Texas palm photos...

[fr8train]

I've been posting photos in other threads, but I figured I could make this thread to dump them in as I take them. Anyone is free to join me or make their own observations about what's in this thread, and add your own photos. It doesn't have to be Texas exclusively. 

I'll start off with these Sabal mexicana or palmetto? I saw these in El Paso in late December 2022. I've read that San Antonio is their westernmost range, but these seem to be doing very well in the dry climate of El Paso. 

Prior to moving to Texas I hadn't realized just how hardy Sabals are, especially the trunking forms. Seeing how all of the palms here look following these last rough couple of years, they seem indestructible compared to everything else. Where I live now especially, in Hill Country, seeing almost everything else freeze, and the crazy amount of ice we had earlier this year, they still seem mostly fine. 

Here's a house with a lot of palms in Fair Oaks Ranch, just north of San Antonio. Everything other than the Sabals looks pretty beat up, including the Med fan palms:

Their Phoenix look pretty dead, but hopefully they'll recover:

Here's a house on the same street, this Washingtonia and Phoenix look pretty dead too unfortunately: 

Here's a Trachycarpus in the area that looks great by comparison:

 

[jwitt]

I like what's down the street from those mexicana's in El Paso. 

Zoomed in

[Fusca]

2 hours ago, jwitt said:

I like what's down the street from those mexicana's in El Paso. 

Zoomed in

The Grinch?  😄

[MarcusH]

San Antonio Riverwalk.  Livistona , Filibusta.  Took these pictures last week. 

[NBTX11]

Does anyone know what happened to the 3 river walk mule palms?  Did any of them survive the Feb 2021 freeze?

[Little Tex]

48 minutes ago, NBTX11 said:

Does anyone know what happened to the 3 river walk mule palms?  Did any of them survive the Feb 2021 freeze?

I think one was making a recovery but they were all removed and replaced.

[NBTX11]

16 minutes ago, Little Tex said:

I think one was making a recovery but they were all removed and replaced.

Replaced with what?

[Little Tex]

34 minutes ago, NBTX11 said:

Replaced with what?

I forget I think @Collectorpalms knows

[ChicagoPalma]

Do they have jubeas in texas? I've never seen one there, last time I went to Texas it was a road trip with my family, all you can see is just washingtonias.

[Little Tex]

18 minutes ago, ChicagoPalma said:

Do they have jubeas in texas? I've never seen one there, last time I went to Texas it was a road trip with my family, all you can see is just washingtonias.

There's some nice ones in Starr county, and they were some in el paso and for sure San Antonio.

But yeah, south of Houston washingtonia dominate and then south of Corpus you get more variety.

[NBTX11]

In San Antonio Filifera and hybrids are king. Partially due to Feb 21 taking out so many Robusta. Is there a major US city that has more numbers of Filifera than SA?

[MarcusH]

3 hours ago, NBTX11 said:

Does anyone know what happened to the 3 river walk mule palms?  Did any of them survive the Feb 2021 freeze?

No mule palm in downtown San Antonio.  I took many walks downtown since I walked and no mule palm left . 

[jwitt]

2 hours ago, NBTX11 said:

In San Antonio Filifera and hybrids are king. Partially due to Feb 21 taking out so many Robusta. Is there a major US city that has more numbers of Filifera than SA?

Phx, LV, tuc, elp

[NBTX11]

13 minutes ago, jwitt said:

Phx, LV, tuc, elp

San Antonio has more Filifera than El Paso. As far as PHX and LV, Robusta is more king there. Maybe Tucson is a comparison. There are old Filifera all over SA. 

[NBTX11]

Me standing next to your average San Antonio Filifera. Thousands like these. 

[NBTX11]

Trunks usually look like this

[jwitt]

6 minutes ago, NBTX11 said:

Trunks usually look like this

Looks like Sacramento minus the scarring

[NBTX11]

3 minutes ago, jwitt said:

Looks like Sacramento minus the scarring

These palms are about 100 years old. All the old 50-100 year old palms in SA have trunks like that. Scarring, holes, gouges, etc. When I arrived in SA 20 years ago these palms looked exactly the same then. 

Edited March 3 by NBTX11

[jwitt]

50+ year old El Paso filifera minus scarring. 

