California Coconut!🥥🌴

[cocoloco]

Currently November 15 2023, and the winter rain has decided to shower down on Zone 10A/B Tustin, California in Orange County. Using soil heating cables in the pot of my Coconut palm (Panama Pacific Tall variety)

 

 

 

, todays addition of christmas lights for extra warmth has made its way into my garden. Here’s a silly video showing my coconut getting ready for this upcoming winter! (there’s an umbrella over the coconut so it’s not overwatered) 😛

[cocoloco]

Just seen the new 2023 USDA zone map and it seems most of orange county is now zone 10B rather than a split between 10A and 10B so this gives me a tiny bit more hope!

[SouthernCATropicals]

How’s it doing now in December? One concern I’m having with my one coconut planted in the ground is the lack of sunlight because I planted in north facing. I use a mirror to reflect sunlight. I’m in San Diego 

[Las Palmas Norte]

5 hours ago, SouthernCATropicals said:

... the lack of sunlight because I planted in north facing.

Did you just run out of available space to plant it elsewhere?

[Palmy Pal]

Keep us updated on it. Looks like you have quite the protection plan for it 😀

[mnorell]

17 hours ago, SouthernCATropicals said:

...because I planted in north facing. I use a mirror to reflect sunlight. I’m in San Diego 

North-facing is probably going to be a non-starter in SoCal. South-facing under light canopy (but open to the south) will likely give you the best results--the sun directly heating the root-zone all day long should make a big difference...so a mirror isn't likely to help much. One of the main "Cocos killers" (probably the main killer) is cold, heavy, wet soil; and the fleshy, fibrous roots will probably just rot away in a north-facing spot...and they will likely not grow or absorb nutrients properly in the long, long (approximately six-month) "coconut winter" from December through May/June experienced in coastal areas. Positioning it south-facing against a wall, hopefully surrounded by as much masonry/paving as possible, in coarse sand or sand/rock mix for maximum drainage and oxygen penetration; and also mounding the soil somewhat, topped with black lava rock or similar heat-conserving materials, should go a long way toward getting it to survive, at least for a few years. You should pay attention to Alex's ("GotmittAlex") efforts in the Tijuana area, which he has documented in a number of threads here, he uses temperature-activated brood-lamps to warm the root-zones during the cold-season. He may be the most long-term-successful person keeping multiple coconuts alive in the semi-coastal zone, and his appear to be maturing nicely. With this species you really need to put your best foot forward and work on all these seemingly minor details, or you may just have a very tropical-looking annual. (And of course there's nothing wrong with that, either.)

[SouthernCATropicals]

22 hours ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

Did you just run out of available space to plant it elsewhere?

I just really wanted it in this corner space because it would look so good there when it grows up imo. I wasn’t as informed as I am now, but im determined to make it work. I have two other cocos still in pots awaiting spring and they will be south facing for sure. It’s still growing and looking happy now deep in dec so I’m feeling confident!

[SouthernCATropicals]

9 hours ago, mnorell said:

North-facing is probably going to be a non-starter in SoCal. South-facing under light canopy (but open to the south) will likely give you the best results--the sun directly heating the root-zone all day long should make a big difference...so a mirror isn't likely to help much. One of the main "Cocos killers" (probably the main killer) is cold, heavy, wet soil; and the fleshy, fibrous roots will probably just rot away in a north-facing spot...and they will likely not grow or absorb nutrients properly in the long, long (approximately six-month) "coconut winter" from December through May/June experienced in coastal areas. Positioning it south-facing against a wall, hopefully surrounded by as much masonry/paving as possible, in coarse sand or sand/rock mix for maximum drainage and oxygen penetration; and also mounding the soil somewhat, topped with black lava rock or similar heat-conserving materials, should go a long way toward getting it to survive, at least for a few years. You should pay attention to Alex's ("GotmittAlex") efforts in the Tijuana area, which he has documented in a number of threads here, he uses temperature-activated brood-lamps to warm the root-zones during the cold-season. He may be the most long-term-successful person keeping multiple coconuts alive in the semi-coastal zone, and his appear to be maturing nicely. With this species you really need to put your best foot forward and work on all these seemingly minor details, or you may just have a very tropical-looking annual. (And of course there's nothing wrong with that, either.)

I have religiously studied Alex’s cocos haha. He’s what got me so interested. In the pictures you can see the timeline of my coconut and its slow growth from august to mid December. I work from home and adjust the big 7 dollar mirrors all day to give the soil all the suns heat and the soil is covered in a thick mulch. The ground feels very warm every sunny day which is almost everyday here. My particular location I think is the ideal spot as almost every sunny day is above 70 degrees so I can really heat up the soil all day with my mirrors but I’m close enough to the ocean that my coldest night has been 48 one time so far. When you walk around mid city you can feel dramatic temp differences and I can’t explain all of them but there are so many factors here in coastal socal. I think I’m in some sort of heat trap that you can really feel on sunny days. The coconut is noticeably growing still now so I’m very hopeful. One thing is in the last month since 2 times it has dipped in the 40’s the tiny brown spots look darker or maybe I’m imagining it. Thank you for all the advice I’ll be mindful when the next cold rainstorm comes in maybe give it some coverage. 

