United Kingdom vs Holland vs Central Texas Mega Thread

[Foxpalms]

5 minutes ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

Let’s stick to the topic Foxpalms. You posted a nice example of a long term CIDP outside greater London, appreciated. I wasn’t there during the winters but at least in the past it seems to have been protected by the owners. Why do i say that? Look at the green fronds of the CIDP in august 2012 and look at the fronds of the butia across the street at the same time.

I know someone who lives in that area and according to them it's never been protected in recent years including this winter and 2018. It could have been in the past though, but at least not recently.

[MarcusH]

46 minutes ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

?

I thought this debate was all about that? 

It’s easy:

-Washies and CIDP’s burn severly every couple of years in green areas in London which are located outside of the UHI

-So outside of London in inland UK they do even worse because these areas are colder than the greater London area. There are no known pictures of large survivors so far.

-Texas has washingtonias outside the UHI’s and also in large open spaces.

 

As I mentioned earlier at least 40 percent of TX you can plant palms anywhere you want from seeds or transplanted without looking for a wall or buildings or anything that creates an artificial climate (UHI) . Palms grow here naturally.  

[kristof p]

Hello from Belguim 😛 ...Not Holland, Uk or central Texas but I am very close to the UK (100km east of dover) and ofcourse the Netherlands (not Holland  )

Are there any nice Jubaea or Butia growing in central Texas or the UK? I know Jubaea and bigger specimens of Butia should be fine in most places in England and Wales and there are a few nice Butia's growing in the UK but I have no idea about central Texas?. I asume a big Jubaea or Butia can also recover from the short heavy freezes in central texas just like a P. canarensis or W. filifera does?

Here in Belguim (at the same latitude as Dover and a few miles inland) Jubaea are proving to be much hardier then any other feather palm. I have to admit that I never have grown a big specimen of P. canarensis but I have tryed many smaller one's but they all got killed between 2010/2012 (with heavy protection) while my Jubaea's surivived with less protection. 2 of them are now grown to a size where they seem to be bulletproof and have not seen any protection for many years now. The Biggest one I stopped protecting after the 2012 winter...The seedling Jubaea only got some bags filled with leaves on top of it during those cold winters and did fine....that is the only protection it ever recieved and it also never showed any damage so far.

After Jubaea it seems that Butia is the next hardy feather palm for here and my B. capitata has now grown in a fat big trunking palm who can take a lot of cold. The last time I gave it protection is at least 8 or 9 years ago with one exception in februari 2021 with a temperature prediction of -11°C or so and I panicked and cutted all the leaves to be able to give it some protection and build a kind of wigwam around the stem. All this was not needed in the end as it never got this cold and it would have been fine at this size.  Before 2010 I had 5 Butia growing but this is the only survivor of the 5 I had so I feel very lucky with this one survivor. Not saying that it thrives here but it has produced viable seeds and I have seedlings growing of this palm. 

I do not know why I never tryed a good sized W. filifera but I think they would be fine over here for most winters.

[NBTX11]

24 minutes ago, MarcusH said:

The NE side of SA in the area of Windcrest,  Universal City, Live Oak etc isn't really rich in palms like you would see in downtown.  At least not many skyduster most of the palms are still small 5 to 10 ft with some old filiferas in between . Lots of businesses plant sabals you only get to see those when you're close by due to its small height. I have noticed NB has a lot of palms and beautiful ones.  The city is definitely more palm friendly.  

You should have seen it prior to 2021. We lost a lot of big queen palms and washy robusta including some skydusters. Sad. 

[NBTX11]

27 minutes ago, MarcusH said:

As I mentioned earlier at least 40 percent of TX you can plant palms anywhere you want from seeds or transplanted without looking for a wall or buildings or anything that creates an artificial climate (UHI) . Palms grow here naturally.  

Probably more like 60-70 percent of Texas. The Sabal is native to Texas. Both Mexicana and minor are native to Texas. Mexicana can be grown almost anywhere in Texas outside of the panhandle and extreme north Texas. Essentially anywhere south of Dallas and probably all the way to the Oklahoma border they’re good to go long term. 

Edited March 29, 2023 by NBTX11

[NBTX11]

27 minutes ago, kristof p said:

Hello from Belguim 😛 ...Not Holland, Uk or central Texas but I am very close to the UK (100km east of dover) and ofcourse the Netherlands (not Holland  )

Are there any nice Jubaea or Butia growing in central Texas or the UK? I know Jubaea and bigger specimens of Butia should be fine in most places in England and Wales and there are a few nice Butia's growing in the UK but I have no idea about central Texas?. I asume a big Jubaea or Butia can also recover from the short heavy freezes in central texas just like a P. canarensis or W. filifera does?

