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General 2023 USDA Plant Hardiness Zone Map Discussion


JJPalmer

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Jumping off the FL-specific thread, I figured I'd start a general discussion on the release of the latest map by the USDA: https://planthardiness.ars.usda.gov/

Kicking things off, a few interesting things I've found:

  • Inclusion of a significant amount of 10a throughout SE Louisiana including a small section in DT New Orleans along with a *very* small amount of 10b
  • Northernmost extent of 10a extends into SW Oregon (Brookings)
  • Poor representation of cold sinks in microclimates throughout the Rockies: Jefferson, CO hit -24f a couple of weeks ago during a fairly typical October cold snap, but they're listed at 5a (-20f to -15f) and will routinely fall below -25f.  Peter Sinks in Utah hit -60f last year and hits -40f several times annually and is listed as 4a
  • 10b in S Texas (makes sense) despite significant freeze a couple of years ago
  • General trend of warmth nationwide (ex. introduction of zone 6 in Wisconsin for the first time, reduction of zone 4 throughout the nation)
  • Better ability to handle UHI than prior (ex. Minneapolis and Orlando)
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Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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8 hours ago, JJPalmer said:

Jumping off the FL-specific thread, I figured I'd start a general discussion on the release of the latest map by the USDA: https://planthardiness.ars.usda.gov/

Kicking things off, a few interesting things I've found:

  • Inclusion of a significant amount of 10a throughout SE Louisiana including a small section in DT New Orleans along with a *very* small amount of 10b

Yeah I saw 1 little blip of 10b way out there in the delta in Louisiana, this map might be a little on the generous side but that's wild.

Corpus Christi, TX, near salt water, zone 9b/10a! Except when it isn't and everything gets nuked.

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Thanks for creating this thread. I was surprised to see the California members be quiet on this while the Florida members were much more talkative about this update.

My zip code was updated to 10a. But I still think where I am at 2100 feet elevation is still cusp of 9b/10a. One of the nuances we have here in CA that Florida does not is the topography which can cause zone changes much faster than my old state. 
 

The North and Northwest parts of my back yard may well be 10a.(it dipped only to 31 in those areas as 6” of snow fell on my palms) I have well half an acre with most of the yard in the back. Due to being on the foothills the north side of my yard is at least 15 feet higher than the southern side. There was one night last early March were it was 33 on the north side and 27 on the southside. So I don’t risk any 10a palms(Clinostigma, Chrysalidocarpus Prestoniana) near the southern side. 
 

 

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Another thing I noticed was a bit of zone 9 creeping into El Paso near downtown. Las Cruces being pretty much 8b is interesting too after the 2011 cold event there.  In college I remember some pretty cold nights and consistent 8a temps then in the late 2000s.  Radiational always there.

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9 hours ago, JJPalmer said:

Jumping off the FL-specific thread, I figured I'd start a general discussion on the release of the latest map by the USDA: https://planthardiness.ars.usda.gov/

Kicking things off, a few interesting things I've found:

  • Inclusion of a significant amount of 10a throughout SE Louisiana including a small section in DT New Orleans along with a *very* small amount of 10b
  • Northernmost extent of 10a extends into SW Oregon (Brookings)
  • Poor representation of cold sinks in microclimates throughout the Rockies: Jefferson, CO hit -24f a couple of weeks ago during a fairly typical October cold snap, but they're listed at 5a (-20f to -15f) and will routinely fall below -25f.  Peter Sinks in Utah hit -60f last year and hits -40f several times annually and is listed as 4a
  • 10b in S Texas (makes sense) despite significant freeze a couple of years ago
  • General trend of warmth nationwide (ex. introduction of zone 6 in Wisconsin for the first time, reduction of zone 4 throughout the nation)
  • Better ability to handle UHI than prior (ex. Minneapolis and Orlando)

I’m not so sure on 10b in Texas. Even by our new standards, can 10b Texas really match anywhere that’s 10b in Florida? (Less inland Pinellas, which also shouldn’t be 10b.)

2021 wasn’t included so perhaps some of it used to be >35.0f.

Edited by RedRabbit

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A very small sliver of 8a in SE PA near Philly.  Break out the Sabal palmetto. ;) 

My maps are often regarded as generous, but this one makes me look like Ebenezer Scrooge before the 3 spirit visit.

image.png.0e1dbf7346e1493c172e2c7387e8bc5a.png

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Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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4 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

I’m not so sure on 10b in Texas. Even by our new standards, can 10b Texas really match anywhere that’s 10b in Florida? (Less inland Pinellas, which also shouldn’t be 10b.)