[PalmatierMeg]

20 hours ago, mnorell said:

North-facing is probably going to be a non-starter in SoCal. South-facing under light canopy (but open to the south) will likely give you the best results--the sun directly heating the root-zone all day long should make a big difference...so a mirror isn't likely to help much. One of the main "Cocos killers" (probably the main killer) is cold, heavy, wet soil; and the fleshy, fibrous roots will probably just rot away in a north-facing spot...and they will likely not grow or absorb nutrients properly in the long, long (approximately six-month) "coconut winter" from December through May/June experienced in coastal areas. Positioning it south-facing against a wall, hopefully surrounded by as much masonry/paving as possible, in coarse sand or sand/rock mix for maximum drainage and oxygen penetration; and also mounding the soil somewhat, topped with black lava rock or similar heat-conserving materials, should go a long way toward getting it to survive, at least for a few years. You should pay attention to Alex's ("GotmittAlex") efforts in the Tijuana area, which he has documented in a number of threads here, he uses temperature-activated brood-lamps to warm the root-zones during the cold-season. He may be the most long-term-successful person keeping multiple coconuts alive in the semi-coastal zone, and his appear to be maturing nicely. With this species you really need to put your best foot forward and work on all these seemingly minor details, or you may just have a very tropical-looking annual. (And of course there's nothing wrong with that, either.)

Totally agree with @mnorell. I've been saying for years yet almost no one on PT seems to get it after all these years: coconuts and other tropical palms, i.e., Adonidia are not only "cold sensitive" to very low temps, they are also "cool sensitive" (as in "COOL sensitive"). That means that long periods of chilly weather, temps under 60F, will kill them as surely as a cold blast under 32F. Cold Cali winter rain is lethal as is wet, cold soil - you cannot reliably heat all the cold soil in your yard. Finally, coconuts and other tropical palms cannot photosynthesize at temps below 50F - even in full sun. Nor can they make use of fertilizer spread on cold, damp soil.  So, if cold/chill don't kill them outright they will starve to death in those ambient conditions. Zone 10a/b in Cali does not translate to zone 10a/b in FL's summer swelter and dry winters. Coconuts demand high heat (85+F), high humidity (70% minimum, 90-100% ideal) and blazing sun. Planting a coconut on the shady north side of your house as a yard design feature is probably a death sentence - your winter has months to consign it to the compost pile. People blather on and on about coconut palms without knowing a thing about them nor are they willing to do due diligence. You should do your own research rather than accept babble as truth. And take notes, esp. if your dictionary has a blank space where the word "cool" should be.

[Aceraceae]

7 hours ago, PalmatierMeg said:

Totally agree with @mnorell. I've been saying for years yet almost no one on PT seems to get it after all these years: coconuts and other tropical palms, i.e., Adonidia are not only "cold sensitive" to very low temps, they are also "cool sensitive" (as in "COOL sensitive"). That means that long periods of chilly weather, temps under 60F, will kill them as surely as a cold blast under 32F. Cold Cali winter rain is lethal as is wet, cold soil - you cannot reliably heat all the cold soil in your yard. Finally, coconuts and other tropical palms cannot photosynthesize at temps below 50F - even in full sun. Nor can they make use of fertilizer spread on cold, damp soil.  So, if cold/chill don't kill them outright they will starve to death in those ambient conditions. Zone 10a/b in Cali does not translate to zone 10a/b in FL's summer swelter and dry winters. 

Yes, other than annual overall temps being close, Tropical and Mediterranean climates are opposites, despite being A and B on the Koppen scale. Mediterranean, inlcuding all of the urban SoCal Bsa, usually means way too much dry heat in the summer, then cold rain in the winter that's just as cold as many C zone Subtropical climates.

Precipitation and sometimes even insolation wise, tropical is the opposite of mediterranean.

There are former 9b zones in Florida where a coconut could flourish much better than one in a cold zone 12 equatorial highland, like Quito Ecuador, where it rarely goes below 50 (zone 12 mean minimum) but is 60 all the time. For the elevation based climates near the equator but on islands isolated from continents, where there is a year round mono temperature that just decreases with height, it isn't guaranteed to be warm until at least zone 13 (60 plus), but these are ultratropical islands where the coasts are zone 14, with even all time record lows being above 70. 

[SouthernCATropicals]

9 hours ago, PalmatierMeg said:

Totally agree with @mnorell. I've been saying for years yet almost no one on PT seems to get it after all these years: coconuts and other tropical palms, i.e., Adonidia are not only "cold sensitive" to very low temps, they are also "cool sensitive" (as in "COOL sensitive"). That means that long periods of chilly weather, temps under 60F, will kill them as surely as a cold blast under 32F. Cold Cali winter rain is lethal as is wet, cold soil - you cannot reliably heat all the cold soil in your yard. Finally, coconuts and other tropical palms cannot photosynthesize at temps below 50F - even in full sun. Nor can they make use of fertilizer spread on cold, damp soil.  So, if cold/chill don't kill them outright they will starve to death in those ambient conditions. Zone 10a/b in Cali does not translate to zone 10a/b in FL's summer swelter and dry winters. Coconuts demand high heat (85+F), high humidity (70% minimum, 90-100% ideal) and blazing sun. Planting a coconut on the shady north side of your house as a yard design feature is probably a death sentence - your winter has months to consign it to the compost pile. People blather on and on about coconut palms without knowing a thing about them nor are they willing to do due diligence. You should do your own research rather than accept babble as truth. And take notes, esp. if your dictionary has a blank space where the word "cool" should be.