Here in Belguim (at the same latitude as Dover and a few miles inland) Jubaea are proving to be much hardier then any other feather palm. I have to admit that I never have grown a big specimen of P. canarensis but I have tryed many smaller one's but they all got killed between 2010/2012 (with heavy protection) while my Jubaea's surivived with less protection. 2 of them are now grown to a size where they seem to be bulletproof and have not seen any protection for many years now. The Biggest one I stopped protecting after the 2012 winter...The seedling Jubaea only got some bags filled with leaves on top of it during those cold winters and did fine....that is the only protection it ever recieved and it also never showed any damage so far.

After Jubaea it seems that Butia is the next hardy feather palm for here and my B. capitata has now grown in a fat big trunking palm who can take a lot of cold. The last time I gave it protection is at least 8 or 9 years ago with one exception in februari 2021 with a temperature prediction of -11°C or so and I panicked and cutted all the leaves to be able to give it some protection and build a kind of wigwam around the stem. All this was not needed in the end as it never got this cold and it would have been fine at this size.  Before 2010 I had 5 Butia growing but this is the only survivor of the 5 I had so I feel very lucky with this one survivor. Not saying that it thrives here but it has produced viable seeds and I have seedlings growing of this palm. 

I do not know why I never tryed a good sized W. filifera but I think they would be fine over here for most winters.

Butia hates central Texas soil immensely. They simply won’t grow here and it’s not due to cold. As far as Jubaea there was a large one on the Riverwalk that was planted in the 1960s apparently. It died 2021 I think. It was truly massive. Google the San Antonio Riverwalk Jubaea. 

[ChicagoPalma]

San Antonio River walk 2021

 

[Foxpalms]

55 minutes ago, kristof p said:

Hello from Belguim 😛 ...Not Holland, Uk or central Texas but I am very close to the UK (100km east of dover) and ofcourse the Netherlands (not Holland  )

Are there any nice Jubaea or Butia growing in central Texas or the UK? I know Jubaea and bigger specimens of Butia should be fine in most places in England and Wales and there are a few nice Butia's growing in the UK but I have no idea about central Texas?. I asume a big Jubaea or Butia can also recover from the short heavy freezes in central texas just like a P. canarensis or W. filifera does?

Here in Belguim (at the same latitude as Dover and a few miles inland) Jubaea are proving to be much hardier then any other feather palm. I have to admit that I never have grown a big specimen of P. canarensis but I have tryed many smaller one's but they all got killed between 2010/2012 (with heavy protection) while my Jubaea's surivived with less protection. 2 of them are now grown to a size where they seem to be bulletproof and have not seen any protection for many years now. The Biggest one I stopped protecting after the 2012 winter...The seedling Jubaea only got some bags filled with leaves on top of it during those cold winters and did fine....that is the only protection it ever recieved and it also never showed any damage so far.

After Jubaea it seems that Butia is the next hardy feather palm for here and my B. capitata has now grown in a fat big trunking palm who can take a lot of cold. The last time I gave it protection is at least 8 or 9 years ago with one exception in februari 2021 with a temperature prediction of -11°C or so and I panicked and cutted all the leaves to be able to give it some protection and build a kind of wigwam around the stem. All this was not needed in the end as it never got this cold and it would have been fine at this size.  Before 2010 I had 5 Butia growing but this is the only survivor of the 5 I had so I feel very lucky with this one survivor. Not saying that it thrives here but it has produced viable seeds and I have seedlings growing of this palm. 

I do not know why I never tryed a good sized W. filifera but I think they would be fine over here for most winters.

Here are a few in the UK.

 

Edited March 29, 2023 by Foxpalms

[Little Tex]

22 minutes ago, NBTX11 said:

Butia hates central Texas soil immensely.

Not exactly true, but west of schulenberg and north of freer they are a no-go, there are ancient ones in  Houston and nice ones north up to conroe

[Axel Amsterdam]

2 hours ago, Foxpalms said:

Also there are Washingtonia and CIDP growing away from the coast or the urban heat island in some milder parts of the UK, however according to axel the ones in Cornwall don't count because it's "mild". 

Indeed, Cornwall is famous for being mild. I am looking for longer term CIDP’s and washingtonia’s in this part of the UK. 

[NBTX11]

1 minute ago, Little Tex said:

Not exactly true, but west of schulenberg and north of freer they are a no-go, there are ancient ones in  Houston and nice ones north up to conroe

I’m talking about the San Antonio to Austin corridor. I’ve tried multiple times and they all died. And that was in warm winters. 

[NBTX11]

18 minutes ago, ChicagoPalma said:

San Antonio River walk 2021

 

I suggest our UK friends look at this thread to see the size of San Antonio palms. You’ll be forgiven for mistakenly thinking it’s LA or the RGV. 