2021 wasn’t included so perhaps some of it used to be >35.0f.

Match Florida? No of course not. But the numbers are correct for that time period and even if you include 2021, it would still average 10B. There are too many winters with minimums >=38F pulling the average up. Several years in the 2010s did not see below 40F and the 90s/2000s were freakishly warm as a whole.

1991-2020 for Brownsville rounds to 34F while 1992-2021 rounds to 33F. The coastal 10B is usually 3-6F degrees warmer in a typical year and 0-3F warmer during the more rare advective freeze. 

Edited by Xenon
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Jonathan

Katy, TX (Zone 9a)

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9 hours ago, Xerarch said:

Yeah I saw 1 little blip of 10b way out there in the delta in Louisiana, this map might be a little on the generous side but that's wild.

It's perfectly legit to me.  Water plays a big role in that.  There's a larger area of 10b than that, but there aren't many weather stations in that unpopulated area.

Edited by RFun
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8 hours ago, flplantguy said:

Another thing I noticed was a bit of zone 9 creeping into El Paso near downtown. Las Cruces being pretty much 8b is interesting too after the 2011 cold event there.  In college I remember some pretty cold nights and consistent 8a temps then in the late 2000s.  Radiational always there.

Las Cruces can have quite the variation, but the palms there have adapted quite well.  That climate seems to have produced some very hardy varieties of palms (especially Filiferas and even some Robustas).  Out of curiosity, I wonder where the palms were sourced from when they were originally introduced to the Las Cruces area.

Edited by RFun
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This new update does more to discredit the USDA hardiness zone map system.  This map defeats its own purpose. 

Would you recommend sabal palmetto in Philly?  Or how about royals along I-95 in Volusia county?  Or coconut palms on the southern tip of the Mississippi delta?  This new map will be taken seriously by hardly no one. 

Edited by Jimbean
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Brevard County, Fl

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9 minutes ago, Jimbean said:

This new update does more to discredit the USDA hardiness zone map system.  This map defeats its own purpose. 

Would you recommend sabal palmetto in Philly?  Or how about royals along I-95 in Volusia county?  Or coconut palms on the southern tip of the Mississippi delta?  This new map will be taken seriously by hardly no one. 

Personally, I don't have any problem with someone growing Sabal Palmettos in Philly as long as they are prepared to add protection as needed.  In Philly, a Sabal Palmetto will probably top out around maybe 15-16 feet (if that) so it won't be too difficult to add protection with a taller ladder once it tops out.  Plus, it shouldn't grow too fast to begin with.

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11 minutes ago, Jimbean said:

This new update does more to discredit the USDA hardiness zone map system.  This map defeats its own purpose. 

Would you recommend sabal palmetto in Philly?  Or how about royals along I-95 in Volusia county?  Or coconut palms on the southern tip of the Mississippi delta?  This new map will be taken seriously by hardly no one. 

For me:

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Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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5 hours ago, RFun said:

Las Cruces can have quite the variation, but the palms there have adapted quite well.  That climate seems to have produced some very hardy varieties of palms (especially Filiferas and even some Robustas).  Out of curiosity, I wonder where the palms were sourced from when they were originally introduced to the Las Cruces area.

Since it takes several thousands -tens of thousands of years actually- for any living organism to evolve an adaptation, It's actually the reverse 98% of the time anyway..  .. Las Cruces' climate doesn't make something grown there for only ...say a couple hundred years.... hardier,   whatever plant that is grown there has to have already been capable of surviving whatever environmental stressors that area's climate might throw at it, before  being introduced and planted there..

Both types of palm ..Washingtonia  in this case, grow in areas where they experience quite a range of climatic stressors that they had to evolve adaptations to  to endure -over several thousands of years..

Possible too that at one time both types of palms grew over a much wider area than they do now -naturally-  ..and were only knocked back to specific areas to survive conditions associated with the last ice Age ..even if there wasn't any ice present where they survived.

A good example is how the landscape in Central and S. AZ looked during the last ice age.  ....More like N. AZ / Woodland- covered parts of New Mexico and California, rather than the subtropical desert one sees today.  All that tender " tropical " stuff  that had been present in the area -in whatever form it was at the time- before the last ice age, was pushed all the way down to -at least- central Sinaloa, before rebounding after things warmed up, post - ice age.

