Polar Vortex

[Xenon]

3 hours ago, _nevi said:

If we want to be strict like Marcus, then it would be smarter for casual plantings (low maintenance gardeners, public spaces, etc) to stick with sabals (palmetto, mexicana, etc), or anything of similar zone 8 hardiness.

Meanwhile, the tender stuff like queens should be left to the enthusiasts that can more easily handle the ups and downs.

Keep it like that for the rest of the decade, while monitoring the weather to see if it gets it's act together. If things go well by 2030, then the envelope can be pushed more in terms of reintroducing more tender stuff. This is a slow and steady monitoring approach, similar to the monitoring of cancer after treatment (i.e. patients are monitored periodically after treatment, only being declared "cured" if they remain NED for past the 5-year mark).

Completely disagree with the analogy, there is no "treatment" or pattern that leads to statistically normal, below, or above average winter lows. Expecting the next few years to be cold simply because the past 4 winters have been cold or vice versa is a fools errand. It's like gambling and expecting your win/lose streak to last. 

Every winter season itself is practically a coin flip. There is no statistical basis on waiting until 2030 or any other other arbitrary cutoff to establish an expectation for the future. Outliers can occur at any time. 

What has changed over time is the average itself (increased) which also shifts the threshold for constitutes an outlier. The "cold" outliers have been getting warmer over the past 100 years. Single digits in Houston is still possible but the statistical probability of such an event has decreased with time. 

 

Edited March 14 by Xenon

[_nevi]

17 hours ago, Xenon said:

Completely disagree with the analogy, there is no "treatment" or pattern that leads to statistically normal, below, or above average winter lows. Expecting the next few years to be cold simply because the past 4 winters have been cold or vice versa is a fools errand. It's like gambling and expecting your win/lose streak to last. 

Every winter season itself is practically a coin flip. There is no statistical basis on waiting until 2030 or any other other arbitrary cutoff to establish an expectation for the future. Outliers can occur at any time. 

What has changed over time is the average itself (increased) which also shifts the threshold for constitutes an outlier. The "cold" outliers have been getting warmer over the past 100 years. Single digits in Houston is still possible but the statistical probability of such an event has decreased with time. 

 

I understand all this, of course. Actually, my post was slightly in jest: I was poking fun at the "quarrels" that you had earlier with Marcus. 🥰

You mentioned in a previous post new queen plantings around IAH. While I still say it is wise for public areas to use a "hardy base" of sabals and such, the return of citrus trees and queen palms across the Houston area is just as much my desire as it is yours ...

But, I DO think that a few year string of mild winters can help boost confidence levels across the populace in terms of replanting proliferation. The problem with Feb 2021 was the greater publicity that it garnered compared to Dec 1989 and other deeper past freeze events: the publicity was a given with the whole energy grid debacle, along with the general increases in viral/trending mobile social media in 2010s onward. Can't mention Texas winter anymore without memes, one-liners, etc regarding power outages. All of that stigma plays a huge role in slowing subtropical/tropical replanting proliferations in Houston/other areas of Texas ... especially if plantings in the past came from the "transplants" that moved to the area through the 90s-onward growth phases.

Edited March 14 by _nevi

[Robert Cade Ross]

The foxtails in my neighborhood have been replaced with 5 queens palms maybe they will survive winter of 2024 haha 

[Xenon]

3 hours ago, _nevi said:

I understand all this, of course. Actually, my post was slightly in jest: I was poking fun at the "quarrels" that you had earlier with Marcus. 🥰

You mentioned in a previous post new queen plantings around IAH. While I still say it is wise for public areas to use a "hardy base" of sabals and such, the return of citrus trees and queen palms across the Houston area is just as much my desire as it is yours ...

But, I DO think that a few year string of mild winters can help boost confidence levels across the populace in terms of replanting proliferation. The problem with Feb 2021 was the greater publicity that it garnered compared to Dec 1989 and other deeper past freeze events: the publicity was a given with the whole energy grid debacle, along with the general increases in viral/trending mobile social media in 2010s onward. Can't mention Texas winter anymore without memes, one-liners, etc regarding power outages. All of that stigma plays a huge role in slowing subtropical/tropical replanting proliferations in Houston/other areas of Texas ... especially if plantings in the past came from the "transplants" that moved to the area through the 90s-onward growth phases.

Oh the fear of 1989/80s in general is well known among old timers, zone 9 plantings like citrus did not really ramp in in the Houston area until near the end of the 90s into the 2000s due to trauma from the 80s. 