Edited March 29, 2023 by NBTX11

[Arecaceus]

@MarcusHWhy are you ignoring my responses, to your rude comments?
 

 

[Teegurr]

2 hours ago, kristof p said:

Hello from Belguim 😛 ...Not Holland, Uk or central Texas but I am very close to the UK (100km east of dover) and ofcourse the Netherlands (not Holland  )

Are there any nice Jubaea or Butia growing in central Texas or the UK? I know Jubaea and bigger specimens of Butia should be fine in most places in England and Wales and there are a few nice Butia's growing in the UK but I have no idea about central Texas?. I asume a big Jubaea or Butia can also recover from the short heavy freezes in central texas just like a P. canarensis or W. filifera does?

Here in Belguim (at the same latitude as Dover and a few miles inland) Jubaea are proving to be much hardier then any other feather palm. I have to admit that I never have grown a big specimen of P. canarensis but I have tryed many smaller one's but they all got killed between 2010/2012 (with heavy protection) while my Jubaea's surivived with less protection. 2 of them are now grown to a size where they seem to be bulletproof and have not seen any protection for many years now. The Biggest one I stopped protecting after the 2012 winter...The seedling Jubaea only got some bags filled with leaves on top of it during those cold winters and did fine....that is the only protection it ever recieved and it also never showed any damage so far.

After Jubaea it seems that Butia is the next hardy feather palm for here and my B. capitata has now grown in a fat big trunking palm who can take a lot of cold. The last time I gave it protection is at least 8 or 9 years ago with one exception in februari 2021 with a temperature prediction of -11°C or so and I panicked and cutted all the leaves to be able to give it some protection and build a kind of wigwam around the stem. All this was not needed in the end as it never got this cold and it would have been fine at this size.  Before 2010 I had 5 Butia growing but this is the only survivor of the 5 I had so I feel very lucky with this one survivor. Not saying that it thrives here but it has produced viable seeds and I have seedlings growing of this palm. 

I do not know why I never tryed a good sized W. filifera but I think they would be fine over here for most winters.

There are some nice butias in College Station. No Jubaea though, too hot and humid.

[UK_Palms]

Not much is beating the Jubaea at Torquay in Devon on the mainland. Unfortunately it’s within a gated estate, so cannot be properly seen in person. It was supposedly planted absolutely tiny around 1930. It is self seeding there profusely nowadays. I noticed offspring growing off to the side as well when I visited last summer. This is probably the best Jubaea in northwest Europe, or Northern Europe entirely, partly due to the fact it has gone from like 2 foot in height to about 45-50 foot there. It hasn’t been carted in already big or anything. Nowhere else in northern Europe is going to match this.

 

The biggest Butia that I have seen over here is planted in Penzance, Cornwall. It is taller than it appears in my photos. Probably about 35 foot in total. Again, it was planted very small sometime around the 1940’s, I believe. I did speak with the 98 year old woman who owns the house and she said that it was already present when she purchased the house in like 1958 or something. I am personally not a huge fan of Butia’s, especially since the crowns tend to thin out as they get bigger and older, looking less dense and lush. 30 year old specimens often look better than 60 year old specimens for that reason, minus the height difference. This specimen is at least 70 years old now. Perhaps even 80 years old from seed. Certainly in the ‘ancient’ category looking at that trunk!

 

The UK definitely wins out when it comes to Butia and Jubaea. Sorry Texas and Netherlands. There are actually loads over here and I can dig out a few more ‘ancient’ ones, but these two speak volumes on their own and I can’t really be bothered. I need to work on the CIDP and Washie growth rates post vs Houston. 😜

[Axel Amsterdam]

16 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

 

 

The UK definitely wins out when it comes to Butia and Jubaea. Sorry Texas and Netherlands

On behalf of Texas and Holland, thanks Ben for the apologies, it means a lot coming from you. The original question was asked by Kristof who is from Belgium though 🤡

Edited March 29, 2023 by Axel Amsterdam

[MarcusH]

1 hour ago, Hortulanus said:

@MarcusHWhy are you ignoring my responses, to your rude comments?
 

 

I'm sorry I haven't seen your comment.  What rude comment ? Where did I mention your name ? 

[MarcusH]

2 hours ago, NBTX11 said:

You should have seen it prior to 2021. We lost a lot of big queen palms and washy robusta including some skydusters. Sad. 

James I was here before 2021 but I wasn't a palm enthusiast I didn't recognize all types of palms . My eyes were focused on the skyduster and SA had a lot of them even in our neighborhood.  Sadly most of them died up here the trunks weren't removed in most cases . In 10 to 20 years you see a lot more filibusta / filiferas reaching mature size .  Maybe one day the dead robustas get removed and make room for other palms. 