I'll agree to disagree. Sheer numbers, I think El Paso has more filifera than SA. I'll even throw in Bakersfield.

[NBTX11]

4 hours ago, jwitt said:

50+ year old El Paso filifera minus scarring. 

I'll agree to disagree. Sheer numbers, I think El Paso has more filifera than SA. I'll even throw in Bakersfield.

 

Well, San Antonio is a much bigger city than El Paso.  Granted I haven't spent a lot of time in western cities in a very long time, so I could be wrong.

[Little Tex]

35 minutes ago, NBTX11 said:

Well, San Antonio is a much bigger city than El Paso.  Granted I haven't spent a lot of time in western cities in a very long time, so I could be wrong.

Sheer numbers SA takes the cake, its such a massive city with ancient ones all over the place, El paso might have greater density, but no way it has more in sheer number

[NBTX11]

On 3/2/2023 at 5:09 PM, fr8train said:

Their Phoenix look pretty dead, but hopefully they'll recover:

Here's a house on the same street, this Washingtonia and Phoenix look pretty dead too unfortunately: 

 

Stop worrying about that man.  No seriously.  The Phx are not dead.  

I've been here 20 years and have scouted out SA phoenix for two decades.  

The Dec freeze didn't even come close to killing phx canaries.  The power in the canary is not their ability to hold on to fronds and not defoliate, it's the power to come back from extremely low temperatures AFTER defoliation.  The fronds are relatively tender, but the plant can take much lower temperatures than what would cause them to defoliate.  They all came back from 9 degrees and multiple days of freezing weather.  They will EASILY come back from 16 degrees and much shorter duration freeze.  The Dec freeze was a very weak freeze in comparison to Feb 21.

The only possible exception is palms trucked in as large palms that were recently planted, like maybe the La Canterra ones.  Any truly established ones WILL come back, guaranteed.  

[NBTX11]

Recovering Phoenix Canariensis. New Braunfels TX

[NBTX11]

Nearly undamaged Washingtonia hybrid. New Braunfels TX

[NBTX11]

Filifera leaning hybrid. New Braunfels TX

[DreaminAboutPalms]

Sabal volunteers are everywhere in Dallas and are bulletproof during winters like this past one. Only sabals that have problems up here are ones trucked in from florida. 
 

They will be everywhere here in the coming years. It starts slowly with the commercial plantings and then eventually  seeds are dispersed nearby and these volunteers start popping up, some get cut down due to location but some surivive and drop seeds of their own. It’s like a snowball effect and I’m trying to do what I can to speed up the process because they don’t exactly grow at the speed of robustas and I’d like to see what a north Texas with wild sabals everywhere would look like

Edited March 4 by DreaminAboutPalms

[DreaminAboutPalms]

[fr8train]

On 3/2/2023 at 5:38 PM, jwitt said:

I like what's down the street from those mexicana's in El Paso. 

Zoomed in

Lol

12 hours ago, NBTX11 said:

Stop worrying about that man.  No seriously.  The Phx are not dead.  

I've been here 20 years and have scouted out SA phoenix for two decades.  

The Dec freeze didn't even come close to killing phx canaries.  The power in the canary is not their ability to hold on to fronds and not defoliate, it's the power to come back from extremely low temperatures AFTER defoliation.  The fronds are relatively tender, but the plant can take much lower temperatures than what would cause them to defoliate.  They all came back from 9 degrees and multiple days of freezing weather.  They will EASILY come back from 16 degrees and much shorter duration freeze.  The Dec freeze was a very weak freeze in comparison to Feb 21.

The only possible exception is palms trucked in as large palms that were recently planted, like maybe the La Canterra ones.  Any truly established ones WILL come back, guaranteed.  

That's good to know, though I think New Braunfels is a bit milder than here?

I'm trying to collect photos now so I can post some after shots later in the year, when things grow back a bit. 

I recently drove out to Laredo, and once you hit the southwest side of the city, the palms start looking way better. I saw some relatively unburned Phoenix palms not that far southwest of San Antonio, and of course the closer I got to Laredo, the better everything looked. It seems like where I am is one of the chilliest spots unfortunately.

