Polar Vortex

[Robert Cade Ross]

additional sabals on a separate planting project ( west nasa parkway ) at least 100 will be planted I assume. cidp looking better alrupdate on the medical center planting still tied up .

[Xenon]

11 hours ago, Cade said:

lol 

You laugh but you know it's true! But the irony of the street names below LOL "FALLEN PALMS", "BURNING PALMS"😆

will be there in person soon, stay tuned. this was in cold west Houston btw

[Xenon]

Well it's still pretty palmy. Westchase area today 

 

[amh]

On 1/17/2024 at 1:07 PM, amh said:

Currently 39F after about 9F last night with 3^1/2 + days  below freezing. The sabals are unfazed and it appears my unprotected Chamaedorea radicalis are okay.

I'll know more in a few days.

An update on the three C. radicalis. There was latent cold damage and all three completely defoliated, but all three survived and are growing.

[JLM]

On 4/12/2024 at 4:59 PM, MarcusH said:

Come on seriously,  how desperate can you be to keep this palm alive ? Lol . That's why I don’t bother growing Queens anymore because they take ages (2years) to get a decent crown if it doesn't get down close to 20f.  

I disagree. Mine were defoliated in the 2022 Christmas Freeze (min 19F, trunk protected), by December 2023 they were both back to looking fantastic again. (Granted, they have both been defoliated again but are putting on good growth now. Low was 18F with trunk protection again).
 

Starting with the front yard Queen. First pic was when it was cleaned up on February 18 2023. Next pic is on Jan 2 2024. I had not gotten a pic of it in December, but it still looked pretty good.

Pic 1:

 

Pic 2:

 

Next is the back yard Queen. First pic was taken February 18 2023, the day it was cleaned up. It had NOTHING, much less to start with than the front yard Queen. Second pic is December 3 2023, with a crown that looks pretty good.
 

Pic 1:


 

Pic 2:


 

So basically, Queens can recover much faster than you think. A Queen that receives no help in its recovery process will obviously take much longer than Queens like mine, which were helped thru the process and were back to looking pretty good again by the end of the growing season.

[Robert Cade Ross]

People are definitely buying palms like crazy here at the HGC ….

 

sold about 6 (12’ ) tall queen palms today 

tons of pigmy dates & a pair of  king palms 🙃

[MarcusH]

23 hours ago, JLM said:

I disagree. Mine were defoliated in the 2022 Christmas Freeze (min 19F, trunk protected), by December 2023 they were both back to looking fantastic again. (Granted, they have both been defoliated again but are putting on good growth now. Low was 18F with trunk protection again).
 

Starting with the front yard Queen. First pic was when it was cleaned up on February 18 2023. Next pic is on Jan 2 2024. I had not gotten a pic of it in December, but it still looked pretty good.

Pic 1:

 

Pic 2:

 

Next is the back yard Queen. First pic was taken February 18 2023, the day it was cleaned up. It had NOTHING, much less to start with than the front yard Queen. Second pic is December 3 2023, with a crown that looks pretty good.
 

Pic 1:


 

Pic 2:


 

So basically, Queens can recover much faster than you think. A Queen that receives no help in its recovery process will obviously take much longer than Queens like mine, which were helped thru the process and were back to looking pretty good again by the end of the growing season.

Sure you can help but you're describing exactly what I was thinking . A queen looks "good" with maybe 6 fronds by the end of the growing season . Can't compare its recovery process with a Washie .  Takes two growing seasons to get a full crown . 

[JLM]

42 minutes ago, MarcusH said:

Sure you can help but you're describing exactly what I was thinking . A queen looks "good" with maybe 6 fronds by the end of the growing season . Can't compare its recovery process with a Washie .  Takes two growing seasons to get a full crown . 

I didn’t compare it to the recovery process of a washy. Obviously it can’t be compared to that, that’s just an unfair comparison. Queen fronds take longer to crank out compared to washy fronds, since washy fronds can be 5 ft long and queen fronds up to 16 ft long at maturity according to Palmpedia. There’s no wonder it takes longer for a queen to recover a full crown compared to a washy. You have to remember that palms are not exactly instant, you can’t expect most palms to fully recover from defoliation in a single growing season, it’s just not reasonable. Some people love their palms and just don’t happen to live in the correct climate for them, so they go out of their way to protect them when the time comes to make sure they come back during the summer. It’s all part of zone pushing, and some get a thrill out of it. Some don’t, and maybe they should just move to a warmer climate if they wanna grow those more tender palms with no interruptions. Otherwise maybe they should just stick to deciduous trees, sabal minor, and needle palms 🤷‍♂️
 

I want my queens to stay alive, they don’t necessarily have to have a full crown to be considered beautiful in my perspective. Would I prefer a full crown? Sure, but I also know these palms will never look “perfect” by any definition in my barely z9a climate, and I’m 100% okay with that.