I survey residential areas in the Houston Area for work and there is no shortage of new subtropical plantings in both established and new neighborhoods. The big box stores are pumping the stuff out so it's not unexpected. Everytime Costco gets a citrus shipment, they are sold out within 24 hours haha. What people share or talk about in bubbles online does not always reflect the reality on the ground. 

I met a really nice woman in NW Houston this week who threw orange seeds in her front yard around 2000 and the tree started fruiting 5 years later which later became bushels of fruit each year. The tree has frozen to the ground 3 times in the past 5 years now, but it is already making a 3 foot comeback. Hopefully she gets tons of oranges again in just a few years. 

False confidence from a string of mild winters is just the same as false confidence from a string of cold winters. I have much greater confidence in a string of relatively average winters 😄. Mild is just the unexpected cherry on top.

Edited March 15 by Xenon

[Matthew92]

2 hours ago, Xenon said:

Oh the fear of 1989/80s in general is well known among old timers, zone 9 plantings like citrus did not really ramp in in the Houston area until near the end of the 90s into the 2000s due to trauma from the 80s. 

I survey residential areas in the Houston Area for work and there is no shortage of new subtropical plantings in both established and new neighborhoods. The big box stores are pumping the stuff out so it's not unexpected. Everytime Costco gets a citrus shipment, they are sold out within 24 hours haha. What people share or talk about in bubbles online does not always reflect the reality on the ground. 

I met a really nice woman in NW Houston this week who threw orange seeds in her front yard around 2000 and the tree started fruiting 5 years later which later became bushels of fruit each year. The tree has frozen to the ground 3 times in the past 5 years now, but it is already making a 3 foot comeback. Hopefully she gets tons of oranges again in just a few years. 

False confidence from a string of mild winters is just the same as false confidence from a string of cold winters. I have much greater confidence in a string of relatively average winters 😄. Mild is just the unexpected cherry on top.

I think I witnessed a similar phenomenon here in Northwest FL. Moving here in the early 2000's, you hardly saw any zone pushing in people's yards and the palms seen in the landscape were almost exclusively Sabal, Butia, European Fan Palm, Saw Palmetto, Phoenix (canariensis/dactylifera) with the only tropical looking plants being things like Philodendron selloum, Fatsia, Nandina, and Aucuba. Around 2006 period Phoenix robelenii started being planted a lot and there were a few odd queens appearing here and there. Then I remember in 2007 or 2008 hearing of someone in the area who had a Clementine tree that was fruiting, and it blew my mind that citrus survived here. I had never seen or heard of one being in the area before. They were quite a rarity back then, and I recall this kind of unspoken mentality that this area was WAY too far north for citrus (the whole thing about orange groves dying as far south as Orlando from the freezes of the 80's was still talked about frequently). But as you mention, it seems like the big box stores helped create an explosion of them being proliferated in the area. Now you see people slapping them in left and right all over the place. Christmas 2022 killed many small trees and even mature ones (or it sent them into a decline). But yet, the big box stores continue to pump them out like crazy. It is a little disconcerting, as I know this can allow a hotbed for maladies like greening/citrus psyllid to proliferate. Before Christmas 2022, I noticed some trees in the area that were oddly yellow and one mature tree I was almost convinced had greening as the leaves were mottled both yellow and green (that tree ended up being killed in that freeze: maybe thankfully). 

[BigBilly]

On 1/18/2024 at 5:50 PM, BigBilly said:

My Sabal Minor is yet to spear pull

It's nearly been 2 months, The sabal minor did not spear pull and the Trachy doesn't appear to have any new growth.. Should I be worried? 

[MarcusH]

13 hours ago, Xenon said:

Oh the fear of 1989/80s in general is well known among old timers, zone 9 plantings like citrus did not really ramp in in the Houston area until near the end of the 90s into the 2000s due to trauma from the 80s. 

I survey residential areas in the Houston Area for work and there is no shortage of new subtropical plantings in both established and new neighborhoods. The big box stores are pumping the stuff out so it's not unexpected. Everytime Costco gets a citrus shipment, they are sold out within 24 hours haha. What people share or talk about in bubbles online does not always reflect the reality on the ground. 

I met a really nice woman in NW Houston this week who threw orange seeds in her front yard around 2000 and the tree started fruiting 5 years later which later became bushels of fruit each year. The tree has frozen to the ground 3 times in the past 5 years now, but it is already making a 3 foot comeback. Hopefully she gets tons of oranges again in just a few years. 

False confidence from a string of mild winters is just the same as false confidence from a string of cold winters. I have much greater confidence in a string of relatively average winters 😄. Mild is just the unexpected cherry on top.