[Pee Dee Palms]

35 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

Not much is beating the Jubaea at Torquay in Devon on the mainland. Unfortunately it’s within a gated estate, so cannot be properly seen in person. It was supposedly planted absolutely tiny around 1930. It is self seeding there profusely nowadays. I noticed offspring growing off to the side as well when I visited last summer. This is probably the best Jubaea in northwest Europe, or Northern Europe entirely, partly due to the fact it has gone from like 2 foot in height to about 45-50 foot there. It hasn’t been carted in already big or anything. Nowhere else in northern Europe is going to match this.

 

The biggest Butia that I have seen over here is planted in Penzance, Cornwall. It is taller than it appears in my photos. Probably about 35 foot in total. Again, it was planted very small sometime around the 1940’s, I believe. I did speak with the 98 year old woman who owns the house and she said that it was already present when she purchased the house in like 1958 or something. I am personally not a huge fan of Butia’s, especially since the crowns tend to thin out as they get bigger and older, looking less dense and lush. 30 year old specimens often look better than 60 year old specimens for that reason, minus the height difference. This specimen is at least 70 years old now. Perhaps even 80 years old from seed. Certainly in the ‘ancient’ category looking at that trunk!

 

The UK definitely wins out when it comes to Butia and Jubaea. Sorry Texas and Netherlands. There are actually loads over here and I can dig out a few more ‘ancient’ ones, but these two speak volumes on their own and I can’t really be bothered. I need to work on the CIDP and Washie growth rates post vs Houston. 😜

UK might take the cake for better Butia compared to Texas, but other parts of the Southeast absolutely destroy the UK when it comes to Butia (not Florida). Must say though, UK easily wins in the Jubaea category. Too hot and humid here.

[jwitt]

3 hours ago, MarcusH said:

As I mentioned earlier at least 40 percent of TX you can plant palms anywhere you want from seeds or transplanted without looking for a wall or buildings or anything that creates an artificial climate (UHI) . Palms grow here naturally.  

I wager that 40% is actually quite low. 

Just a bit of irrigation....

Edited March 29, 2023 by jwitt

[Arecaceus]

18 minutes ago, MarcusH said:

I'm sorry I haven't seen your comment.  What rude comment ? Where did I mention your name ? 

I posted: Not taking sides, but I oppose the claim that palmageddons can happen anywhere (the way they happen in the US). The extreme cold blasts continental (especially East) North America gets reaching far into the South are not occuring in Europe. While the South of the US has a better latitude and a better climate for most palms it can get sudden, extreme cold snaps very far down. Cold blasts in Europe affect mostly the North and the East. Sometimes even to the far West and down to the Mediterranean but they are much less severe. There is just not enough continental mass to create those situations. And Western winds are predominant (thus comming from the sea). Surely even the Rhineland area, the UK and even the South of France can get very cold temperatures every once in a while but they are generally never as cold as most of the ones measured during North American (East) cold blasts. The issues for us here is much more the rest of winter with cool temperatures and rain. Winters here like in 2009/10 or 2021 can harm and kill many palms for sure but those are not complete wipe outs and here we all also rely on smaller areas that are mild enough. I'm not saying that this makes the Southern US a bad place to plant palms and I don't want to let Southern England compete with Texas or anything. I'm just trying to say that there is big difference in those cold events. If you want to compare cold blasts in Western Europe, they are more comparable (not completely) with the ones in the PNW.

To what you replied: I lived 4 decades in a city called Paderborn which is 2 hrs away from Duesseldorf.  Before I moved here to TX in 2021 we had a few winters with temperatures of 10F and lower within a decade and Duesseldorf is only a few degrees warmer I doubt Germany has any potential for succeful palm growth it's too cold for too long.  This is all theory you come up with nobody can predict the climate of the next 30 years not even you.

To what I replied: I know Paderborn. 😂 In Düsseldorf and the surrounding areas palm trees have been grown since the 1960s!!! Trachycarpus of course but they are palms. Trachies are everywhere around here and those plus Chamaerops humilis have been proven to be hardy here even during the coldest of winters. Other palms also have been planted around here before the last extreme events and have survived. I also posted about some other species grown here in the area:
 

Of course we can't grow everything here but quiet a few hardy palms. I have Washingtonias that have survived the arctic spell of 2021. They also seem to have survived this years very inconsistant bad winter. They don't look great after an extreme event of course but most winters they are fine.