[amh]

Ever since the great freeze of '21, I have lost 10 of my 11 loquat trees to subsequent freezes and droughts. My one surviving tree flowered and began producing fruit late last fall and with the mild winter, I had hopes of having the fruit mature. Well, then the ol' polar vortex arrived and brought temperatures into the single digits killing a bunch of branches and surely killing any developing fruit.  But, it turns out that some of the fruits survive. You may ask "what does this have to do with palm?" Well, the leaves created a micro climate that was warm enough to allow fruit to survive. So, the moral of the story is to not overly prune your palms if you live in a cold area.  Allow the dead or dying fronds to insulate the crown and trunk.

 

[Xenon]

The loquat crop in Houston this year is pretty decent... pkeasant surprise considering it hit upper teens/20F in January. Many trees are loaded with fruit and nearly every tree has at least some fruit.

I found a local tree growing between the road and sidewalk that was just absolutely loaded with DELICIOUS syrupy sweet sub acid white fleshed no fuzz fragrant fruit. I snagged a cutting to graft to my tree (which was intended to be a screen/canopy for more tender stuff). Hoping it takes! First time eating and grafting loquat. I had no idea they could be that good, thought it was mostly ornamental considering all of the loaded trees that seemingly nobody eats. 

 

Oh and palms, there's a (or what's supposed to be) Livistona saribus next to the loquat. It spear pulled in February but pushed through just fine. Covered it with a cardboard box. 

 

[amh]

12 minutes ago, Xenon said:

The loquat crop in Houston this year is pretty decent... pkeasant surprise considering it hit upper teens/20F in January. Many trees are loaded with fruit and nearly every tree has at least some fruit.

I found a local tree growing between the road and sidewalk that was just absolutely loaded with DELICIOUS syrupy sweet sub acid white fleshed no fuzz fragrant fruit. I snagged a cutting to graft to my tree (which was intended to be a screen/canopy for more tender stuff). Hoping it takes! First time eating and grafting loquat. I had no idea they could be that good, thought it was mostly ornamental considering all of the loaded trees that seemingly nobody eats. 

 

Oh and palms, there's a (or what's supposed to be) Livistona saribus next to the loquat. It spear pulled in February but pushed through just fine. Covered it with a cardboard box. 

 

You should have kept some seeds from the white fleshed tree, I have found that a loquat can produce fruit in as little as 3 years.  The ornamental types have okay fruit, but I grow these as specimen trees or as a green fence. I have considered buying the white flesh cultivars, but I haven't been able to mentally justify spending money for a tree that will only produce fruit every 5 years, if it survives.

 

The livistona saribus looks good, especially if it was damaged enough for the spear to pull.

[Xenon]

7 minutes ago, amh said:

You should have kept some seeds from the white fleshed tree, I have found that a loquat can produce fruit in as little as 3 years. 

Still a crapshoot if it tastes like the parent 😄. Pretty sure it was a seedling tree too. Some others I tried this week were not as good. Apparently loquat is pretty easy to graft and there are at least a million loquat trees around Houston so just think of all of the diversity that's out there waiting to be sampled! I think I found a new hobby hahaha 

[amh]

6 minutes ago, Xenon said:

Still a crapshoot if it tastes like the parent 😄. Pretty sure it was a seedling tree too. Some others I tried this week were not as good. Apparently loquat is pretty easy to graft and there are at least a million loquat trees around Houston so just think of all of the diversity that's out there waiting to be sampled! I think I found a new hobby hahaha 

I've found that the seed grown trees have fruit that taste like their parent, but this could just be the default flavor for loquats. I propagate most of my trees from seed to have diversity, so maybe some day I'll have a new cultivar. 

 

[Chester B]

I'm really surprised to hear about these loquat dying or getting damaged.  They grow all the way up into BC, Canada, I guess the ones around here aren't as used to the cold.  I already bought one this winter, it's a "Gold Nugget" which I have knew was a good all around for eating.  It has much smaller leaves, like 50% smaller than the unnamed loquats I'm seeing at Lowes.  The ones at Lowes are crazy looking and makes me tempted to get another.