Each to their own Jonathan , I would never tell you what to plant or what not to plant. I like Queens as much as you do , don't get me wrong please.  I know you're a person who don't mind to reset the button a few times but not everyone wants to do the same.  Digging out palm trees aren't fun.

Those warm cycles already existed before the 1980s. I agree with you about the increase of average temperature over the decades,  yes mother earth is warming up but we still didn't get a break from severe hard freezes as a matter of fact they're increasing.  

Where I'm not agreeing with you is that you're trying to tell us that we're good to plant Queens in Houston.  If Queens would be a long-term survivor we would see them after 2021, all through the 1980s and before . I'm positive some already were killed in 2010 (21f) and in 2018 (19f) as well.  Queens aren't reliable in Houston!!! There's enough evidence.  Don't you want to see your planted palm tree growing old with you ? 

 

[Robert Cade Ross]

4 hours ago, MarcusH said:

Each to their own Jonathan , I would never tell you what to plant or what not to plant. I like Queens as much as you do , don't get me wrong please.  I know you're a person who don't mind to reset the button a few times but not everyone wants to do the same.  Digging out palm trees aren't fun.

Those warm cycles already existed before the 1980s. I agree with you about the increase of average temperature over the decades,  yes mother earth is warming up but we still didn't get a break from severe hard freezes as a matter of fact they're increasing.  

Where I'm not agreeing with you is that you're trying to tell us that we're good to plant Queens in Houston.  If Queens would be a long-term survivor we would see them after 2021, all through the 1980s and before . I'm positive some already were killed in 2010 (21f) and in 2018 (19f) as well.  Queens aren't reliable in Houston!!! There's enough evidence.  Don't you want to see your planted palm tree growing old with you ? 

 

Mule palms to the rescue 😺🏆💪🏼

[Chester B]

I was down in Galveston today.  Tons of palms (obviously) but didn't see anything all that interesting, kind of the usual suspects.  I passed a house with Bananas and they had been fried over winter and each pseudostem had one full leaf each.

Stopped in at Tom's Thumb by Cornelius Nursery and no exotic palms.  They had sea grapes, but the rest of the plants were what I would find around here.  HomeDepot was a big disappointment too.  

My local Kroger is selling 6 foot queens now.

[Xenon]

3 minutes ago, Chester B said:

I was down in Galveston today.  Tons of palms (obviously) but didn't see anything all that interesting, kind of the usual suspects.  I passed a house with Bananas and they had been fried over winter and each pseudostem had one full leaf each.

Stopped in at Tom's Thumb by Cornelius Nursery and no exotic palms.  They had sea grapes, but the rest of the plants were what I would find around here.  HomeDepot was a big disappointment too.  

My local Kroger is selling 6 foot queens now.

Haha I was in Galveston this morning too. Nothing to see after the freeze in 2021, just a shell of it's former glory (sigh). At least there are still Bismarckia around 

[Chester B]

3 minutes ago, Xenon said:

Haha I was in Galveston this morning too. Nothing to see after the freeze in 2021, just a shell of it's former glory (sigh). At least there are still Bismarckia around 

That's funny.  My Mom is visiting and she watches one of the HGTV shows that films there.  So we went down and randomly drove around.  Pretty foggy/misty though.  Way, way bigger than I was expecting.  

[Kenc]

38 minutes ago, Xenon said:

Haha I was in Galveston this morning too. Nothing to see after the freeze in 2021, just a shell of it's former glory (sigh). At least there are still Bismarckia around 

Houston and Galveston looked really tropical before. I wish people would start planting tropical and palm tree again.

[MarcusH]

5 hours ago, Cade said:

Mule palms to the rescue 😺🏆💪🏼

There you go and they look even better . 

[MarcusH]

3 hours ago, Chester B said:

That's funny.  My Mom is visiting and she watches one of the HGTV shows that films there.  So we went down and randomly drove around.  Pretty foggy/misty though.  Way, way bigger than I was expecting.  

I was in Oregon last week I saw some Windmill palms at some places near I-5 . What a beautiful place you lived in.  Was in Portland and drove down to California. 

[Robert Cade Ross]

Happy and flowering Ribbon palm 

Friendswood TX zone 9B 

[Xenon]

Came across this Livistona decora in SW Houston today. Seems to have been installed in 2021 to replace two big queens. Miss the freeway plantings 

[Las Palmas Norte]

Polar Vortex returns across a huge portion of North America.

Everything on the back side of the L line is in the icy grip of spring 2024. 😲

 

[MarcusH]

On 3/20/2024 at 9:17 AM, Las Palmas Norte said:

Polar Vortex returns across a huge portion of North America.