I don't know if you feel provoked by the UK palm growers and are including me but I was only trying to make a point about the difference between the two types of cold blasts. It's not theory I come up with. I didn't make any predictions about the next 30 years but the tendency shows rather a warmer climate than a colder one. But that's not what I was going for. I don't understand why this topic is so sensitive. 🤷‍♂️

To what you replied nothing and to what I quoted you then with: Yet I still don't understand why you dragged me into this. 😅 You said "I doubt Germany has any potential for succeful palm growth it's too cold for too long." even though I only made a comment about the difference between a cold blast in the Southern/Eastern US and the Northwest. I didn't even say anything about palms in Germany and yet you can surely have your doubts but I opposed you in a quoted post, because there are palms growing for decades in the mildest areas here and now you don't even respond. I'm also confused as you told me "... This is all theory you come up with nobody can predict the climate of the next 30 years not even you. ..." even though I didn't make up any theories and also didn't make ANY predictions about the next 30 years. And now you're saying: "... Whatever happened on February 2021 is not going to happen again in our lifetime that storm that knocked out quite a few Robustas in Central, SoCen and SoEast  TX was very unique that's it, ...". This is very contradicting to me. Also I find it a bit rude that out of nowhere you dismiss an entire zone pushing coummnity (mild areas of Germany) without any photo, talk, thread etc., about it. What is the issue here?

You didn't reply to that either.

[jwitt]

18 minutes ago, MarcusH said:

James I was here before 2021 but I wasn't a palm enthusiast I didn't recognize all types of palms . My eyes were focused on the skyduster and SA had a lot of them even in our neighborhood.  Sadly most of them died up here the trunks weren't removed in most cases . In 10 to 20 years you see a lot more filibusta / filiferas reaching mature size .  Maybe one day the dead robustas get removed and make room for other palms. 

Austin had some large queens for quite some time. Back not too, too long ago.  Near long term even. 

It is those 25-50 year events.......

And better odds every inch one moves south 

[Xenon]

13 minutes ago, General Sylvester D. Palm said:

UK might take the cake for better Butia compared to Texas, but other parts of the Southeast absolutely destroy the UK when it comes to Butia (not Florida). Must say though, UK easily wins in the Jubaea category. Too hot and humid here.

 

There are tons of Butia in the Houston Area and surrounding southeast/east Texas to the Louisiana border. Many ancient ones in older neighborhoods. 

There are dozens of Butia sprinkled in the median plantings along a stretch of Interstate 45 in Houston. Butia is a subtropical species so it's no surprise it does well here and is completely bulletproof to all manner of freeze, flood, and hurricane 🙂

 

 

On 2/6/2022 at 9:37 AM, Meangreen94z said:

I’ve always admired these at an old townhome complex in South Houston. The area theoretically may have seen 15°F February 2021, so not an extreme for a Butia. But there’s probably 40 on the property and it doesn’t appear they lost a single one.

 

 

 

Edited March 29, 2023 by Xenon

[Pee Dee Palms]

11 minutes ago, Xenon said:

 

There are tons of Butia in the Houston Area and surrounding southeast/east Texas to the Louisiana border. Many ancient ones in older neighborhoods. 

There are dozens of Butia sprinkled in the median plantings along a stretch of Interstate 45 in Houston. Butia is a subtropical species so it's no surprise it does well here and is completely bulletproof to all manner of freeze, flood, and hurricane 🙂

 

 

 

 

 

Wow! That is impressive. From what I've heard, Houston is a bit more humid than the more inland parts of Texas which would explain Butia growing there. Those ones looks even larger than the one in the UK.

Edited March 29, 2023 by General Sylvester D. Palm

[MarcusH]

6 minutes ago, Hortulanus said:

I posted: Not taking sides, but I oppose the claim that palmageddons can happen anywhere (the way they happen in the US). The extreme cold blasts continental (especially East) North America gets reaching far into the South are not occuring in Europe. While the South of the US has a better latitude and a better climate for most palms it can get sudden, extreme cold snaps very far down. Cold blasts in Europe affect mostly the North and the East. Sometimes even to the far West and down to the Mediterranean but they are much less severe. There is just not enough continental mass to create those situations. And Western winds are predominant (thus comming from the sea). Surely even the Rhineland area, the UK and even the South of France can get very cold temperatures every once in a while but they are generally never as cold as most of the ones measured during North American (East) cold blasts. The issues for us here is much more the rest of winter with cool temperatures and rain. Winters here like in 2009/10 or 2021 can harm and kill many palms for sure but those are not complete wipe outs and here we all also rely on smaller areas that are mild enough. I'm not saying that this makes the Southern US a bad place to plant palms and I don't want to let Southern England compete with Texas or anything. I'm just trying to say that there is big difference in those cold events. If you want to compare cold blasts in Western Europe, they are more comparable (not completely) with the ones in the PNW.

To what you replied: I lived 4 decades in a city called Paderborn which is 2 hrs away from Duesseldorf.  Before I moved here to TX in 2021 we had a few winters with temperatures of 10F and lower within a decade and Duesseldorf is only a few degrees warmer I doubt Germany has any potential for succeful palm growth it's too cold for too long.  This is all theory you come up with nobody can predict the climate of the next 30 years not even you.