 

I've also heard that butia don't grow that well out here because of the soil? Is this true? I mentioned it to someone growing palms around Houston and they were surprised. 

Edited March 4 by fr8train

[amh]

21 minutes ago, fr8train said:

Lol

That's good to know, though I think New Braunfels is a bit milder than here?

I'm trying to collect photos now so I can post some after shots later in the year, when things grow back a bit. 

I recently drove out to Laredo, and once you hit the southwest side of the city, the palms start looking way better. I saw some relatively unburned Phoenix palms not that far southwest of San Antonio, and of course the closer I got to Laredo, the better everything looked. It seems like where I am is one of the chilliest spots unfortunately.

 

I've also heard that butia don't grow that well out here because of the soil? Is this true? I mentioned it to someone growing palms around Houston and they were surprised. 

The Fair Oaks Ranch area would have been 11F to 13F back in December.

From what I have read about the butia situation, every yard or water source can have differing results, similar to trachycarpus.

[Xenon]

23 minutes ago, fr8train said:

Lol

That's good to know, though I think New Braunfels is a bit milder than here?

I'm trying to collect photos now so I can post some after shots later in the year, when things grow back a bit. 

I recently drove out to Laredo, and once you hit the southwest side of the city, the palms start looking way better. I saw some relatively unburned Phoenix palms not that far southwest of San Antonio, and of course the closer I got to Laredo, the better everything looked. It seems like where I am is one of the chilliest spots unfortunately.

 

I've also heard that butia don't grow that well out here because of the soil? Is this true? I mentioned it to someone growing palms around Houston and they were surprised. 

Laredo has a lot of queen palms (especially residential areas), way more than Corpus Christi after 2021. Go further south on US-83 and you'll encounter towering royals in Mission/McAllen seemingly out of nowhere after miles and miles of millions of Washingtonia. 

Don't know about out west, but Butia grows fine in Houston. There are some in "older" neighborhoods that must be 50 years old or more. 

[Fusca]

1 hour ago, Xenon said:

Don't know about out west, but Butia grows fine in Houston. There are some in "older" neighborhoods that must be 50 years old or more. 

Butia don't seem to like alkaline soil.  At one time I had 4 good sized Butia in San Antonio - 2 in my backyard and 2 in the front where the soil pH was higher.  Both of the ones in front started pushing yellow new growth in spite of regular fertilizing with Palmgain.  I dug up one and gave it to a neighbor who kept it in a container and it greened back up.  I transplanted one of the ones in the back yard when I moved here where my soil pH is 7.9 and it didn't survive.  First time I ever failed to successfully move one and I've moved a dozen or so.  I do think that there's some variation in odorata with regard to pH since I have one here that is doing great.  Or maybe it's a different species of Butia.

[Xenon]

8 minutes ago, Fusca said:

Butia don't seem to like alkaline soil.  At one time I had 4 good sized Butia in San Antonio - 2 in my backyard and 2 in the front where the soil pH was higher.  Both of the ones in front started pushing yellow new growth in spite of regular fertilizing with Palmgain.  I dug up one and gave it to a neighbor who kept it in a container and it greened back up.  I transplanted one of the ones in the back yard when I moved here where my soil pH is 7.9 and it didn't survive.  First time I ever failed to successfully move one and I've moved a dozen or so.  I do think that there's some variation in odorata with regard to pH since I have one here that is doing great.  Or maybe it's a different species of Butia.

pH around here is generally around 8. Perhaps it's the salts in the irrigation water? Butia generally gets enough water here from rainfall alone. 

[fr8train]

1 hour ago, Xenon said:

Laredo has a lot of queen palms (especially residential areas), way more than Corpus Christi after 2021. Go further south on US-83 and you'll encounter towering royals in Mission/McAllen seemingly out of nowhere after miles and miles of millions of Washingtonia. 

Don't know about out west, but Butia grows fine in Houston. There are some in "older" neighborhoods that must be 50 years old or more. 

I wish I had taken photos, but I didn't have much time, maybe the next time I go. I gotta get out to McAllen and that area some time too, thanks for letting me know. 

