Archontophoenix Maxima in northeast Florida

[shminbabe]

I grew them from seed and planted three, two-year old Archies, in the ground. Two of them went in last September and survived the Great Christmas Freeze of '22. The third one went in about two months ago following the death of a three-year-old Archontophoenix Cunninghamiana, a victim of the freeze. (Heartbreaking. I loved that tree, from a grower on Pine Island.)  My last one was just transplanted into a 20 gallon container. How long can I let it live in the container? 

Edited May 20, 2023 by shminbabe

[bubba]

Where are you located?

[James B]

Pics and the location would help. There isn’t an exact time line for how long it stays in a pot as nurseries keep palms potted for years. But what could happen: the palms could get really skinny due to its roots not getting the water they need to look their best. So there will be a constant repotting needed which gets more and more challenging the bigger the palm gets. If it’s in a 20 gal it’s prime planting season.

[Merlyn]

Atlantic Beach is on the East coast of FL, at Jacksonville.  I'm guessing it's 10a/9b borderline.  I'd think you could easily grow it to trunking in a 20 gallon, I've seen them at nurseries at that size.  It'll grow faster in the ground, for sure.  A couple of pics of your 20 gallon palm would help "guesstimate" how many years you could keep it there.

Out of curiosity, what were your low temps last year?  I have some Maxima, Cunninghamiana, and Alexandrae in the ground, and one more Maxima in a pot.  I'm just weighing my planting options for the last Maxima.  They all did okay at around 28F last Christmas, but most were at least somewhat protected against frost.

[NickJames]

6 hours ago, Merlyn said:

Atlantic Beach is on the East coast of FL, at Jacksonville.  I'm guessing it's 10a/9b borderline.  I'd think you could easily grow it to trunking in a 20 gallon, I've seen them at nurseries at that size.  It'll grow faster in the ground, for sure.  A couple of pics of your 20 gallon palm would help "guesstimate" how many years you could keep it there.

Out of curiosity, what were your low temps last year?  I have some Maxima, Cunninghamiana, and Alexandrae in the ground, and one more Maxima in a pot.  I'm just weighing my planting options for the last Maxima.  They all did okay at around 28F last Christmas, but most were at least somewhat protected against frost.

@shminbabe is my bestie so I’ll answer some things I know lol

She took the advective freeze (day after Christmas?) exceptionally poorly. 

i think she hit 28. It was the first freeze recorded in her yard since 2010. She hit 32.1 briefly in 2018.

she has an extraordinary microclimate that seems unfazed by radiational freezes. I just don’t think her neighborhood - with its dense canopy, ocean effect, and high humidity from dense understory growth - can efficiently release heat back into space. 

I would say 80% of years she is 10B, 15% of years she is 10A, 5% of years she is 9B. Note that I’m referring to her neighborhood specifically as heavily deforested locations like Jacksonville Beach etc. will experience different conditions. 

[South Carolina palms]

4 hours ago, NickJames said:

@shminbabe is my bestie so I’ll answer some things I know lol

She took the advective freeze (day after Christmas?) exceptionally poorly. 

i think she hit 28. It was the first freeze recorded in her yard since 2010. She hit 32.1 briefly in 2018.

she has an extraordinary microclimate that seems unfazed by radiational freezes. I just don’t think her neighborhood - with its dense canopy, ocean effect, and high humidity from dense understory growth - can efficiently release heat back into space. 

I would say 80% of years she is 10B, 15% of years she is 10A, 5% of years she is 9B. Note that I’m referring to her neighborhood specifically as heavily deforested locations like Jacksonville Beach etc. will experience different conditions. 

From a microclimate stand point would there be a way to mimic hers? Like plant a bunch of live oaks and other evergreens around your yard to help with frost protection? 

[kinzyjr]

1 minute ago, South Carolina palms said:

From a microclimate stand point would there be a way to mimic hers? Like plant a bunch of live oaks and other evergreens around your yard to help with frost protection?

I'll jump in and say yes since this is what I do here.  It will help with radiational cooling and frost, but advective freezes can still get you pretty bad as @NickJames mentioned.  Ideally, your canopy should open to the south in SE USA to let the winter sun under the canopy.  You can amplify this effect by trimming the ends of a few of the branches to remove the weight from the end that keeps branches from extending horizontally.

For an advective freeze, you'll need wind breaks to your north and west in the form of some dense plants or a building.  Even then, if it isn't within ~5F of a temperature the plant would typically survive, it's likely the plant will die in spite of all of this.

[shminbabe]

18 hours ago, bubba said:

Where are you located?

I'm located in the Jacksonville beaches area, about 3 blocks from the beach.  I have a maritime forest environment.

[shminbabe]

17 hours ago, James B said:

Pics and the location would help. There isn’t an exact time line for how long it stays in a pot as nurseries keep palms potted for years. But what could happen: the palms could get really skinny due to its roots not getting the water they need to look their best. So there will be a constant repotting needed which gets more and more challenging the bigger the palm gets. If it’s in a 20 gal it’s prime planting season.

I'll get some pics to post soon. I'm just hoping to keep it in a pot for a while and see how my in-ground Archies do over the next year or two.  