W. filifera  are already pretty tough ..since they hung on in ideal, local climate level places that stayed warm enough in an otherwise less - ideal area -overall-  that would have been colder during the last ice age  -compared to the northern most areas where W. robusta survived during the same time period. Still, W. robusta  generations that grew at that time, gained a little more stressor adaptability compared to the - very likely-  fairly tender, warmer-loving older generations before them ...which probably were the first if it's kind to colonize those same areas in the first place wayy back in a warmer era. 


If i had to guess ..Perhaps a DNA test should be done on specimens there to trace ancestry..  the filifera growing in Las Cruces  ..or pretty much anywhere else outside ideal areas,..  are probably of general Anza Borrego - area origin. 

W. robusta? -if pure-  probably would trace back to somewhere from the northern- most portion of their natural range. Those started from seed collected within the ..warmer.. part of their range likely would not be as adaptable enough to survive colder winters in either Las Cruces or El Paso ...or some place similar..

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5 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

For me:

Now that you mention it, the new 10a is actually a good range map for royals less non-urban inland Central Florida. I’ve always thought of them as warm 9b palms, which is pretty consistent with 10a now.

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19 hours ago, flplantguy said:

Another thing I noticed was a bit of zone 9 creeping into El Paso near downtown. Las Cruces being pretty much 8b is interesting too after the 2011 cold event there.  In college I remember some pretty cold nights and consistent 8a temps then in the late 2000s.  Radiational always there.

I'm glad the USDA updated their map, though PRISM technology is still off on some interpolation between the station gaps and what it interprets from topography, sometimes exaggerating or downplaying thermal belts and cold air sinks. There should be more collaboration with local weather service offices, if there isn't already, though some garden nerds are also solid for input, past typical biases of some hobbyists or hort people. The 2023 map is infinitely better than the crude, short-term maps prior to 1990's map.

Zone 9a in El Paso was no surprise, except it should extend further north into central El Paso, based on plants thriving vs. damaged; few temperature readings exist there to interpolate. Zone 8a for all of varied Las Cruces seemed in error, but running the NMSU's station data (high data quality to 1960) using an Excel spreadsheet proved that 8a was incorrect since the 1980's. USDA missed what looks more like 8a in the Mesilla Valley bottoms, just as they missed some 7a areas in the Albuquerque valley. But they caught the notable computer generating error that had most of the Organ and Franklin mountains as a warmer zone than in town, as one sees the effects of greater cold on native species there than the same species below 5000 ft.

As with El Paso, the 2023 USDA map underestimated the thermal belt in the ABQ heights, as based on plant response in the 2011 and 1990 uber freezes, their z 8a would probably extend north to almost Montgomery and east to Wyoming towards Gibson.

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5 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Since it takes several thousands -tens of thousands of years actually- for any living organism to evolve an adaptation, It's actually the reverse 98% of the time anyway..  .. Las Cruces' climate doesn't make something grown there for only ...say a couple hundred years.... hardier,   whatever plant that is grown there has to have already been capable of surviving whatever environmental stressors that area's climate might throw at it, before  being introduced and planted there

.........

If i had to guess ..Perhaps a DNA test should be done on specimens there to trace ancestry..  the filifera growing in Las Cruces  ..or pretty much anywhere else outside ideal areas,..  are probably of general Anza Borrego - area origin. 

W. robusta? -if pure-  probably would trace back to somewhere from the northern- most portion of their natural range. Those started from seed collected within the ..warmer.. part of their range likely would not be as adaptable enough to survive colder winters in either Las Cruces or El Paso ...or some place similar..

Glad to see some mention of my town of Las Cruces here! Good points on what seems like built-in hardiness of W. filifera.

To the Anza-Borrego canyon palms as a possible source for our W. filifera, I would also add the same species from stands near Moapa NV, the canyons W of Palm Springs, and Twentynine Palms.

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10 minutes ago, Desert DAC said:

Glad to see some mention of my town of Las Cruces here! Good points on what seems like built-in hardiness of W. filifera.

To the Anza-Borrego canyon palms as a possible source for our W. filifera, I would also add the same species from stands near Moapa NV, the canyons W of Palm Springs, and Twentynine Palms.