To what I replied: I know Paderborn. 😂 In Düsseldorf and the surrounding areas palm trees have been grown since the 1960s!!! Trachycarpus of course but they are palms. Trachies are everywhere around here and those plus Chamaerops humilis have been proven to be hardy here even during the coldest of winters. Other palms also have been planted around here before the last extreme events and have survived. I also posted about some other species grown here in the area:
 

Of course we can't grow everything here but quiet a few hardy palms. I have Washingtonias that have survived the arctic spell of 2021. They also seem to have survived this years very inconsistant bad winter. They don't look great after an extreme event of course but most winters they are fine.

I don't know if you feel provoked by the UK palm growers and are including me but I was only trying to make a point about the difference between the two types of cold blasts. It's not theory I come up with. I didn't make any predictions about the next 30 years but the tendency shows rather a warmer climate than a colder one. But that's not what I was going for. I don't understand why this topic is so sensitive. 🤷‍♂️

To what you replied nothing and to what I quoted you then with: Yet I still don't understand why you dragged me into this. 😅 You said "I doubt Germany has any potential for succeful palm growth it's too cold for too long." even though I only made a comment about the difference between a cold blast in the Southern/Eastern US and the Northwest. I didn't even say anything about palms in Germany and yet you can surely have your doubts but I opposed you in a quoted post, because there are palms growing for decades in the mildest areas here and now you don't even respond. I'm also confused as you told me "... This is all theory you come up with nobody can predict the climate of the next 30 years not even you. ..." even though I didn't make up any theories and also didn't make ANY predictions about the next 30 years. And now you're saying: "... Whatever happened on February 2021 is not going to happen again in our lifetime that storm that knocked out quite a few Robustas in Central, SoCen and SoEast  TX was very unique that's it, ...". This is very contradicting to me. Also I find it a bit rude that out of nowhere you dismiss an entire zone pushing coummnity (mild areas of Germany) without any photo, talk, thread etc., about it. What is the issue here?

You didn't reply to that either.

I'm glad you get a chance to grow a few palms in Germany . I have never seen any planted in the ground just palms in pots in front of some businesses or in Duesseldorf along the Rhine . My message is Germany is not an ideal place to grow palms and even with a growing community protection is needed when winters get cold . To me succeful palm growths means a long history of growing palms 50, 100 years plus then you can say palms grow here without protection succefully.  20 or 30 years is not long term success.  

[Xenon]

1 minute ago, General Sylvester D. Palm said:

Wow! That is impressive. From what I've heard, Houston is a bit more humid than the more inland parts of Texas which would make explain Butia growing there. Those ones looks even larger than the one in the UK.

There are much larger palms around, this is just a nice mass planting. Houston a bit more humid is an understatement hahaha. Yes, Houston is similar to places in southeast USA like New Orleans and Jacksonville. Houston averages over 50 inches of rainfall annually. 

[Pee Dee Palms]

4 minutes ago, Xenon said:

There are much larger palms around, this is just a nice mass planting. Houston a bit more humid is an understatement hahaha. Yes, Houston is similar to places in southeast USA like New Orleans and Jacksonville. Houston averages over 50 inches of rainfall annually. 

That's what I figured, seeing how on Google Maps it is much more green than other areas. I absolutely love ancient Butias. Here in my modest 8b South Carolina climate I'm quite proud of this large Butia at a local nursery. Guy who owns the place says it's about 150-200 years old. 

[UK_Palms]

1 minute ago, General Sylvester D. Palm said:

Wow! That is impressive. From what I've heard, Houston is a bit more humid than the more inland parts of Texas which would make explain Butia growing there. Those ones looks even larger than the one in the UK.

They are impressive, but are they ancient plantings, or at least long term specimens like the Butia and Jubaea that I posted above? Or were they shipped in already big a few years ago, or a decade ago? Given the sheer number, it suggests a mass planting of bigger specimens. I would be interested to know the street address for those Butia's in Houston...? @Xenon

We don't ship in big specimens over here. 99.9% of our palms (CIDP, Chamaerops, Brahea, Butia, Jubaea, Trachycarpus, Washingtonia) are planted absolutely tiny (1-2 foot), so we have to patiently wait for big specimens to materialise over time. It's the same with all the palms over here. That further accentuates how impressive our palm scene is nowadays at 50-51N. In theory, we are still in the developmental stages, especially in places like London. Things are only going to get bigger and better.