I don’t doubt that coconut palms prefer more heat and would grow faster in warmer climate, but with the very large Del Mar and Newport coconuts in the coldest region of socal (right on the coast) I really am confident that in my much warmer mid city climate they will be fine. Where this coconut is, it gets plenty of warmth through the fence cracks and with my mirror the ground feels warm to the touch. Im not sure what you mean with they can’t photosynthesize below 50? I’m not aware of even a single day below 60s when sunny so that is not a concern in SoCal let alone the warmest parts. I think a huge portion of the reason some tropicals are so uncommon here is because of preferences and accessibility more than our winters that really are very mild and regulated by the oceans and mountains 

[Silas_Sancona]

4 minutes ago, SouthernCATropicals said:

I don’t doubt that coconut palms prefer more heat and would grow faster in warmer climate, but with the very large Del Mar and Newport coconuts in the coldest region of socal (right on the coast) I really am confident that in my much warmer mid city climate they will be fine. Where this coconut is, it gets plenty of warmth through the fence cracks and with my mirror the ground feels warm to the touch. Im not sure what you mean with they can’t photosynthesize below 50? I’m not aware of even a single day below 60s when sunny so that is not a concern in SoCal let alone the warmest parts. I think a huge portion of the reason some tropicals are so uncommon here is because of preferences and accessibility more than our winters that really are very mild and regulated by the oceans and mountains 

Agree with that 100%

I myself might not be too into growing them, but,  Don't.  be.  discouraged.  There are numerous folks around who seem to assume S. Cal ..San Diego esp is some chilly / harmful to anything tropical plants kind of place when those who know, understand ..while it isn't Hawaii, ...or Puerta Vallarta, ..it's a pretty good area ..on the best coast... for attempting fairly bold tropical things.

I'd have never thought one could grow Stanhopea ..a really wild looking group of Orchids outdoors  out there until crossing paths with a blog written by someone out there growing several -outdoors-  ..A few years back, a formally active member in the Oceanside area posted info regarding a fruiting Jackfruit ..in S. Cal. Can't count how many people would say " you can't grow that there " in the past. This thread tossed that mindset on it's...   ..Choose your own descriptive word here, lol;
 

  If that can be done, so can a Coconut.


Sure you might face more challenges / have to lean harder on micro climate advantages attempting to grow one there, but, as others have shown in various threads, Coconuts can be grown out there / other parts of S.Cal ...and if the future only leans towards " getting milder / warmer ",   that only increases the odds that you ..or anyone else out there itching to try one from this point forward... may have better odds of longer term success  ..as long as you don't give up if you experience a setback ( ..A few are killed before one takes ..and takes off ) ..or take what the overly critical critics say seriously..

As for the it's too dry in summer aspect, while yeah, compared to say Miami ...or even Mazatlan,  it is dry in S. cal, in Summer.   That said,  last few summers have shown it can rain, a bit more than many assume it can out there at that time of year ..Can get pretty humid at times out there during the summer too.  Such " summer "  weather may not be a " once in a blue moon " fluke that only occurs say once every 10 or 25 or so years in the future ..which would only add to the potential for success w/ Coconuts..  They grow in Baja  ..up to about San Felipe in the N.W. Gulf ..Purtty darn dry there.  Much hotter / drier on that side of Baja Norte too.

Winter cold?  what cold, lol..  Have family friends out there ( in Vista ) and even they laugh when friends of theirs assume it is chilly all winter there. Yea, there can be a few chillier days but ..not really that cold.   As it looks right now, winters appear to be trending milder, esp. closer to the coast over time.  ..So,

Like i said, ..Coconuts may not be my thing,  but, ..Go for it.  No reason not to.   

[Aceraceae]

The forecast is San Diego right now looks fairly mild, some low 70s at best and nights in the upper 40s, but the humidity right now and in many days of the forecast is dreadfully low. 30% ish with the dew point right now below 20 F with wind. Cool and dry. 

There are some deserts and tropical deserts that grow coconuts, such as the middle east in many cities and around oasis and water, and Karachi Pakistan, where it's humid but there's no rain. Same goes for northern Mexico places like Baja or around the Sea of Cortez where there's at least medium humidity but still no rain at all in spots. So they can handle either no rain and or very low humidity if they are well watered. 

Even the zone 11 spots in SoCal have all or some combo of the problem of cold rain or cool and dry air, no summer rain, so they would require good microclimate + bonus care like warm water, awning overhead, and heating cables basically bordering on boxing and full protection. Or not like the Newport miracle. 

^^3 posts up: Mediterranean is a C not B climate, with Csa bordering on B, moreso the opposite of tropical in that regard. 

Edited December 10, 2023 by Aceraceae

[Than]

On 12/8/2023 at 3:53 AM, SouthernCATropicals said:

How’s it doing now in December? One concern I’m having with my one coconut planted in the ground is the lack of sunlight because I planted in north facing. I use a mirror to reflect sunlight. I’m in San Diego 

Any photos of your mirror setting? I tried that too but unless the mirrors are huge, or you have some mechanism that moves them, because of the sun's movement the sunlight is only reflected towards you want for a few minutes..