[Xenon]

1 hour ago, Chester B said:

I'm really surprised to hear about these loquat dying or getting damaged.  They grow all the way up into BC, Canada, I guess the ones around here aren't as used to the cold.  I already bought one this winter, it's a "Gold Nugget" which I have knew was a good all around for eating.  It has much smaller leaves, like 50% smaller than the unnamed loquats I'm seeing at Lowes.  The ones at Lowes are crazy looking and makes me tempted to get another.

Loquat never gets damaged in Houston, it's just the fruit/flowers that get damaged in one of the uber cold winters. The biggest problem with loquat here is fire blight. 

Apparently something near zero in Dallas and outside of Austin/Hill Country will do them in though 

[amh]

3 hours ago, Chester B said:

I'm really surprised to hear about these loquat dying or getting damaged.  They grow all the way up into BC, Canada, I guess the ones around here aren't as used to the cold.  I already bought one this winter, it's a "Gold Nugget" which I have knew was a good all around for eating.  It has much smaller leaves, like 50% smaller than the unnamed loquats I'm seeing at Lowes.  The ones at Lowes are crazy looking and makes me tempted to get another.

It is a combination of drought stress and cold. I was below zero in 2021, the summer high temperatures have been over 100F, sustained for 3 months and the yearly rain deficits can be measured in feet. On a normal year, new, immature leaves can be damaged around 15F, but small branches are only damaged below 10F. My trees survived 2021, but were severely damaged. The following winters and summers just compounded the damage.

2 hours ago, Xenon said:

Loquat never gets damaged in Houston, it's just the fruit/flowers that get damaged in one of the uber cold winters. The biggest problem with loquat here is fire blight. 

Apparently something near zero in Dallas and outside of Austin/Hill Country will do them in though 

Yes, fireblight is the biggest problem for loquats in Texas. The late fall/winter bloom time helps prevent transmission, but it does still occur. 

The reality is that loquats grow and mature so fast, that a severe freeze every 30 to 70 years is inconsequential. 

[Robert Cade Ross]

Webster dacty  flowering

[MarcusH]

I was wondering what temperature lows some of ya'll in colder climates already experienced, recently.  

Looks like Texas "hopefully " gets a break from recent artic outbreaks according to some winter forecasts. Would be nice to see my Robusta not defoliating this winter.  Crossing fingers. 

What are your predictions for this winter ? 

[DTS]

15 minutes ago, MarcusH said:

I was wondering what temperature lows some of ya'll in colder climates already experienced, recently.  

Looks like Texas "hopefully " gets a break from recent artic outbreaks according to some winter forecasts. Would be nice to see my Robusta not defoliating this winter.  Crossing fingers. 

What are your predictions for this winter ? 

so far i've only gotten down to the low 30's a couple of times which finally killed the leaves on my cannas and colocasia and alocasia. I'm hoping for this winter I don't get hit with another big artic blast bringing it down into the negative teens... so far i've been lucky for the past few years.

[PaPalmTrees]

It's only gone down in the  30s a couple times and there's been a couple light frost my cannas and 
Colocasias have some burnt leaves but they are still growing and flowering.

[Chester B]

Toronto experienced its coldest night of this fall last night dropping to 2.6C/37F.

My in laws live about 1.5 hours north of Toronto and have dropped just below freezing a couple of nights so far.

[Palmerr]

On 1/9/2024 at 2:04 PM, teddytn said:

Tentatively looking at negatives again here for the second year in a row. Perfect example of why people should take the zone changes with a grain of salt. We moved to “7b” and are looking at two 6b winters in a row

Bro i saw this and freaked the frick out but then i realized this was in january. LOL

[Palmerr]

Tempearture outlook for the entire winter is above average temps across the Continental US With texas being very above average for the next 3 months. NoCal Has equal chances with the northern half of the west coast and All the very northern states point west From michigan Also havin equal chances of above or below average temps

[jwitt]

Weird monsoon and summer temperatures here remind me somewhat of the eighties.

Just saying......

[Palmerr]

[Palmerr]

2 minutes ago, jwitt said:

Weird monsoon and summer temperatures here remind me somewhat of the eighties.

Just saying......

Lol well it will be an above average winter for most of us well this is percent chance but ya know its leaning above. That does not mean that the extreme low will be high too this is only for the day to day temps.

[DTS]

A brief warm spell is making it's way up here for some reason-

[jwitt]

31 minutes ago, Palmerr said:

Lol well it will be an above average winter for most of us well this is percent chance but ya know its leaning above. That does not mean that the extreme low will be high too this is only for the day to day temps.

They cannot predict weather 7 days out accurately.  Just saying....

