first cabbage palms in the vicinity of Bald Head Island, further south.

Tony Avent, from Juniper Level Botanic Garden/Plant Delights Nursery says "Those who have studied Sabal palmetto in the wild have noted that the earliest populations to flower are those from the most northern, naturally-occurring population on North Carolina’s Bald Head Island."

Gary Hollar, who studies native NC palms, says "Bald Head Island, NC is the most northern native stand of Sabal palmetto.".

[RFun]

35 minutes ago, MattInRaleigh said:

What information says there is a native population in Norfolk VA?

 

For Bald Head Island, NC, here's an excerpt from The Palmetto Book by Jono Miller:

"The northernmost naturally occurring cabbage palms lie in North Carolina. In 1819, F.A. Michaux wrote that palmettos were were "first seen about Cape Hatteras, in the 34th degree of latitude." The actual Cape is above 35 degrees, so he may have been speaking imprecisely, which would place his first cabbage palms in the vicinity of Bald Head Island, further south.

Tony Avent, from Juniper Level Botanic Garden/Plant Delights Nursery says "Those who have studied Sabal palmetto in the wild have noted that the earliest populations to flower are those from the most northern, naturally-occurring population on North Carolina’s Bald Head Island."

Gary Hollar, who studies native NC palms, says "Bald Head Island, NC is the most northern native stand of Sabal palmetto.".

The USDA has stated there is a disjunct native population in the Cape Hatteras area.  I would not be surprised if this disjunct population was extended up to the Norfolk, VA area.  Some areas of the disjunct population may have been taken out by hurricanes or flooding.

Edited January 21, 2024 by RFun

[RJ]

7 hours ago, ChicagoPalma said:

I didn't wrap my windmill, I just put lights on it and put an insulating box over it. The air temperature in there is very warm and never goes below freezing. Of course with a larger enclosure heating will be a problem, but I can build a 20ft light weight enclosure that can last for years, problem is where to store it. Sabals would be easier on the other hand. I wonder why james palms sabal palmetto never made it, why get a hurricane cut sabal or regenerated sabal if it takes so long to grow back?

Wrap, box… however you want to do it. They don’t winter well like some other palms. 
 

his died from being boxed in. Not enough heat to recover etc…. Sabal’s need heat and lots of it. You box them in for months at 40* and you’re asking for trouble. Pretty sure it was fungal that finally got his. 

[ChicagoPalma]

2 hours ago, RJ said:

Wrap, box… however you want to do it. They don’t winter well like some other palms. 
 

his died from being boxed in. Not enough heat to recover etc…. Sabal’s need heat and lots of it. You box them in for months at 40* and you’re asking for trouble. Pretty sure it was fungal that finally got his. 

I had 5 consecutive days above 110F last summer, and that was a La Nina, I think it will be enough.

[Sabal King]

7 hours ago, ChicagoPalma said:

I had 5 consecutive days above 110F last summer, and that was a La Nina, I think it will be enough.

No… no it’s not…

[RJ]

6 hours ago, ChicagoPalma said:

I had 5 consecutive days above 110F last summer, and that was a La Nina, I think it will be enough.

Hardly…  that’s 1.3% of the year. Sabal’s need months of high heat , particularly at night. That’s why they grow like slugs in California. They have plenty of heat during the day but it’s dry, so the nights drop off considerably more then the humid SE. 

[SeanK]

22 hours ago, RFun said:

I haven't seen any convincing information on that.  I'm sticking with the Norfolk, VA area.

Wilmington 

[ChicagoPalma]

1 hour ago, RJ said:

Hardly…  that’s 1.3% of the year. Sabal’s need months of high heat , particularly at night. That’s why they grow like slugs in California. They have plenty of heat during the day but it’s dry, so the nights drop off considerably more then the humid SE. 

Yeah im not sure anymore. I guess we will see, Ima go try growing a sabal minor this year, guess we will see if it likes it or not!

[ChicagoPalma]

2 hours ago, Sabal King said:

No… no it’s not…

You know, im not a big grower of sabals, I only had a sabal minor I got from a friend, but I left it out when our first freeze came, low was 24F. Brought it inside. That seedling spear-pulled a week later. Not very tough.

[RFun]

26 minutes ago, ChicagoPalma said:

Yeah im not sure anymore. I guess we will see, Ima go try growing a sabal minor this year, guess we will see if it likes it or not!

Sabals don't require a ton of heat, just enough.  They will grow faster in hotter regions.

[Dwarf Fan]

40 minutes ago, ChicagoPalma said:

You know, im not a big grower of sabals, I only had a sabal minor I got from a friend, but I left it out when our first freeze came, low was 24F. Brought it inside. That seedling spear-pulled a week later. Not very tough.

Put them in GROUND (not a pot that will freeze) I planted (2) 1 Gal sized S. minors both were only in ground for single digit months when Palmageddon’21 hit and they got covered in snow for a week and took a low of 2F both have been dug up, transplanted and are alive today in my current garden. S. minors are VERY tough.