[PalmatierMeg]

Absolutely proceed with your plan - we never know what we will find unless we (or someone else tries) and posts the results on PT. Just be aware of potential problems you face. Tropical palms cannot photosynthesize below 50F is self explanatory. Coconuts demand hot summer temps with ample warm rain. We had drought here in Fl most of the year and my coconuts moped and looked ratty from lack of rain. Also, not a good idea to count on raising groves of coconut palms from offspring of a palm that manages to survive. To my knowledge no coconut palm in CA has ever produced viable seeds (which takes 2 years). In HI coconuts do not produce viable seeds above 1,000’ elevation. In no way are coconuts “cold hardy” but are one of the most cold sensitive palms in the world so this topic belongs in the Discussing Palms sub forum.

My impossible dream palm is Lepidorrhachis mooreana (also Dictyocaryum lamarckium and Geonoma undata). But all of those species are just that - i-m-p-o-s-s-i-b-l-e grows in FL and most of the country. Their Achilles’ heel is heat. I once mused that if I were a multi-billionaire I would build on air conditioned conservatory set at 50-70F to grow these persnickity cool-loving palms. Then I woke up. Never going to happen.

[SouthernCATropicals]

10 hours ago, Aceraceae said:

The forecast is San Diego right now looks fairly mild, some low 70s at best and nights in the upper 40s, but the humidity right now and in many days of the forecast is dreadfully low. 30% ish with the dew point right now below 20 F with wind. Cool and dry. 

There are some deserts and tropical deserts that grow coconuts, such as the middle east in many cities and around oasis and water, and Karachi Pakistan, where it's humid but there's no rain. Same goes for northern Mexico places like Baja or around the Sea of Cortez where there's at least medium humidity but still no rain at all in spots. So they can handle either no rain and or very low humidity if they are well watered. 

Even the zone 11 spots in SoCal have all or some combo of the problem of cold rain or cool and dry air, no summer rain, so they would require good microclimate + bonus care like warm water, awning overhead, and heating cables basically bordering on boxing and full protection. Or not like the Newport miracle. 

^^3 posts up: Mediterranean is a C not B climate, with Csa bordering on B, moreso the opposite of tropical in that regard. 

Are you referring to if they could grow in the wild? I water it everyday midday so the heat dries it. We have to supplement our plants here with water because rain is very uncommon even in our wet season. Maybe they could grow by the SD river without needing supplemental water.  I’ll watch out for cold rain, thank you. This is my neighborhoods forecast and Del Mar where that very big coconut palm is, it usually is mostly accurate during winter. This is fairly typical, pretty warm during the day and chilly in the mornings.

[SouthernCATropicals]

10 hours ago, ego said:

Any photos of your mirror setting? I tried that too but unless the mirrors are huge, or you have some mechanism that moves them, because of the sun's movement the sunlight is only reflected towards you want for a few minutes..

I unfortunately have no answer for that. Like you said I adjust them every 20 mins or so because I work from home and just really enjoy it haha. I use long tall ones that really can aim at the base. Maybe another month and a half of this bc in October there was natural sun hitting it. I can’t imagine an adult tree will require this it’s just my coco is so young I want it to really establish first. Also adjusting the soil to be angled higher behind the plant so that the mirrors can really heat it up probably helps. I have several of these mirrors they were very very cheap so I’m not afraid of them being stolen lol. I do wonder however if the rocks are helping or hurting as it seems they hold temps whether cold or hot. Maybe best for summer times rather than winter. 

[Than]

1 hour ago, SouthernCATropicals said:

I unfortunately have no answer for that. Like you said I adjust them every 20 mins or so because I work from home and just really enjoy it haha. I use long tall ones that really can aim at the base. Maybe another month and a half of this bc in October there was natural sun hitting it. I can’t imagine an adult tree will require this it’s just my coco is so young I want it to really establish first. Also adjusting the soil to be angled higher behind the plant so that the mirrors can really heat it up probably helps. I have several of these mirrors they were very very cheap so I’m not afraid of them being stolen lol. I do wonder however if the rocks are helping or hurting as it seems they hold temps whether cold or hot. Maybe best for summer times rather than winter. 

Wow, you ARE dedicated haha. I tried mirrors but when I realized I'd have to change their positions every few minutes, I gave up. I also work from home but I don't wanna do that. Unless we place a range of mirrors, next to each other in a semi-circular shape somehow.. 

I don't think stones radiate cold. People place stones near sensitive plants in the winter to keep them warm, provided they receive sunrays directly. Someone more experienced than me may confirm this perhaps.

Edited December 10, 2023 by ego

[Silas_Sancona]

On 12/10/2023 at 11:04 AM, SouthernCATropicals said:

I unfortunately have no answer for that. Like you said I adjust them every 20 mins or so because I work from home and just really enjoy it haha. I use long tall ones that really can aim at the base. Maybe another month and a half of this bc in October there was natural sun hitting it. I can’t imagine an adult tree will require this it’s just my coco is so young I want it to really establish first. Also adjusting the soil to be angled higher behind the plant so that the mirrors can really heat it up probably helps. I have several of these mirrors they were very very cheap so I’m not afraid of them being stolen lol. I do wonder however if the rocks are helping or hurting as it seems they hold temps whether cold or hot. Maybe best for summer times rather than winter. 