[shminbabe]

Yes to everything @NickJamesposted.  As I recall that dreaded freeze, we had THREE consecutive nights with temps in the 28 degree range. A definite hard freeze each night. I think the only reason my Alexandrae survived was that one of our team members wrapped the fronds with a blanket and positioned a heat lamp on it.  The fronds were significantly burned but the heart was saved by the warmth.

Other 'out-of-zone' trees I like to observe around here didn't survive.

[PalmatierMeg]

I read that Archo max survived lows down to 24F in TX and may be the cold hardiest Archonotophoenix

[Merlyn]

@shminbabethose temps sound pretty similar to mine.  The end-of-January freeze in 2022 got down to 24.4F in my backyard, and caused a lot more carnage with the frost.  But this one had a lot of hours under freezing, about 22 hours total:

[Xenon]

2 hours ago, PalmatierMeg said:

I read that Archo max survived lows down to 24F in TX and may be the cold hardiest Archonotophoenix

I've also seen what looks like A. alexandrae survive too. Keep in mind royals and foxtails also lived, so don't expect miracles 

[NickJames]

15 hours ago, South Carolina palms said:

From a microclimate stand point would there be a way to mimic hers? Like plant a bunch of live oaks and other evergreens around your yard to help with frost protection? 

It’s hard to replicate something that took nature hundreds of years to produce. She has the tallest southern magnolia I’ve personally ever seen. It’s actually large enough for a “heritage tree” designation. She also has oaks, sweetgum, and also pretty ancient Sabal palmetto - pretty unique environment that feels particularly wild considering it’s 3 blocks from the ocean. Of course just 3 blocks east it’s rather arid and completely different. 

[shminbabe]

13 hours ago, NickJames said:

It’s hard to replicate something that took nature hundreds of years to produce. She has the tallest southern magnolia I’ve personally ever seen. It’s actually large enough for a “heritage tree” designation. She also has oaks, sweetgum, and also pretty ancient Sabal palmetto - pretty unique environment that feels particularly wild considering it’s 3 blocks from the ocean. Of course just 3 blocks east it’s rather arid and completely different. 

It's a bit like Jekyll Island and even Cumberland, had all us residents not come in and torn the place up. Lol. Atlantic Beach takes its tree canopies very seriously though. And I would love to know exactly how old that Magnolia is. The owls and hawks love it here.

[bubba]

Best friend from Orlando has a Beach House at Atlantic Beach ( which he calls AB). This is a very cool (not temperature) area, with eclectic shops and restaurants all within walking distance. A major microclimate and it is not uncommon to see palms and foliage that are totally unexpected.

[shminbabe]

On 5/22/2023 at 7:56 AM, bubba said:

Best friend from Orlando has a Beach House at Atlantic Beach ( which he calls AB). This is a very cool (not temperature) area, with eclectic shops and restaurants all within walking distance. A major microclimate and it is not uncommon to see palms and foliage that are totally unexpected.

It's really a lovely and special area with so much to offer. Just as you describe.

[shminbabe]

On 5/21/2023 at 2:47 AM, shminbabe said:

I'll get some pics to post soon. I'm just hoping to keep it in a pot for a while and see how my in-ground Archies do over the next year or two.  

So in the first pic foreground you see a baby Archontophoenix Maxima grown from seed purchased from our very own @PalmatierMegtwo years ago. It survived the freeze with some frond burns (it was pretty well covered up by us). In the second pic, you see the Archie in container, that I just transplanted from a smaller one. I'm wondering how long I can keep it in a container that size. In the background of the second pic you can see the another Archie Max grown from that same batch of seeds.  I planted those two in the ground in September 2022.

[NickJames]

28 minutes ago, shminbabe said:

So in the first pic foreground you see a baby Archontophoenix Maxima grown from seed purchased from our very own @PalmatierMegtwo years ago. It survived the freeze with some frond burns (it was pretty well covered up by us). In the second pic, you see the Archie in container, that I just transplanted from a smaller one. I'm wondering how long I can keep it in a container that size. In the background of the second pic you can see the another Archie Max grown from that same batch of seeds.  I planted those two in the ground in September 2022.

Celebrating you!

[Merlyn]

@shminbabethat's a pretty big pot for that palm...if it were anything but a water-loving palm I'd think it's "overpotted."  Big pots can retain more water, which could be bad for palms that like it dry.  Anyway, I have seen trunking Cunninghamiana in pots that size at a local nursery.  I'd think you could grow it in that for several years.  As a reference, my Maxima is a bit bigger than that, and I have it in a nominal 1 gallon pot.

[shminbabe]

12 hours ago, Merlyn said:

@shminbabethat's a pretty big pot for that palm...if it were anything but a water-loving palm I'd think it's "overpotted."  Big pots can retain more water, which could be bad for palms that like it dry.  Anyway, I have seen trunking Cunninghamiana in pots that size at a local nursery.  I'd think you could grow it in that for several years.  As a reference, my Maxima is a bit bigger than that, and I have it in a nominal 1 gallon pot.

I had it in a pot about half that size, and it was putting its roots through to the ground!

[Brian M]

On 5/21/2023 at 12:13 PM, NickJames said:

 She has the tallest southern magnolia I’ve personally ever seen. It’s actually large enough for a “heritage tree” designation.

We've got some monsters in my neighborhood. Several they are well north of 50' tall.