I would also guess as local an origin as available since they were planted so long ago. At least the ones at the library at NMSU. Those are pretty old, I think the 60s or earlier.  Most of the other subtropical stuff there is from northern Mexico, like the Mexican elders, Monterrey cypress, and most of the native stuff has the northernmost range there like ocotillo and acacia.  I think why they have such large trunks is protection from extremes of temp, since many large robust palms are from places like that where they are more exposed to either temps or sun or wind or all three.  The tiny ones are all in ideal protected places like cloud forest so all that mass must be for shielding the meristem during freak events. I had left by the 2011 freeze but to survive that is crazy.

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5 minutes ago, Desert DAC said:

Glad to see some mention of my town of Las Cruces here! Good points on what seems like built-in hardiness of W. filifera.

To the Anza-Borrego canyon palms as a possible source for our W. filifera, I would also add the same species from stands near Moapa NV, the canyons W of Palm Springs, and Twentynine Palms.

Agree, those areas could also be sources of seed for pretty hardy specimens.

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On 11/17/2023 at 9:49 AM, JJPalmer said:

Jumping off the FL-specific thread, I figured I'd start a general discussion on the release of the latest map by the USDA: https://planthardiness.ars.usda.gov/

Kicking things off, a few interesting things I've found:

  • Poor representation of cold sinks in microclimates throughout the Rockies: Jefferson, CO hit -24f a couple of weeks ago during a fairly typical October cold snap, but they're listed at 5a (-20f to -15f) and will routinely fall below -25f.  Peter Sinks in Utah hit -60f last year and hits -40f several times annually and is listed as 4a

.......

  • Better ability to handle UHI than prior (ex. Minneapolis and Orlando)

Glad you started this discussion! I wouldn't classify this year's near-Halloween cold snap as typical in Denver; probably the last time for such an event was late October 1991. Though I may be missing a couple others in the last 30 years. 1 or even 3 times in 32 years is not typical, any more than 1-3 times in 30 years there without a freeze by Nov 1. When I input a few metro Denver stations into an Excel spreadsheet, those all came up as zone 5b to 6a for the most recent 30 year period.

Where was the station in Jeffco located, that you mention hit -24F in this latest freeze? I recall many 10-15 lows all around metro Denver (high plains, east of the mountains), but I didn't check foothill canyon or mountain stations, either. I probably missed a few.

Also, I don't recall past or the current 2023 USDA cold hardiness zone maps being much about microclimates; they seem about larger, general zones at 5F cold temperature increments. Though my definition for a microclimate is a smaller exposure than many others' - sides of an individual building or slope / hills one can easily walk in or out of. The USDA does consider larger areas as microclimates in their "Section 4: Background for Map and its Use" (https://planthardiness.ars.usda.gov/pages/how-to-use-the-maps), but even then, those are half-mile area pixels. Given their technology inferring large gaps based on their assumptions of terrain, etc., and variations in day-to-day weather between properties, maps are better suited for climates (which microclimates would modify, locally). 

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23 minutes ago, flplantguy said:

I would also guess as local an origin as available since they were planted so long ago. At least the ones at the library at NMSU. Those are pretty old, I think the 60s or earlier.  Most of the other subtropical stuff there is from northern Mexico, like the Mexican elders, Monterrey cypress, and most of the native stuff has the northernmost range there like ocotillo and acacia.  I think why they have such large trunks is protection from extremes of temp, since many large robust palms are from places like that where they are more exposed to either temps or sun or wind or all three.  The tiny ones are all in ideal protected places like cloud forest so all that mass must be for shielding the meristem during freak events. I had left by the 2011 freeze but to survive that is crazy.

Those Washingtonia filifera by the NMSU library were planted in the 1980's or early 1990's - Baker Morrow's old office was the landscape architecture firm who designed that project. There are older W. filifera around Las Cruces and El Paso that are said to have recovered from even more cold / duration of <32F in 1962. Plus, the few Sabal palmetto and S. Mexicana (thriving), and OK Phoenix canariensis, P. dactylifera, and Butia capitata are in both towns. None of those seem to have ever been given protection.

Some W filifera survived unprotected in Albuquerque in Feb 2011, a borderline zone 7b-8a in much of town. I lived there 21 years and was a landscape architect during that time there, before moving south in 2013. I also did some design work in Las Vegas NV and the El Paso / Las Cruces area starting in 2003, so plenty of research and experience in the middle and high deserts.