Not sure a mirror will help.. Yes, they do reflect light,  but don't reflect much heat..  Glass of the mirror absorbs / takes away some of the heat as well.

Rocks will definitely help, though i'd have the whole bed laid in stone since the benefits will be greater. A few rocks around it like in the picture, = not too much benefit from them. 

If you look at pictures of Coconut specimens in the Baja / Mexico thread, ..no mulch around 'em, most anyway, lol.. No amended, " good " soil planted in .. just plopped into whatever sandy / rocky " native soil is present..

Me myself ..if i ever twist my arm enough to try a couple,  lol  i'd create a bed specifically for them, ..say 4' X 4',  maybe bigger ... possibly removing the native soil in that bed, ( . if the clay content were high.  Probably not necessary if my native dirt were a deep layer of sand / rock )  to roughly 2ft deep, and back filling with a mixture of decomp. granite fines / 1/4" sized granite ( or Lava  ) ..and maybe a few bags of Turface MVP mixed in..  Plop them in,  and top the bed with something like black colored Lava ..or some other, darker colored rock / gravel ( at least 3" deep ) ..if Black lava were too much of a contrast for my eye.. 

Taking any potential adverse weather aspect(s) out of the picture, I suspect ( ..but would have to prove obviously ) that growing them in well drained, rocky / sandy dirt is a big key in long term success w/ them, esp in very marginal areas, like this part of the world..  Similar to Plumeria, which also prefer their soil to be rocky / sandy.

[cocoloco]

Hello! thanks for all the great input, just a quick update on my coconut palm in Tustin, CA (it’s closer to Santa Ana than Irvine and has the a justifiable amount of the Urban Heat Effect to raise temps). Although we’re facing winter time, Orange County seems to have enough sunshine to where my palm is pushing out a new frond  I do however have a coconut palm I planted in the ground in Woodbridge, Irvine since the beginning of summer 2023, and it is still doing great even with zero winter protection somehow, I gotta go take some pics next time I go back.

[SouthernCATropicals]

On 12/12/2023 at 9:28 PM, cocoloco said:

Hello! thanks for all the great input, just a quick update on my coconut palm in Tustin, CA (it’s closer to Santa Ana than Irvine and has the a justifiable amount of the Urban Heat Effect to raise temps). Although we’re facing winter time, Orange County seems to have enough sunshine to where my palm is pushing out a new frond  I do however have a coconut palm I planted in the ground in Woodbridge, Irvine since the beginning of summer 2023, and it is still doing great even with zero winter protection somehow, I gotta go take some pics next time I go back.

It looks so tall, how old it is? The leaves look very good too

[cocoloco]

19 hours ago, SouthernCATropicals said:

It looks so tall, how old it is? The leaves look very good too

I got this Panama pacific tall from https://letsgrowflorida.com and I believe it was maybe a year old when it arrived july 2023, the website just had a seed option, germinated option, and seeding option (the one I chose) and although it’s faced a minor yellowing here and there, shes in good shape for a coconut living somewhere it shouldn’t 😅 I reside very close to the Santa Ana coconut so it shouldn’t be difficult raising a coconut where I am

[cocoloco]

Starting in February 2024, after most of the cold rain has slowed down, I will be planting a handful of coconut sprouts into the ground of my partners south facing lawn, just less a few blocks from the Santa Ana coconut, as my partner lives extremely close to where it is planted. I’ve considered the varieties i’d like to try, them being Maypan, Mexican tall (if I can even find one), and panama pacific tall (Please give any recommendations as to where I can find these palm seedlings at a price that isn’t obscene). Once I plant them into the ground I will be posting updates on the palms. Any ideas as to how I can benefit my palms here in Santa Ana?

[SouthernCATropicals]

11 hours ago, cocoloco said:

Starting in February 2024, after most of the cold rain has slowed down, I will be planting

I was thinking the same thing after this weekends rain it is looking to be pretty warm going forward heading into spring. I’m going to plant 3 more.
 

I have two potted maypans from Miami one is growing so fast and the other is a total dud growing but looks funny. I got them from vendor “plantshop.com” on Amazon for $39 each. 

[cocoloco]

4 hours ago, SouthernCATropicals said:

I was thinking the same thing after this weekends rain it is looking to be pretty warm going forward heading into spring. I’m going to plant 3 more.
 

I have two potted maypans from Miami one is growing so fast and the other is a total dud growing but looks funny. I got them from vendor “plantshop.com” on Amazon for $39 each. 

No time better than when it’s starting warming up to our BLAZING california sun! thank you so so much for this information as to where you for them because i cannot find any reasonable palms for less than 70$. Thank!!!!  - for funzies, here is a picture of some washies here in at the district in Tustin with super long branches!!