[Pee Dee Palms]

4 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

They are impressive, but are they ancient plantings, or at least long term specimens like the Butia and Jubaea that I posted above? Or were they shipped in already big a few years ago, or a decade ago? Given the sheer number, it suggests a mass planting of bigger specimens. I would be interested to know the street address for those Butia's in Houston...? @Xenon

We don't ship in big specimens over here. 99.9% of our palms (CIDP, Chamaerops, Brahea, Butia, Jubaea, Trachycarpus, Washingtonia) are planted absolutely tiny (1-2 foot), so we have to patiently wait for big specimens to materialise over time. It's the same with all the palms over here. That further accentuates how impressive our palm scene is nowadays at 50-51N. In theory, we are still in the developmental stages, especially in places like London. Things are only going to get bigger and better.

I must say I am seriously impressed at how many palms are in the UK. They aren't wimpy either, some are absolute beauts.

As far as the big Butia here, I know for a fact that it was planted just a few years ago, so it hasn't grown there all it's life unlike most in the UK.

Now here is a Butia that has been in Myrtle for a long time. When I checked the Google Maps history it has at least been there since 2008.

[Xenon]

9 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

They are impressive, but are they ancient plantings, or at least long term specimens like the Butia and Jubaea that I posted above? Or were they shipped in already big a few years ago, or a decade ago? Given the sheer number, it suggests a mass planting of bigger specimens. I would be interested to know the street address for those Butia's in Houston...? @Xenon

No, they're just old. Probably planted when the townhouses were built in the 1970s. Butia is bulletproof in Houston and shouldn't come as a surprise, it's a zone 8 palm growing in zone 9 🙂

These aren't the biggest nor the oldest, I just don't rememeber street names for such taken for granted palms 

[MarcusH]

52 minutes ago, jwitt said:

Austin had some large queens for quite some time. Back not too, too long ago.  Near long term even. 

It is those 25-50 year events.......

And better odds every inch one moves south 

I planted 2 Queens,  one last year one this year.  One went to the freeze just fine still recovering.  2nd frond is growing.  Queens do well , not bulletproof here but if you're willing to protect them you might keep them alive for a very long time. 

[petiole10]

Portugal anyone?

A  couple of areas of my farm garden/house with just a few of my palms

 

 

[UK_Palms]

@Xenon Those ones are really impressive. They have hardly grown since the 2008 street view, but that seems to be the case with Butia's. They are mega slow and don't reach a massive height. They seem to slow down big time once they reach about 20-25 feet in height. That really old one in Penzance that I posted above has probably barely grown over the past decade or so. They're not as slow growing as Jubaea, but at least Jubaea keeps packing on the height after 'x' amount of years.

Maybe those Houston ones were planted pretty small back in the 70's as you say, or they could have been planted at a decent size already just before the earliest street view image in say the mid 2000's. Either way I will give Houston the nod over London and southern England when it comes to Butia. However, the biggest crowns of any Butia's that I have ever seen are in London. Even in the Med regions, I haven't seen crowns as big or pristine as some of the London ones. Unfortunately they are still quite small.

 

I'm not sure you will find more pristine looking Butia specimens than in London, even though they aren't overly big yet...

 

I photographed this one back in October at Chumleigh Garden in Burgess Park, London. It was planted tiny about a decade ago, but the crown and fronds now extend below the trunk level. They seem to self seed profusely there, similar to the London CIDP.

 

These photos are 2 years old now from my old phone and were taken after the poor winter of 2021 and the unbelievably crap spring that followed. Obviously the Butia don't bat an eyelid in London, however they probably do look a lot better now with even fuller crowns.

 

These are going to need a few decades to attain a commendable size. There are no shortage of Butia in the capital however, just not overly big yet. I could find more big ones, but I am currently putting together a London CIDP / Washingtonia growth rate comparison to measure against Houston.

[Little Tex]

12 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

to measure against Houston.

also account, pretty much all Houston washingtonia were planted post 1989

[Arecaceus]

1 hour ago, MarcusH said:

I'm glad you get a chance to grow a few palms in Germany . I have never seen any planted in the ground just palms in pots in front of some businesses or in Duesseldorf along the Rhine . My message is Germany is not an ideal place to grow palms and even with a growing community protection is needed when winters get cold . To me succeful palm growths means a long history of growing palms 50, 100 years plus then you can say palms grow here without protection succefully.  20 or 30 years is not long term success.  

Palms grow here without protection. Trachycarpus and Chamaerops at least, have been around here for decades and survived the worst winters. Even the city council has planted palms. There are also many long term Jubaeas and Butias around. "20 or 30 years is not long term success"??? Yes it is! 20 or 30 years show everything weather can throw at them. Saying such things is rude to anybody who has been zone pushing and growing for such a long period of time. And as I've said palms have been grown here for over 60 years. Palm culture is only starting to get big here in recent years. Your main point: "Germany is not an ideal place to grow palms". Not Germany but the mildest parts. In fact it's the perfect climate for some palms like Trachycarpus. How long have you been growing palms? I've been growing palms here in the exact same garden for 15 years now. And besides everything that's bulletproof here I tried and pushed so many things with lots of trial and errors and I have many succsess. But that's not the point...