[Fusca]

I wonder why this thread wasn't posted here:

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/forum/10-weather-climate/

@kinzyjr

[jwitt]

2 minutes ago, Fusca said:

I wonder why this thread wasn't posted here:

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/forum/10-weather-climate/

@kinzyjr

Because from my personal life experience sitting in a place with a predicted highest chance of a warm winter, and this past summer, it reminds me of the 1980's.  Even before the NOAA prediction came out.   Most Arctic outbreaks slipped east of NM. 

Actually kind of fitting discussion under a header titled "POLAR VORTEX" and considering where that specific polar vortex hit. 

[RFun]

On 4/19/2024 at 12:09 AM, Robert Cade Ross said:

additional sabals on a separate planting project ( west nasa parkway ) at least 100 will be planted I assume. cidp looking better alrupdate on the medical center planting still tied up .

I like the two pronged Sago look.

[MarcusH]

3 hours ago, Fusca said:

I wonder why this thread wasn't posted here:

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/forum/10-weather-climate/

@kinzyjr

Honestly,  I don't go outside of "cold hardy palms" much at all. I thought ,since we have this polar vortex thread we can cover everything winter related on here. 

[MarcusH]

3 hours ago, jwitt said:

Because from my personal life experience sitting in a place with a predicted highest chance of a warm winter, and this past summer, it reminds me of the 1980's.  Even before the NOAA prediction came out.   Most Arctic outbreaks slipped east of NM. 

Actually kind of fitting discussion under a header titled "POLAR VORTEX" and considering where that specific polar vortex hit. 

Jim, you just opened a can of warms lol . I hope you're wrong rrrrrr

[RFun]

3 minutes ago, MarcusH said:

Honestly,  I don't go outside of "cold hardy palms" much at all. I thought ,since we have this polar vortex thread we can cover everything winter related on here. 

Makes sense.  The U.S. has a good share of those "cold hardy palms" lol.

[kinzyjr]

3 hours ago, Fusca said:

I wonder why this thread wasn't posted here:

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/forum/10-weather-climate/

@kinzyjr

Some threads teeter on the line of belonging in one area over another.  I hadn't moved it since it primarily revolved around planting choices changing due to the recent weather events, at least as I understood it.  Others that get moved are more cut and dried, like posting a thread dedicated to a plant that is not a palm outside of the "Tropical Plants Other Than Palms" section.  Cycad lovers have probably noticed a lot of cycad threads getting moved to that sub-forum.  When in doubt, though, my tendency is to leave the thread where it is.

[jwitt]

31 minutes ago, MarcusH said:

Jim, you just opened a can of warms lol . I hope you're wrong rrrrrr

I have had the "vibe" for multiple months now.  I hope I am wrong.

But I see this pic,  this past summer, etc ... I get 80s vibes where things tracked up and over the SW.  Sometimes ending in Texas or further east. 

My chile is still blooming, incredibly late(for Rio Rancho).  In the eighties(I won't say what year), I had tomatoes until Christmas(in Rio Rancho )

Just a feeling. 

 

[MarcusH]

1 hour ago, RFun said:

Makes sense.  The U.S. has a good share of those "cold hardy palms" lol.

Exactly.  Here we get deep into the subject other than just posting current temperatures and that's it. Everyone of us fears the Polar Vortex as much as a major hurricane . 

[Fusca]

3 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

Some threads teeter on the line of belonging in one area over another.  I hadn't moved it since it primarily revolved around planting choices changing due to the recent weather events, at least as I understood it.  Others that get moved are more cut and dried, like posting a thread dedicated to a plant that is not a palm outside of the "Tropical Plants Other Than Palms" section.  Cycad lovers have probably noticed a lot of cycad threads getting moved to that sub-forum.  When in doubt, though, my tendency is to leave the thread where it is.

👍 Good explanation, this thread is probably a good example of teetering.

[jwitt]

14 hours ago, MarcusH said:

I was wondering what temperature lows some of ya'll in colder climates already experienced, recently.  

Looks like Texas "hopefully " gets a break from recent artic outbreaks according to some winter forecasts. Would be nice to see my Robusta not defoliating this winter.  Crossing fingers. 

What are your predictions for this winter ? 

Upper forties. Freeze or near so Thursday.  Very warm and late freeze(if it happens) for here.  Actually looked, saw forty on the 23rd. 

Stopped watering my palms the first week of October(my normal schedule) to put in "slow down mode" for the winter.

[jwitt]

This thread has nearly 800 posts, 34000 views in ten months! Wow!

And I learned an avocado survived 23f.