[SouthernCATropicals]

Down here in SD everything flooded. My front yard coconut was entirely submerged under the water from the river that formed on my street..Also I just received today another coconut from that vendor I mentioned above and it showed up fully black/dead so something to keep in mind lol

[cocoloco]

17 hours ago, SouthernCATropicals said:

Down here in SD everything flooded. My front yard coconut was entirely submerged under the water from the river that formed on my street..Also I just received today another coconut from that vendor I mentioned above and it showed up fully black/dead so something to keep in mind lol

How unfortunate, I hope your coconut was moved to a spot to prevent it from root rot. Rain was pretty mild in Tustin, however my dumb mistake was putting my coconuts pot in a location that happened to dribble the most water from the roof prior to my knowledge to come outside and find the pot over flooded. i immediately took action and drained it, and extensively dug out the soggy cold soil. it only had one small rotten root and they had grow so much since i planted it. I made a quick trip to lowe’s right after to get some sand and an tall pot. I placed it in a spot under the roof to protect it from getting any rainwater

[SouthernCATropicals]

3 hours ago, cocoloco said:

How unfortunate, I hope your coconut was moved to a spot to prevent it from root rot.  

 

It’s in the ground so it can’t be moved but it’s entirely in store bought soil so it drained so well you can barely tell it was submerged to the very top of the plant under water for a little while. This picture was yesterday after becoming an aquatic plant. It’s had a tough year, a drunk driver crashing into the fence and now submerged in a river. It’ll be a tough coconut now I expect great things 😁

I kept my potted cocos far from the rain too. 
 

You mentioned you have an in ground coconut somewhere?

[cocoloco]

On 1/23/2024 at 5:57 PM, SouthernCATropicals said:

It’s in the ground so it can’t be moved but it’s entirely in store bought soil so it drained so well you can barely tell it was submerged to the very top of the plant under water for a little while.

You mentioned you have an in ground coconut somewhere?

Good to know, and it seems your palm might be the next Newport with all it’s gone through 🤣 really rooting for that plant!! as for the in ground cocos that I have i’ve decided to relocate it, it’s originally planted in Irvine, but i’ve noticed the area it’s in, like much of Irvine, is covered in tall pine and oak trees so the palm isn’t getting its full potential of sun. Once I receive my three cocos sprouts this week I will likely post an update. They will be planted in Santa Ana and Tustin. Also today is very warm here in Tustin to where the soil is nearly at 100° F!! happy palms today!

Edited January 27, 2024 by cocoloco

[agroventuresperu]

I would think it's a question of winning the genetic lottery. I recall reading that there are some high-altitude fruiting coconuts located by a lake in central Mexico. Sorry I can't remember the name of the lake right now. If you could get thousands of coconuts from somewhere like that, then eventually one would probably work out. I still wouldn't expect it to fruit well though. Keep in mind those of you that are located inland may need to provide supplemental chlorides for your plants. That could be part of the reason the coastal ones in SoCal were the only ones to reach full size.

[mnorell]

3 hours ago, agroventuresperu said:

I would think it's a question of winning the genetic lottery. I recall reading that there are some high-altitude fruiting coconuts located by a lake in central Mexico. Sorry I can't remember the name of the lake right now. If you could get thousands of coconuts from somewhere like that, then eventually one would probably work out. I still wouldn't expect it to fruit well though. Keep in mind those of you that are located inland may need to provide supplemental chlorides for your plants. That could be part of the reason the coastal ones in SoCal were the only ones to reach full size.

I believe you're thinking of the coconuts that have been found on the shores of Lake Chapala (near Guadalajara) in the state of Jalisco, Mexico.

There are more cool-tolerant varieties of coconut around the world (see forms found in southern China; in India; in Hawai'i; possibly in both Central Florida and cooler areas of Mexico), and this issue (specifically the Southern China plants) has been documented in at least one formal study. I have three forms in the ground this year in the Sonoran Desert (not far from the now-destroyed Palm Desert coconut): two Jamaican Tall; one Dwarf Spicata; and two 'Puerto Rican King'; and the Jamaicans and Spicata are in quite good shape at present; while both of the 'Puerto Rican Kings' browned out and basically collapsed in the cold a month ago, they are barely alive if at all.

And just to set the record straight, the only publicized coconuts in California known to "reach full size" have been documented inland, in the Coachella Valley (low desert): in Palm Desert (which was fruiting just before it was intentionally destroyed), and in La Quinta (the one still alive). The well-known, more coastal palms (Del Mar, Santa Ana, Compton) were or are more diminutive in stature. This is no doubt because of the extra-cool climate (particularly the chilly Spring) experienced in the coastal plain. The tallest recorded coastal coconut, in Newport Beach, struggled along for about 30 years and did achieve a moderately short trunk before it finally gave up, and had achieved growth probably about equal to (more or less, depending on variety) five years' growth in South Florida. The Corona coconut, which was located far inland where it got a good dose of daytime heat (but still subject to cool nights in Spring), was able to get a decent-sized trunk and good appearance, until it was unfortunately destroyed (as with the Palm Desert specimen) by the new owners of the house. The best coastal coconuts (all located some miles inland from the fog-belt) at present appear to be in Santa Ana; and near eastern Tijuana, Mexico (in Alex's garden).

And it has been pretty well established that coconuts do not require sodium chloride, although they don't mind it and at least, according to the Agricultural Department of the Philippines, sodium chloride can be utilized as a type of fertilizer by Cocos nucifera.

[SouthernCATropicals]

19 hours ago, mnorell said:

I believe you're thinking of the coconuts that have been found on the shores of Lake Chapala (near Guadalajara) in the state of Jalisco, Mexico.