... because you don't even ask about anything you just dismiss a whole palm growing scene and this brings me back to the main point:
I didn't say anything about palms in Germany or the UK. I was talking about the difference between cold blasts in the West and East. You also proceeded to put words in my mouth, I didn't say. TO THEN in another comment right after say the same things, I supposedly said!  So why are you randomly talking down my realm without me even mentioning it? We didn't have any issues before. Not even a discussion... I don't understand the random rudeness behind it. 🤷‍♂️

[UK_Palms]

15 minutes ago, Little Tex said:

also account, pretty much all Houston washingtonia were planted post 1989

The same with London. That big one in Wimbledon was the first to go in I believe, sometime around 1993-94, when it was only about a foot or two in height. A guy from Sicily living in London planted it as an experiment, since nobody else was growing them. He brought a seedling back from Tunisia, since they were impossible to come by in London or the UK back then.

It wasn't until about 2005 when a few other washies started getting planted here and there in the capital by hobbyists who were able to source seeds from overseas. Then sometime around 2007 or 2008, they suddenly became available in a few garden centres and they began getting planted more and more. The same with the CIDP too, although in greater number.

The majority of the 'big' Washingtonia in London are from those original 2005-2008 plantings, when they would have been planted at about 1 foot in height. It took until at least 2018 before we started realising just how well they do here. Likely due to smaller washies looking a bit withered and lethargic, only to burst into life and take off when they start trunking properly.

[Xenon]

44 minutes ago, Little Tex said:

also account, pretty much all Houston washingtonia were planted post 1989

 

58 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

@Xenon These are going to need a few decades to attain a commendable size. There are no shortage of Butia in the capital however, just not overly big yet. I could find more big ones, but I am currently putting together a London CIDP / Washingtonia growth rate comparison to measure against Houston.

If you insist but remember Houston is 20+ degrees closer to the equator...so Occam's razor

Here's a bunch of screen grabs for those who don't know what Houston can look like. Most of these are alive (except the queens), I just picked the nice looking pics. FWIW, I haven't seen any pure robusta looking palms like you would find in LA or Florida in your UK photos. From experience around here, just a drop of filifera blood does wonders for cold hardiness. 

 

 

[Xenon]

Most old CIDP (pre 1970 or so) died within the last 10-15 years from disease...here's a relict that somehow is still alive, notice the elevated overpass and power lines (the palm is huge)

 

Newer plantings are getting some size

 

[JLM]

2 hours ago, General Sylvester D. Palm said:

UK might take the cake for better Butia compared to Texas, but other parts of the Southeast absolutely destroy the UK when it comes to Butia (not Florida). Must say though, UK easily wins in the Jubaea category. Too hot and humid here.

The FL Panhandle might as well just be Alabama. I dont have any picture personally and dont know anything about the butias planted around here, like when they were planted etc, but we do have some real nice ones around here. I can post some from google maps streetview.

Heres some from my neighborhood. They look much better now, as this image was from 2016. They have nice full crowns and flower profusely. They flower during the winter, only for the sensitive flowers to be killed by freezing temps.


Heres a CIDP that looks absolutely stunning. Its just south of me. Image from June 2022. It was there in 2007, per google maps. It survived the 2014 freeze and ice storm event. 


Another butia, this one is near the bay. It looks much taller in person. I like the little lean that it has. Image from January 2023.


This one is just down the street from the one in the above photo. Also taken in January 2023.


Looking down into Pensacola area, this one has some nice size to it. This was in March 2022.


Some more butias in Pensacola. They have seen better days. Also from March 2022.


Also in Pensacola, these guys are working their way up into the powerlines. Also from March 2022.


Heres a washy, this one has been there for a long time. Its on Pensacola Beach. Also from March 2022.


Heres a CIDP(?) in Downtown Pensacola. Wow! Image from May 2022. Whether its a CIDP or not, its still massive and gets credit somewhere.


Heres a couple of washies from the north side of Pensacola. They are looking sad right now, as are all washies in NW FL, from the Christmas freeze. This is an image of what they would normally look like though. Image from November 2021.



The FL Panhandle certainly does not win over Texas in washies nor CIDP. We do win over the UK in butia, and probably Texas as well. Butia is literally everywhere, its probably the second most common palm here behind the native Sabals. The UK 100% has the Jubaeas, theres no arguing this. Ive never seen one around here.

As for what is long term, i would consider 20-30 years as long term. The USDA plant zones are done with 30 year averages. Now since this thread isnt really about FL, peace out yall.

[poof]

plenty of arguing here but i'm impressed at both the freeze survivors in TX and the CIDP above 50n in the UK.