But ABQ has almost as strong of a winter sun as Las Cruces / EP, and it has a shorter duration of <32F cold that many places on the southern plains get, though longer durations of more cold than down here. In my 2 decades there, the happiest palms were not common but used all over town and included Trachycarpus fortunei and Sabal minor. I never saw any Washingtonia filifera until 2000+, but over time more were planted and surprised me by taking it OK - not as good in winter as Las Cruces, but still OK.  

A sample of those W. filifera and other palms in ABQ. And a January or winter solar insolation (intensity) map of the US, probably from the N'tl Renewable Energy Lab in Colorado:  

usa_insolation_map-1.gif.22b87d0df52a065a71a41bab40bd044b.gif

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11 hours ago, Jimbean said:

Or how about royals along I-95 in Volusia county?

Like in 1834? sans I-95 existing yet. 🥶

Edited by Aceraceae
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Does anyone know of ficus aurea (or any other native ficus) grows in Louisiana? This new map really makes me wonder if it might be a good spot for them. On paper, it seems like they should do well if seeds can find their way there.

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4 minutes ago, RedRabbit said:

Does anyone know of ficus aurea (or any other native ficus) grows in Louisiana? This new map really makes me wonder if it might be a good spot for them. On paper, it seems like they should do well if seeds can find their way there.

It would be a neat experiment.  A few months ago, I sent a few of our misguided volunteer Ficus aurea to SC.  Hopefully they do well up that far.  The bulk of our critiques concerning the new map have been from a viewpoint of palms.  Tropical hardwoods that can come back from the roots might be a different story.

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Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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1 hour ago, RedRabbit said:

Does anyone know of ficus aurea (or any other native ficus) grows in Louisiana? This new map really makes me wonder if it might be a good spot for them. On paper, it seems like they should do well if seeds can find their way there.

https://www.inaturalist.org/observations?place_id=any&subview=map&taxon_id=120934

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Brevard County, Fl

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1 hour ago, kinzyjr said:

It would be a neat experiment.  A few months ago, I sent a few of our misguided volunteer Ficus aurea to SC.  Hopefully they do well up that far.  The bulk of our critiques concerning the new map have been from a viewpoint of palms.  Tropical hardwoods that can come back from the roots might be a different story.

I saw one guy on Twitter posted a pic of an F. aurea in LA, but nothing else. Fingers crossed on those in SC! :)

29 minutes ago, Jimbean said:

Awesome, thank you! No reports in LA, great to see where they are elsewhere though.

Edited by RedRabbit

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On 11/18/2023 at 5:52 PM, Desert DAC said:

Glad you started this discussion! I wouldn't classify this year's near-Halloween cold snap as typical in Denver; probably the last time for such an event was late October 1991. Though I may be missing a couple others in the last 30 years. 1 or even 3 times in 32 years is not typical, any more than 1-3 times in 30 years there without a freeze by Nov 1. When I input a few metro Denver stations into an Excel spreadsheet, those all came up as zone 5b to 6a for the most recent 30 year period.

Where was the station in Jeffco located, that you mention hit -24F in this latest freeze? I recall many 10-15 lows all around metro Denver (high plains, east of the mountains), but I didn't check foothill canyon or mountain stations, either. I probably missed a few.

Also, I don't recall past or the current 2023 USDA cold hardiness zone maps being much about microclimates; they seem about larger, general zones at 5F cold temperature increments. Though my definition for a microclimate is a smaller exposure than many others' - sides of an individual building or slope / hills one can easily walk in or out of. The USDA does consider larger areas as microclimates in their "Section 4: Background for Map and its Use" (https://planthardiness.ars.usda.gov/pages/how-to-use-the-maps), but even then, those are half-mile area pixels. Given their technology inferring large gaps based on their assumptions of terrain, etc., and variations in day-to-day weather between properties, maps are better suited for climates (which microclimates would modify, locally). 

I guess what I meant by 'typical' cold snap is that the entire Denver metro has dropped below 10 degrees in October in 3 of the last 5 years.  While it was cold, it's not a once-in-a-decade cold snap for October, let alone the coldest months of the year in December, January, and February.  