Very interesting. I’d love to have a sprout from any of these unique locations but it seems really impractical sadly 

[agroventuresperu]

20 hours ago, mnorell said:

I believe you're thinking of the coconuts that have been found on the shores of Lake Chapala (near Guadalajara) in the state of Jalisco, Mexico.

There are more cool-tolerant varieties of coconut around the world (see forms found in southern China; in India; in Hawai'i; possibly in both Central Florida and cooler areas of Mexico), and this issue (specifically the Southern China plants) has been documented in at least one formal study. I have three forms in the ground this year in the Sonoran Desert (not far from the now-destroyed Palm Desert coconut): two Jamaican Tall; one Dwarf Spicata; and two 'Puerto Rican King'; and the Jamaicans and Spicata are in quite good shape at present; while both of the 'Puerto Rican Kings' browned out and basically collapsed in the cold a month ago, they are barely alive if at all.

And just to set the record straight, the only publicized coconuts in California known to "reach full size" have been documented inland, in the Coachella Valley (low desert): in Palm Desert (which was fruiting just before it was intentionally destroyed), and in La Quinta (the one still alive). The well-known, more coastal palms (Del Mar, Santa Ana, Compton) were or are more diminutive in stature. This is no doubt because of the extra-cool climate (particularly the chilly Spring) experienced in the coastal plain. The tallest recorded coastal coconut, in Newport Beach, struggled along for about 30 years and did achieve a moderately short trunk before it finally gave up, and had achieved growth probably about equal to (more or less, depending on variety) five years' growth in South Florida. The Corona coconut, which was located far inland where it got a good dose of daytime heat (but still subject to cool nights in Spring), was able to get a decent-sized trunk and good appearance, until it was unfortunately destroyed (as with the Palm Desert specimen) by the new owners of the house. The best coastal coconuts (all located some miles inland from the fog-belt) at present appear to be in Santa Ana; and near eastern Tijuana, Mexico (in Alex's garden).

And it has been pretty well established that coconuts do not require sodium chloride, although they don't mind it and at least, according to the Agricultural Department of the Philippines, sodium chloride can be utilized as a type of fertilizer by Cocos nucifera.

Yes, that's the one. Lake Chapala. 

Where do you think would be the best location to select cool-tolerant coconuts from? I would like to read the formal study you refer to about South China.

Thanks for setting the record straight about the California coconuts. I had no idea there were that many large specimens. Do they do OK in the those really hot/dry desert areas? By the way, why was the one in Palm Desert intentionally destroyed? I just looked up images of the one in La Quinta. That is very impressive.

I don't think that there would be Chlorine deficiencies in an arid environment like Coachella Valley. I'd assume the irrigation water alone would provide more than enough. Sodium is essential for some plants, but maybe Cocos nucifera is not one of them? I could even see in an arid environment that you might end up with the opposite problem: excess sodium.  At least tropical beaches receive plentiful rainfall that washes out a lot of the sodium buildup around coconut rhizospheres. Coconuts do have higher requirements for Chlorine than most plants. Now that I think about it, I don't think either would be deficient somewhere like California. Probably more of a relevant consideration in areas with more classically "leached" tropical soils in continental areas, like where I am, sitting on Ultisols located in a high rainfall environment on steep slopes that test low in pretty much everything on a total element assay. I considered adding some table salt, but then decided I'd be better with Potassium chloride, because the soils are deficient in Potassium, which is the palm's principal nutrient requirement anyway. Some folks in different parts of the region have experimented with irrigating their crops (not just coconut) with ocean water that they trucked across the Andes. They bragged about how beneficial it was. But that was all anecdotal. Personally I didn't want to play around with Sodium chloride like they do in the Philippines, because I don't have any coconut monocultures, my palms are always located in proximity to other species, and so I didn't want to risk harming the other ones, even though I'm sure the coconuts would react well.

I will echo what others have mentioned in this thread: that Cocos nucifera generally dislikes cool, cloudy weather. We planted over 1000 of them all over our property in 2020, but we've lost close to 90%. I think my last count a month ago was around 130. I'm sure a lot had to do with nutrient deficiencies as well as neglect. It's been interesting to see how some have survived. Some grow better than others. Even in the third of the property with the most fertile soil, we lost all but one. It must have something to do with the soil being more clayey in that sector. There are a few that have performed well on their own, and have now been identified as priority care. It really is a genetic lottery.

Anyway, my point here is that we are located at 900m, which really isn't all that high. Coldest I've ever seen here was 57F. We get quite a bit of cloud cover. I think that could be a limiting factor. However we're not much cooler than most of the region. A lot of people get the idea that we're in some cloudforest, but I wouldn't describe it like that at all. This is high jungle. It is essentially the same as the low jungle. Slightly cloudier, and slightly cooler...very slightly. Nonetheless, I'm confident the climate here limits the success of coconuts to a degree.

Other examples come to mind, like a photo I saw of a coconut in Medellin, Colombia growing at 1500m (quite a lot higher than here). Maybe they get more sun there? Cocos nucifera, really needs a lot of sunshine. One Indian publication I read, stated they require at least 120 hour of sunshine per month and 2000 hours per year. At our site, we can have trouble getting those 120 hours per month during the rainy season. But even on damp, cloudy days our high temperatures are always above 70F. Usually we get above 80F even with cloud cover. If the sun comes out we easily get to the upper 80s. Coastal California, on the other hand you get those May Gray / June gloom days where temperatures never get out of the 60s, and you don't see the sun for weeks. I think the lack of sunshine might even be the biggest limiting factor in a lot of contexts.