[Sabal King]

8 minutes ago, Dwarf Fan said:

Put them in GROUND (not a pot that will freeze) I planted (2) 1 Gal sized S. minors both were only in ground for single digit months when Palmageddon’21 hit and they got covered in snow for a week and took a low of 2F both have been dug up, transplanted and are alive today in my current garden. S. minors are VERY tough.

Dan I implore you not to get sucked into a conversation with this kid.  He's the same one who argued with me and many others here last year that there are mature Sabals, thriving in Chicago, and the surrounding suburbs... The area hit -25ft his winter, and worse in some spots, so I am waiting for some spring pictures, aftermath photos of these Sabals thriving.  Honestly, don't bother.. You will get sucked in, and see him on multiple threads spouting the craziest things and no one seems to really say enough is enough because it'll confuse new, impressionable up and coming palm growers.

Sabals minors everyone knows are tough as nails, and we don't even need to start a discussion on that to the contrary, it's just dumb and a waste of breath.  I'm waiting for pictures of Chicago Sabals.  Put up or shut up, please.

[Dwarf Fan]

1 hour ago, Sabal King said:

Dan I implore you not to get sucked into a conversation with this kid.  He's the same one who argued with me and many others here last year that there are mature Sabals, thriving in Chicago, and the surrounding suburbs... The area hit -25ft his winter, and worse in some spots, so I am waiting for some spring pictures, aftermath photos of these Sabals thriving.  Honestly, don't bother.. You will get sucked in, and see him on multiple threads spouting the craziest things and no one seems to really say enough is enough because it'll confuse new, impressionable up and coming palm growers.

Sabals minors everyone knows are tough as nails, and we don't even need to start a discussion on that to the contrary, it's just dumb and a waste of breath.  I'm waiting for pictures of Chicago Sabals.  Put up or shut up, please.

HaHa… I have read enough ChicagoPalma posts to know that he is very young and full of more “exuberance” than “experience” to put it mildly. Sometimes I don’t bother to reply to all of his “flights of fancy” but this one I had to nip in the bud (or frond). 

I think that is why post count, IPS membership and points score from posting come into play when judging quality of advice for new members and if they are not intelligent enough to weigh those factors into whose advice they listen to more closely than they won’t be articulate enough to be good at this hobby anyway. Just my $0.02.

Give the youngin’ some time to kill a few Palm trees and live and learn, he will either come around or stop posting, we were all young and idealistic once, until the painful truth of reality tempered our life with the wisdom of experience.

[ChicagoPalma]

2 hours ago, Dwarf Fan said:

HaHa… I have read enough ChicagoPalma posts to know that he is very young and full of more “exuberance” than “experience” to put it mildly. Sometimes I don’t bother to reply to all of his “flights of fancy” but this one I had to nip in the bud (or frond). 

I think that is why post count, IPS membership and points score from posting come into play when judging quality of advice for new members and if they are not intelligent enough to weigh those factors into whose advice they listen to more closely than they won’t be articulate enough to be good at this hobby anyway. Just my $0.02.

Give the youngin’ some time to kill a few Palm trees and live and learn, he will either come around or stop posting, we were all young and idealistic once, until the painful truth of reality tempered our life with the wisdom of experience.

Eh, what i spewed about were yuccas but to me they looked like sabal minors from afar. Of course I was unexperienced then, but I have more advice from people who have been growing palms longer than I have been alive nowadays! I have never grown sabals, expect that one sabal minor. I've only grown robusta, filifera, filibusta, and like two trachy seedlings unknown origin. So my mind likes to wander and think of lots of different things, but for now, trachys is what i stick with, unless my nursery doesn't have them.

[ChicagoPalma]

2 hours ago, Sabal King said:

Dan I implore you not to get sucked into a conversation with this kid.  He's the same one who argued with me and many others here last year that there are mature Sabals, thriving in Chicago, and the surrounding suburbs... The area hit -25ft his winter, and worse in some spots, so I am waiting for some spring pictures, aftermath photos of these Sabals thriving.  Honestly, don't bother.. You will get sucked in, and see him on multiple threads spouting the craziest things and no one seems to really say enough is enough because it'll confuse new, impressionable up and coming palm growers.

Sabals minors everyone knows are tough as nails, and we don't even need to start a discussion on that to the contrary, it's just dumb and a waste of breath.  I'm waiting for pictures of Chicago Sabals.  Put up or shut up, please.

Patience and time is needed for everyone to gain wisdom. So don't get too cocky thinking I know nothing, that can change over time. But then again, I'm just a dumb kid.

[Dwarf Fan]

16 minutes ago, ChicagoPalma said:

Patience and time is needed for everyone to gain wisdom. So don't get too cocky thinking I know nothing, that can change over time. But then again, I'm just a dumb kid.

We all must learn to crawl, before we learn to walk, and then run.

Ask, listen, learn and grow.