The stations in Jefferson, Colorado (note: not Jefferson County) that went below -20f was the CoAgMet station SE of Michigan Hill (https://www.weather.gov/wrh/timeseries?site=CSU68&hours=168) the DOT station right off 285 and PWS in the area.  Almost all locations along Michigan Creek get quite frigid on radiational freeze nights. 

The grid appears to have a resolution of roughly 0.5-1km, so theoretically you'd be able to differentiate between climates down to a ~1km grid size.  On the same night that the station above hit -24f, stations about 600' higher less than 2 miles away never dropped below zero.  The cold sinks can have low temps far different than locations within a 5 minute walk, especially when close to higher elevations (see Peter Sinks, UT).   I was just trying to make the point that, particularly in the case of cold sinks, their methodology has led to some inaccurate ratings.  If you try to grow a Japanese Maple (hardy to zone 5) in Jefferson CO or Peter Sinks, UT, you'll be quite sad when you see consecutive -30f nights.  

image.png.e0fa4a5accf62a9a43d35fbe5b41e0ee.png

 

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15 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

I saw one guy on Twitter posted a pic of an F. aurea in LA, but nothing else. Fingers crossed on those in SC! :)

Awesome, thank you! No reports in LA, great to see where they are elsewhere though.

Using @Jimbean link, I found this Ficus Elastica that's been in the ground since at least 2013: Click here

Another example planted in 2018 showing freeze damage in 2021 but regrew: Click here 

I know I've seen larger examples further SE in the state, but this is a pretty good example of something that seems to be at least root-hardy in SE Louisiana. 

Edited by JJPalmer
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1 hour ago, JJPalmer said:

Something about this vine looks suspiciously like F. aurea...

Can't tell for sure in those photos, but my first guess is Virginia creeper (Parthenocissus quinquefolia)

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Brevard County, Fl

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9 hours ago, DTS1 said:

Looks like zone 9 has officialy reached Alaska..

Break out the Date Palms. ;)

3 hours ago, Jimbean said:

Can't tell for sure in those photos, but my first guess is Virginia creeper (Parthenocissus quinquefolia)

I thought the same.  I think this is the X post that @RedRabbit referred to earlier.  The roots had the look of Virginia creeper as well.  This photo looks similar to the bunches of vines I pull out of the hedges on the north side of the property and strip off of the live oak twice a year.  If this gentleman captured the leaves, it would be easier to tell for sure.

image.png.f05a7374f001691537a71285ea324d20.png

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Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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10 minutes ago, kinzyjr said:

Break out the Date Palms. ;)

I thought the same.  I think this is the X post that @RedRabbit referred to earlier.  The roots had the look of Virginia creeper as well.  This photo looks similar to the bunches of vines I pull out of the hedges on the north side of the property and strip off of the live oak twice a year.  If this gentleman captured the leaves, it would be easier to tell for sure.

image.png.f05a7374f001691537a71285ea324d20.png

I asked that person just today where he found it and his response was Peveto Woods Bird & Butterfly Sanctuary; definitely not f. aurea at that location. 

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40 minutes ago, kinzyjr said:

Break out the Date Palms. ;)

I thought the same.  I think this is the X post that @RedRabbit referred to earlier.  The roots had the look of Virginia creeper as well.  This photo looks similar to the bunches of vines I pull out of the hedges on the north side of the property and strip off of the live oak twice a year.  If this gentleman captured the leaves, it would be easier to tell for sure.

image.png.f05a7374f001691537a71285ea324d20.png

Yep... One shot of some dangling roots doesn't tell anyone anything..  Could be Virginia Creeper  ..Or something like Cross Vine / Trumpet Creeper ...Wisteria, Native or introduced ...or maybe even Kudzu or Air Potato ( unlikely ...but not completely ) .. Or any # of other viney things that occur there..

Leaves, ..arrangement of them / other important detailed details..  Flowers ..and / or fruit = The only way to properly id plants.. 

Not one or two shots of roots hanging from a tree / clinging to a trunk.  :greenthumb:

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3 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

Break out the Date Palms. ;)

I thought the same.  I think this is the X post that @RedRabbit referred to earlier.  The roots had the look of Virginia creeper as well.  This photo looks similar to the bunches of vines I pull out of the hedges on the north side of the property and strip off of the live oak twice a year.  If this gentleman captured the leaves, it would be easier to tell for sure.

image.png.f05a7374f001691537a71285ea324d20.png

Yep, that’s what I saw. The roots do look like an F aurea, but it could be other things too. I was recently fooled by a scheffela that had very similar looking roots attached to a Sabal, but I initally couldn’t see the leaves.