 

Edited February 15, 2024 by agroventuresperu
Clarification

[mnorell]

There are a couple of interesting studies on cold tolerance in coconuts that have been recently published. Here is the study that evaluated the relative cold tolerance of the Southern China form. And here is a very complex article on the genetics and chemical/molecular changes that occur in coconuts as cold temperatures take hold. Very interesting but most of us have to skip through all the detailed genetics! I found it very interesting that they found these chemical changes to increase, then decrease after a short time. Thus it would make sense that they can handle brief cold, but not extended coolness/chill. The takeaway here, I think, is that one can actually measure the changes in Cocos nucifera as it tries to deal with cold temperatures...and thus begs the idea that different forms may have differing abilities, stronger or weaker, in reacting to such cold, whether brief or sustained.

[agroventuresperu]

Are there any "tricks" to getting them to resist cloudy weather better? Foliar spray with Magnesium sulfate? You can't really do sap analysis with palms, can you?

[cocoloco]

Hello quick update/shoutout. 

If you guys are looking for different variety coconut palms for a good price, (>30$ shipping included) at a good size as well, go ahead and message Billy D on offer up (https://offerup.com/p/128251540) and ask about the types of coconuts he has and which are best suited for your climate. He’s done an excellent job explaining to me which varieties would do best here in orange county, and he sends beautiful coconuts with good deals and bundles. go check him out and support small businesses. also my coconuts are doing quite well, just taking small hits from our fluctuating springtime weather. (also that giant sad looking palm in the back is a majesty palm i got to save for 11$ at lowes even tho i said support small business😭)

[Arecaceus]

Hey! Does anybody know about the one in Compton? I think I once saw a picture somewhere on PT. I don't know if it was legit as it was planted unprotected randomly along some boulevard.

[cocoloco]

On 5/1/2024 at 9:55 AM, Arecaceus said:

Hey! Does anybody know about the one in Compton? 

Yes! it is in fact a real and alive coconut palm i saw it last week when i was in the area with my family. however I have incredible news. I’m spending a three day trip (tues-thurs) here in Palm Desert/ Palm Springs, CA, and today is currently thursday may 2, 2024 and i drove with my family to the area of the La Quinta Coconut palm and we eventually found it driving down the roads. I took so many pictures of the beautiful rare palm tree and to my surprise the owner came out and started talking to me about the palm. He got the La Quinta Coconut in Honolulu, HI in 2001 as a sprouted coconut. What really threw me over the edge in excitement was the fact that he handed me one of the little coconuts it produced a few weeks ago and said i could look under the tree and find some. This homeowner is the most kindest person ever to let me take home a true palm fanatic souvenir, REAL california COCONUT FRUITS!! (they’re obviously immature due to california weather). I had also mentioned to him how i live very close to the Santa Ana coconut palm and how his La Quinta Coconut is almost three times as tall as the one in Santa Ana, Orange county. He said his coconut palm grows 1 foot a year.

[Fukuoka Scott]

8 hours ago, cocoloco said:

Yes! it is in fact a real and alive coconut palm i saw it last week when i was in the area with my family. however I have incredible news. I’m spending a three day trip (tues-thurs) here in Palm Desert/ Palm Springs, CA, and today is currently thursday may 2, 2024 and i drove with my family to the area of the La Quinta Coconut palm and we eventually found it driving down the roads. I took so many pictures of the beautiful rare palm tree and to my surprise the owner came out and started talking to me about the palm. He got the La Quinta Coconut in Honolulu, HI in 2001 as a sprouted coconut. What really threw me over the edge in excitement was the fact that he handed me one of the little coconuts it produced a few weeks ago and said i could look under the tree and find some. This homeowner is the most kindest person ever to let me take home a true palm fanatic souvenir, REAL california COCONUT FRUITS!! (they’re obviously immature due to california weather). I had also mentioned to him how i live very close to the Santa Ana coconut palm and how his La Quinta Coconut is almost three times as tall as the one in Santa Ana, Orange county. He said his coconut palm grows 1 foot a year.

That really looks like a Beccariophoenix alfredii to me. The boots of the fronds don't cling to the trunk like that in Cocos.

[cocoloco]

42 minutes ago, Fukuoka Scott said:

That really looks like a Beccariophoenix alfredii to me. The boots of the fronds don't cling to the trunk like that.

Not quite, i’ve seen smaller beccariophoenix alfredii growing in san diego and even their crown was wayy wider than this La Quinta Coconut. The fronds and base of the crown obviously look funky as the palm isn’t neatly trimmed how you would normally see a coconut, and it’s a palm tree that isn’t meant to be grown here, of course it’s going to look funny trying to grow. You can even see it with the Santa Ana coconut as some of the fronds are stunted and look half chopped. Also although california is not tropical like the location in this forum, 

 but it is clear to see the growth difference between the nucifera palm and the alfredii palm. even if the alfredii had been planted there in 2001, it’s height would probably be barley peaking over the wall. Not to mention but the home owner literally dissected one of the seeds and it had the three little coconut eyes under the small husk. I won’t be dissecting or opening the seeds he gave me because they are such a rare novelty, california coconuts!!!