Everything on the back side of the L line is in the icy grip of spring 2024. 😲

 

I'm in Portland Oregon again. So far temperatures are between 40s and 60s with a good amount of rain. 

[Robert Cade Ross]

On 3/19/2024 at 11:15 PM, Xenon said:

Came across this Livistona decora in SW Houston today. Seems to have been installed in 2021 to replace two big queens. Miss the freeway plantings 

It’s up to you to sneak in some small seedlings in the spots the mature ones once stood .🤫

[MarcusH]

6 hours ago, Cade said:

It’s up to you to sneak in some small seedlings in the spots the mature ones once stood .🤫

Are they on private property?  Don't want to get shot for a seed in Texas lol. 

[Robert Cade Ross]

11 hours ago, MarcusH said:

Are they on private property?  Don't want to get shot for a seed in Texas lol. 

Haha 

[Las Palmas Norte]

11 hours ago, MarcusH said:

Are they on private property?  Don't want to get shot for a seed in Texas lol. 

I thank you for your conscientious warning. Advice like this is always good to know for out of state visitors.

[Robert Cade Ross]

More glimpses of the Webster sabal planting  

[thyerr01]

I drove up to the Mercer Botanic Garden in Humble today for their annual plant sale and took a very brief detour to see some of the garden. There were some interesting additions in the tropical area that someone posted in the former Texas palms thread and I was curious to see how they had fared in our January freeze - the answer is mostly badly.

Arenga engleri, Licuala ramsayi, and Ravenea xerophila were outright dead.

Allagoptera arenaria - seemed dead.


No tag - is this Brahea moorei? Decent regrowth in the centre.


A couple of clumps of Chamaedorea microspadix - both looked great. My one large plant lives in a much warmer part of Houston is clearly a dud as it looks awful year round.


Chuniophoenix nana - looks great. I asked around about how much protection things got in the tropical area and it seemed to be some, but none of the volunteers could really provide any details.


Corypha umbraculifera - returning from the freeze. I haven't seen this one before in Texas.


Acoelorrhaphe wrightii - these should be planted much more widely in Houston.


Rhapis excelsa - clearly this was a large clump in the distant past. Coming back again.


Rhapis excelsa 'Koban' - they had a few of these too. Also making a good recovery.


Rhapis multifida - also coming back. This is definitely one I want to try and track down, but they are always so expensive.


Zombia antillarum - was not expecting this one to survive, although its clearly struggling.


This one had no tag and I'm not sure on the ID - any guesses?

Not pictured here were Brahea calcarea (large, recovering well), some very large Sabal uresana (untouched), these maybe weren't as blue as the ones at John Fairey Garden, but were no less impressive, mule palm (recovering), Serenoa repens (untouched), and Rhapidophyllum hystrix (untouched). Various Zamias ranged from untouched to dead and I didn't see any of the other large specimen cycads.

They also had an interesting selection of random tropicals, especially gingers. Some of the more interesting things; Heliconia rostrata (recovering well), Callistemon montanus (extra dead, although who knows if the ID is right), Callistemon pallidus 'Eleanor' (looked great), a couple of different Callistemon vimminalis cultivars or hybrids (returning from the roots/base), and Blechnum brasiliense (looked great, might need get some of these). 

[Chester B]

@thyerr01 anything good at the sale?  I wanted to go but really need to focus on planting what I already have so I skipped it.

[thyerr01]

@Chester B There were some of the same specialty vendors from John Fairey Garden the week before. The Native Plant Society of Texas had some interesting stuff you don't normally see, like Erythrina herbacea seedlings, and all their plants were at great prices. I thought the selection of tropical perennials, which is what I was mostly there for was pretty average and not especially cheap. They did have a range of nice Abutilons I hadn't seen before, another group of plants that I think should be used way more in Houston. There was a large, open-flowered orange one that I kinda regret not getting. There were also some tents just for flowering gingers or roses, but they aren't my thing. It wasn't clear to me what, if anything there, had been propagated in house by Mercer. Either way, I'd definitely go back next year.

[thyerr01]

In response to the stunning Sabal uresana posted by @ChrisA, here are the three at Mercer Botanic Gardens in Houston. They all seemed healthy, despite some concern of disease (or drought?) last summer, but not quite as ice blue. They had some other Sabals over near the main building that had the fattest trunks and largest crowns of any Sabal I've seen. I didn't get any photos of them, but they seemed far too large to be S. mexicana. Perhaps someone more familiar with Mercer knows the ID?
 

