Date palms in the Netherlands - signs of decay

[pnl22]

Hi everyone,

I have been growing two date palms in from seed for the last 2 years. I am based just outside Amsterdam, Netherlands.

I gave a third one to a friend who lived in Portugal after it started growing a bit from the seed and it is doing great. That one has a thick trunk by now and many more leaves, which are also darker green. I have attached a photo for comparison purposes.

However, my two date palms are not doing very well... The leaves have started getting brown and some have even dried out. Is it too much water? Too little water? I also noticed that small roots have started coming out at the bottom of the pot of one palm, but nothing major yet.

They are at the brightest spot in the house and the house temperature never drops below 17C/63C in winter. It is usually between 19C/66F and 28C/83F, depending on the season. Humidity is usually between 45% and 60%. Anything I can do to save them? 

[JacoPalmsCo]

How much are you watering it?

[pnl22]

I water them if the top 10-15cm feel dry. 

[PalmsandLiszt]

They don't look at death's door, by any stretch. I'd guess they'd probably want more light and higher average temperature, and you might have over-watered when the temperature was too low, when they want to be relatively dry. Of course they'll do better in Portugal where it's warmer and the summer sunshine is much more intense.

[SeanK]

Too cool. Try a heat mat below or incandescent light above.

[Foxpalms]

I would keep them fairly dry until the temperatures warm up. They look pretty stretched. Does that spot get full sun?

[fotodimatti]

low temperatures indoors should not be the problem. In Spain, they endure some 5 degrees C. in winter.
So, I would not recommend warmer temperatures. 5-15 degrees would be perfect.
But yes, the light intensity is clearly different.
Put grow lights on them for the winter season.
Good luck!

[fotodimatti]

This is a very general way to treat Mediterranean plants in winter in Northern Europe (German: Kalthauspflanze).
Only tropical plants really like warm temperatures in winter.

[Zeni]

I think it is the pot. Looks too big and too wide. 

I recommend using those narrow and tall palm seedling pots until you see two pinnate fronds, maybe then size up.

[Zeni]

On 4/20/2023 at 3:35 PM, SeanK said:

Too cool. Try a heat mat below or incandescent light above.

I don't think coolness could be it. I also live in the Netherlands and have been growing palm seedlings near a window and they are doing great and grew a lot during winter. It looks like the container is too large for the seedling and may be causing some root rot or roots are not enjoying the excess water.  

Using a smaller palm seedling pot + adding some perlite into the soil mixture should do the trick.

[Pal Meir]

Your soil mix is wrong, too much humus. If you don't want to mix your own, you may use sand rich soil for cacti. — I add some pics of Ph dactylifera, grown up from commercial dates.

In its 2nd year after germination:

The same palm one year later in a Ø12cmxH12cm plastic pot:

Another palm kept small by root pruning, 18 year old:

[pnl22]

Some interesting thoughts here, thanks. I'll try to improve the soil situation and water them more carefully.

I put the palms on the balcony yesterday as it's getting crowded inside. Lows will get down to 6-8C (43-46F) and highs around 17-22C (63-72F) in the coming days. Bad idea or are they going to be OK? Can you actually tell from the pictures how cold hardy they might be? No idea about the species, as I just grew them from fresh fate palm seeds from the super market.

[Foxpalms]

On 5/23/2023 at 8:11 PM, pnl22 said:

Some interesting thoughts here, thanks. I'll try to improve the soil situation and water them more carefully.

I put the palms on the balcony yesterday as it's getting crowded inside. Lows will get down to 6-8C (43-46F) and highs around 17-22C (63-72F) in the coming days. Bad idea or are they going to be OK? Can you actually tell from the pictures how cold hardy they might be? No idea about the species, as I just grew them from fresh fate palm seeds from the super market.

They will be fine outside.

[Zeni]

On 5/23/2023 at 9:11 PM, pnl22 said:

Some interesting thoughts here, thanks. I'll try to improve the soil situation and water them more carefully.

I put the palms on the balcony yesterday as it's getting crowded inside. Lows will get down to 6-8C (43-46F) and highs around 17-22C (63-72F) in the coming days. Bad idea or are they going to be OK? Can you actually tell from the pictures how cold hardy they might be? No idea about the species, as I just grew them from fresh fate palm seeds from the super market.