7 minutes ago, Fusca said:

Butia don't seem to like alkaline soil.  At one time I had 4 good sized Butia in San Antonio - 2 in my backyard and 2 in the front where the soil pH was higher.  Both of the ones in front started pushing yellow new growth in spite of regular fertilizing with Palmgain.  I dug up one and gave it to a neighbor who kept it in a container and it greened back up.  I transplanted one of the ones in the back yard when I moved here where my soil pH is 7.9 and it didn't survive.  First time I ever failed to successfully move one and I've moved a dozen or so.  I do think that there's some variation in odorata with regard to pH since I have one here that is doing great.  Or maybe it's a different species of Butia.

I see. Yeah I think I remember someone on here writing something like that, that they had large Butia, and then they went into decline and eventually died due to the soil. I've seen a few healthy Butia around the city, but the one at a restaurant near here died I believe, following the December freeze. I don't see it there anymore, I think they removed it. 

I wonder what form can survive here? 

[NBTX11]

2 hours ago, fr8train said:

Lol

That's good to know, though I think New Braunfels is a bit milder than here?

I'm trying to collect photos now so I can post some after shots later in the year, when things grow back a bit. 

I recently drove out to Laredo, and once you hit the southwest side of the city, the palms start looking way better. I saw some relatively unburned Phoenix palms not that far southwest of San Antonio, and of course the closer I got to Laredo, the better everything looked. It seems like where I am is one of the chilliest spots unfortunately.

 

I've also heard that butia don't grow that well out here because of the soil? Is this true? I mentioned it to someone growing palms around Houston and they were surprised. 

The south side of SA always looks better from freezes.  New Braunfels is warmer than NW Bexar.  NB is similar to Schertz/Cibolo and probably the airport area of N. San Antonio.  The city limits of NB and Schertz run right into each other.  People think of Comal County as north of Bexar, but actually NB is further south than far north Bexar county, and also at a lower elevation.

In town SA canaries should be fine, as well as up the immediate I 35 corridor past Austin.  If you're in the hill country of Kendall, Far NW Bexar, or Comal County, you might have slightly more to worry about.  But I still think NW Bexar Canaries will be fine.  They are usually pretty good down to around 10 degrees or lower depending on length of freeze.  They've been known to take down to zero F, although that could be expected to kill some/most.

Canaries look terrible though below 20 degrees.  The fronds burn to a crisp from teens F.

 

Edited March 4 by NBTX11

[NBTX11]

I’ve tried Butias many times. Every last one of them died. I’ve found they grow terribly in our soil. 

[Little Tex]

3 hours ago, Xenon said:

Laredo has a lot of queen palms (especially residential areas), way more than Corpus Christi after 2021. Go further south on US-83 and you'll encounter towering royals in Mission/McAllen seemingly out of nowhere after miles and miles of millions of Washingtonia. 

Don't know about out west, but Butia grows fine in Houston. There are some in "older" neighborhoods that must be 50 years old or more. 

Some nice royals in Rio Grande City too

[NBTX11]

A Filifera I grew from seed. 

[SeanK]

On 3/3/2023 at 12:38 PM, ChicagoPalma said:

Do they have jubeas in texas? I've never seen one there, last time I went to Texas it was a road trip with my family, all you can see is just washingtonias.

Jubaea is an expensive investment and grows way to slow to provide required ROI in landscapes.

[DreaminAboutPalms]

Just to prove how well CIDP can recover from being defoliated over and over again, here is a pre Palmagaeddon pic in Jan 2021 of a Plano CIDP that actually survived. 
 

More than likely it was defoliated 5 or 6 times in the previous decade, and still had a full crown again by early 2021. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Fusca]

On 3/4/2023 at 3:11 PM, Xenon said:

pH around here is generally around 8. Perhaps it's the salts in the irrigation water? Butia generally gets enough water here from rainfall alone. 

That might contribute in some cases but doesn't seem to apply in my experiences.  I used the same  water in SA for all my palms (city water) and only the ones in front had any issues.  All in mostly full sun and received basically the same amount of water.  I have city water here also and the largest Butia that is doing great doesn't get watered besides rain although it is on the edge of my septic field and receives some extra moisture from that.  I remember reading posts from other folks in SA saying that Butia typically don't do well but I had a couple that did.

Edited March 6 by Fusca