Edited March 24 by thyerr01

[Chester B]

If they're fatter and bigger than Mexicana, likely causiarum.  I need to get over there, but I've been beyond busy since the move.

[thyerr01]

Thanks, after looking at some images online I agree with Sabal causiarum. They were very impressive up close.

This was my first visit to Mercer so I wasn't really sure what to expect. Most plants were well labeled, although I wish they included the year planted, and they had a good mix of things. After chatting with a few of the volunteers I learned that trialing a range of unusual plants is part of their mission. I found it quite valuable to see just how many of the tropical perennials were coming back, despite the gardens being in a fairly cold area of Houston. Definitely worth a visit to get some ideas about what works here, especially since you live nearby.

[Chester B]

Hopefully I get a a bit of bump in temps since I am south of Beltway 8 and on the lake.  My limited 2.5 months experience has shown my house tracking warmer than those areas.  Either way a good spot to see what's possible.

I do have two causiarum that are growing quickly and just about planting size so I'm looking forward to getting them in the ground.  

[Robert Cade Ross]

King palm in north Houston still coming out of the damage phase slowly.

#protected 

[MarcusH]

Looks like my little Mexican fan didn't want to let me down . Pushing healthy fronds out now. Was about time .  

[Meangreen94z]

Pearland, Texas after 17-19°F last winter. Protection varied from none to heater cables and tarps.

Copernicia alba#1

Livistona nitida

Livistona nitida and Copernicia alba

Butia

Sabal uresana

Phoenix theophrastii ‘Golkoy’

Copernicia alba#2

Puya

Chamaedora radicalis 

Chamaerops humilis argentea

Chamaedora radicalis

Beaucarnea recurvata

Bismarckia nobilis#1

Bismarckia nobilis 

Hyphaene petersiana 

Medemia argun

Ravenea rivularis and Livistona decipiens

Beccarriophoenix alfredii 

Phoenix sylvestris 

Queen and phoenix sylvestris 

[Chester B]

@Meangreen94z love the updates!  Everything is looking pretty good.

[MarcusH]

2 hours ago, Meangreen94z said:

Pearland, Texas after 17-19°F last winter. Protection varied from none to heater cables and tarps.

Copernicia alba#1

Livistona nitida

Livistona nitida and Copernicia alba

Butia

Sabal uresana

Phoenix theophrastii ‘Golkoy’

Copernicia alba#2

Puya

Chamaedora radicalis 

Chamaerops humilis argentea

Chamaedora radicalis

Beaucarnea recurvata

Bismarckia nobilis#1

Bismarckia nobilis 

Hyphaene petersiana 

Medemia argun

Ravenea rivularis and Livistona decipiens

Beccarriophoenix alfredii 

Phoenix sylvestris 

Queen and phoenix sylvestris 

Looks good just some minor leaf damage

I'm surprised it got that cold in Pearland . I would have assumed it's warmer below I-10. I guess not really unless you're very close to Galveston bay but for the temperatures I think your palm trees look great . 

[thyerr01]

I drove by the large queen palm in Meyerland this morning. It is recovering well after this years freeze. It was unprotected for the Jan 24' and Dec 22' freezes (and presumably Feb 21'). Did any find out what happened to the queen palm up in Humble that survived a couple of the freezes? 

[Meangreen94z]

7 hours ago, MarcusH said:

Looks good just some minor leaf damage

I'm surprised it got that cold in Pearland . I would have assumed it's warmer below I-10. I guess not really unless you're very close to Galveston bay but for the temperatures I think your palm trees look great . 

Thanks. I looked again and 19°F was the low in that area. I planted those palms in my parents yard in a retirement community. I live west of Austin, but go in every couple months to help them with their yard.

[Chester B]

17 hours ago, thyerr01 said:

I drove by the large queen palm in Meyerland this morning. It is recovering well after this years freeze. It was unprotected for the Jan 24' and Dec 22' freezes (and presumably Feb 21'). Did any find out what happened to the queen palm up in Humble that survived a couple of the freezes? 

If someone tells me where it is I can check in on it from time to time.

[Robert Cade Ross]

17 hours ago, thyerr01 said:

I drove by the large queen palm in Meyerland this morning. It is recovering well after this years freeze. It was unprotected for the Jan 24' and Dec 22' freezes (and presumably Feb 21'). Did any find out what happened to the queen palm up in Humble that survived a couple of the freezes? 

The other large 2021-2022-2024? Survivor is not too far from this one I’ll see if my friend can get a picture of it soon . 

[thyerr01]

@Cade I think you posted a pic of the one in Humble just after the freeze this year? Is there a second surviving queen palm in Meyerland/Bellaire?