Should be fine, but with moving indoor palms outside check the weather forecast for next week. Luckily this week it is rather cloudy (yet oddly dry), so should be fine.. but if you move them outdoors on a very sunny week with no cloud coverage, they could get fried. 

Also, on extreme summer days where it is like 30-40 C put a parasol over them. Last year my Phoenix Roebelenii got a burned frond from not doing this, hah. Even with it being adjusted to the sun (was outside all growing season). 

[Zeni]

4 minutes ago, Zeni said:

Also, on extreme summer days where it is like 30-40 C put a parasol over them. Last year my Phoenix Roebelenii got a burned frond from not doing this, hah. Even with it being adjusted to the sun (was outside all growing season). 

Come to think of it...this could possibly be only a problem with Phoenix Roebelenii which is an understory jungle palm. Perhaps Phoenix Dactylifera which is from desert oases blasted with sunshine won't ever suffer from this.

[pnl22]

21 hours ago, Zeni said:

Come to think of it...this could possibly be only a problem with Phoenix Roebelenii which is an understory jungle palm. Perhaps Phoenix Dactylifera which is from desert oases blasted with sunshine won't ever suffer from this.

Hi, yes I thought about that, too. Judging from what I have seen online, I guess my palms are the Phoenix Dactylifera type.

They seem to be doing OK for now. Do you move yours indoors in winter? On rare occasions it can get down to -5 or even -10C (23F or 14F) and highs hover around 6-12C (43-54F).

[Zeni]

1 hour ago, pnl22 said:

Hi, yes I thought about that, too. Judging from what I have seen online, I guess my palms are the Phoenix Dactylifera type.

They seem to be doing OK for now. Do you move yours indoors in winter? On rare occasions it can get down to -5 or even -10C (23F or 14F) and highs hover around 6-12C (43-54F).

You can keep palms in pots outside all year and only 'protect' them briefly on nights when it gets under -3 C (luckily not that often, maybe like 7-14 nights for us in western part of NL), but I would only do that with bigger potted palms with a bit of a trunk. Seedling types in smaller pots can't even handle -1 / 0 C as the small pot can freeze more quickly. 

If you want to grow a partially outdoor feather palm in a container long term, I think Phoenix Roebelenii, Butia Odorota, and Jubaea are better options. First one because it remains small and manageable forever. The other two because they grow more slowly and won't get too big for container growing in a long time. Bonus with Jubaea is that due to their rarity you can also get a decent financial return if it gets too big for you, as Jubaeas get sold for high prices. Dactylifera and Canariensis can get too big in a few years. 

[pnl22]

The date palms have been outside for a few days now and I had to cut a couple of leaves that were half gone. They now get 5-6 hours of direct sunlight. Have not watered them at all, because the soil still feels a bit damp when I check with my finger (I will upgrade the mix, as suggested).

Some of you told me that the pots might be too big, but I was surprised to see roots that came out of the holes of the right pot. What does that mean? It's a bit confusing.

[Zeni]

41 minutes ago, pnl22 said:

Some of you told me that the pots might be too big, but I was surprised to see roots that came out of the holes of the right pot. What does that mean? It's a bit confusing.

Desert palms like Dactylifera or Filifera often develop very long roots that go down quickly (adaptation), but they often don't develop good roots sideways where the rot can happen. A narrow long pot is recommended with palm seedlings. Yours is still in the seedling stage with no pinnate fronds. 

Edited Wednesday at 05:00 PM by Zeni

[PalmsandLiszt]

14 hours ago, pnl22 said:

Some of you told me that the pots might be too big, but I was surprised to see roots that came out of the holes of the right pot. What does that mean? It's a bit confusing.

These palms are adapted to very arid desert conditions: when it's hot it's very hot with intense sunlight; when it's cold it's very dry. What you want to avoid is cold and wet. I'd not soak pots that size containing seedlings that size, but water them sparingly. Ideally, you want a pot small enough for the palm to suck all the moisture out relatively quickly. Otherwise you can get dead, anoxic patches of wet soil that cause root rot. Heft the pot to determine whether it needs watering. The pots aren't ideal but I think the seedlings should be all right if you water very carefully.

[Foxpalms]

I think the pot size is fine but I would let them dry out before watering. In full sun you might have to water them once a week, however it depends on what the temperature is.