Not sure what it is,  but it would make sense if strangler figs would live there especially given the success of non-native ficus.

Edited by RedRabbit
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On 11/18/2023 at 11:17 AM, Silas_Sancona said:

Since it takes several thousands -tens of thousands of years actually- for any living organism to evolve an adaptation, It's actually the reverse 98% of the time anyway..  .. Las Cruces' climate doesn't make something grown there for only ...say a couple hundred years.... hardier,   whatever plant that is grown there has to have already been capable of surviving whatever environmental stressors that area's climate might throw at it, before  being introduced and planted there..

Both types of palm ..Washingtonia  in this case, grow in areas where they experience quite a range of climatic stressors that they had to evolve adaptations to  to endure -over several thousands of years..

Possible too that at one time both types of palms grew over a much wider area than they do now -naturally-  ..and were only knocked back to specific areas to survive conditions associated with the last ice Age ..even if there wasn't any ice present where they survived.

A good example is how the landscape in Central and S. AZ looked during the last ice age.  ....More like N. AZ / Woodland- covered parts of New Mexico and California, rather than the subtropical desert one sees today.  All that tender " tropical " stuff  that had been present in the area -in whatever form it was at the time- before the last ice age, was pushed all the way down to -at least- central Sinaloa, before rebounding after things warmed up, post - ice age.

W. filifera  are already pretty tough ..since they hung on in ideal, local climate level places that stayed warm enough in an otherwise less - ideal area -overall-  that would have been colder during the last ice age  -compared to the northern most areas where W. robusta survived during the same time period. Still, W. robusta  generations that grew at that time, gained a little more stressor adaptability compared to the - very likely-  fairly tender, warmer-loving older generations before them ...which probably were the first if it's kind to colonize those same areas in the first place wayy back in a warmer era. 


If i had to guess ..Perhaps a DNA test should be done on specimens there to trace ancestry..  the filifera growing in Las Cruces  ..or pretty much anywhere else outside ideal areas,..  are probably of general Anza Borrego - area origin. 

W. robusta? -if pure-  probably would trace back to somewhere from the northern- most portion of their natural range. Those started from seed collected within the ..warmer.. part of their range likely would not be as adaptable enough to survive colder winters in either Las Cruces or El Paso ...or some place similar..

Yes, it takes many years, but I have to wonder where these palms were sourced from?  They must have spent many years in a similar climate so.....  And, I'd argue that it's the climate that is in control here as that is the climate that needs to be able to be adapted to in order for the plants to survive.  Also, I'm not sure how far along we are in each species' adaptation cycle.  Some plants are further along than others.

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^

This shows more than a 50% half zone coverage jump this time. 

In the 2012 update, made with circa 1975-05 data, there was a similar map showing the change from the 1990 map, made with late midcentury data (particularly cold era for places such as Raleigh NC). It also showed a partial half zone jump. 

Combined, they show basically a full half zone jump since 1990, not a full zone jump since 1990. This translates to 5 or 6 degrees F (3 C) milder expected average winter mins. 

*Nearly every location east of Colorado has moved up a half zone since the 1990 map, but *Very few locations moved up a half zone in both maps (full zone warmer)

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15 hours ago, JJPalmer said:

Figured you all would like this graphic I saw on Twitter: 

IMG_6894.png

As I've said before, they could have saved a lot of hassle by just using longer time frames like 50 or 75 years.  Otherwise, it's just a lot of useless talk whenever they decide to release the next map that covers only 30 years.

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I grabbed a few screenshots the other night of coastal SC, the Outer Banks of NC, and Cape Charles, VA.

IMG_2372.thumb.png.3a0e3fe18c259e0ab21174930f1eb51f.png

IMG_2374.png

IMG_2375.thumb.png.f9e6297cf436e9bce011f54001c9327f.png

 

1. USDA says coastal SC is 9b, and warmer than the Golden Isles of GA. The Wunderground stations actually seem to support this.

2. Wow, what a microclimate the OB has compared to the western shore of the Pamlico Sound.

3. Cape Charles sort of held in there. It’s colder than the other two locations, but not terrible. And this is Virginia we are talking about…

It will be interesting to see how these hold up once the ocean cools further during the winter.

Edited by RedRabbit
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