Largest Phoenix Canariensis North of London

[Daz82]

New Brighton, Wirral 

[Foxpalms]

Was there a few weeks ago but didn't see any CIDPs along the sea front. Lots of cordylines, chamaerops humilis and Trachycarpus there though.

[Foxpalms]

This one is at 55N, looks like it's been there since 2017.

[fr8train]

It's crazy they can make it England, but not in San Antonio. Not to get too off topic, but I was just in London and I saw a few beautiful CIDP, very lush, green and healthy. The ones here are all burnt to a crisp. 

[Foxpalms]

1 hour ago, fr8train said:

It's crazy they can make it England, but not in San Antonio. Not to get too off topic, but I was just in London and I saw a few beautiful CIDP, very lush, green and healthy. The ones here are all burnt to a crisp. 

Some are damaged in the 9a parts of London (the outskirts), but in central London 9b and 10a they are undamaged. Even driving through the 9a parts the CIDPS don't have that much damage.

Edited February 27 by Foxpalms

[UK_Palms]

The one posted isn’t the largest one north of London. There are bigger and better looking specimens on the east coast of central England around Clacton-son-Sea at 52N. However this is one of the furthest north ‘big’ specimens at 53N in Liverpool, which is the same latitude as Edmonton, Canada. It is in desperate need of a trim however, which would expose the 7-8 foot trunk.

Edited February 27 by UK_Palms

[Daz82]

1 hour ago, UK_Palms said:

The one posted isn’t the largest one north of London. There are bigger and better looking specimens on the east coast of central England around Clacton-son-Sea at 52N. However this is one of the furthest north ‘big’ specimens at 53N in Liverpool, which is the same latitude as Edmonton, Canada. It is in desperate need of a trim however, which would expose the 7-8 foot trunk.

Any pictures of the ones in Clacton on sea?

[UK_Palms]

1 hour ago, Daz82 said:

Any pictures of the ones in Clacton on sea?

Plenty from street view but the biggest specimens haven’t updated in like 4 years and 9 years respectively. They are much bigger than shown in the street view images. There are at least 3 that are bigger than that Liverpool/Wirral specimen.

Here is an image from a property website but it is a few years old now. It’s located on Chapman road.

Edited February 27 by UK_Palms

[Little Tex]

10 hours ago, fr8train said:

It's crazy they can make it England, but not in San Antonio. Not to get too off topic, but I was just in London and I saw a few beautiful CIDP, very lush, green and healthy. The ones here are all burnt to a crisp. 

They will come back, besides they grow better in texas bc of the heat, they might get defoliated every decade or so, or like this weird string of winters twice in three, but I prefer the height and trunk the TX ones put out, The CIDP look burnt like they did in 2021 even is some parts of Houston, but they'll be all right.

[Zeni]

Today I spotted an elementary school which planted about 6 small CIDPs (in The Hague) in their community front garden. Looked up on Google and saw they were planted as cheap 10 euro Canaries juveniles in mid-2021. So they survived 2 winters without protection. I wanted to take pics, but didn't feel like being viewed as a creep who takes pics of an elementary school, lol, so didn't.

They are still tiny, but I think I will start checking up on this experimental location.

Would be cool if they survive for a decade and then potentially become bulletproof. 🙏

[Zeni]

1 hour ago, Little Tex said:

They will come back, besides they grow better in texas bc of the heat, they might get defoliated every decade or so, or like this weird string of winters twice in three, but I prefer the height and trunk the TX ones put out, The CIDP look burnt like they did in 2021 even is some parts of Houston, but they'll be all right.

Planting of UK CIDPs only really started since the early 2000s. They are slower due the colder weather, but eventually will take on height.

[Las Palmas Norte]

11 hours ago, fr8train said:

It's crazy they can make it England, but not in San Antonio. Not to get too off topic, but I was just in London and I saw a few beautiful CIDP, very lush, green and healthy. The ones here are all burnt to a crisp. 

Judging by the English palms shown in pics, they are on track to outpace much of the Mediterranean region. There's a palm forum over there where some guys are planting 10b palms, with minimal risk and light protection.

[Daz82]

5 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

Plenty from street view but the biggest specimens haven’t updated in like 4 years and 9 years respectively. They are much bigger than shown in the street view images. There are at least 3 that are bigger than that Liverpool/Wirral specimen.

Here is an image from a property website but it is a few years old now. It’s located on Chapman road.

Wow, very impressive specimen indeed!!

[Daz82]

Just now, Daz82 said:

Wow, very impressive specimen indeed!!

Would be interesting to see what size it and others have grown to

[Foxpalms]

51 minutes ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

Judging by the English palms shown in pics, they are on track to outpace much of the Mediterranean region. There's a palm forum over there where some guys are planting 10b palms, with minimal risk and light protection.

What type of 10b palms? Only one area of the UK is zone 10b.

[NBTX11]

13 hours ago, fr8train said:

It's crazy they can make it England, but not in San Antonio. Not to get too off topic, but I was just in London and I saw a few beautiful CIDP, very lush, green and healthy. The ones here are all burnt to a crisp. 

They’ve survived longer in San Antonio than in London. There are larger canaries in San Antonio than any I’ve ever seen posted in London. 
 

just because they burned in 2021 and 2022 does not mean they are not long lived in San Antonio. 

[Foxpalms]

1 hour ago, NBTX11 said:

They’ve survived longer in San Antonio than in London. There are larger canaries in San Antonio than any I’ve ever seen posted in London. 
 

just because they burned in 2021 and 2022 does not mean they are not long lived in San Antonio. 

Pretty sure that's because Phoenix canariensis weren't being planted untill recently here. Has nothing to do with the fact they couldn't survive. San Antonio on average is warmer so they will also grow faster there.

[fr8train]

4 hours ago, Little Tex said:

They will come back, besides they grow better in texas bc of the heat, they might get defoliated every decade or so, or like this weird string of winters twice in three, but I prefer the height and trunk the TX ones put out, The CIDP look burnt like they did in 2021 even is some parts of Houston, but they'll be all right.

 

2 hours ago, NBTX11 said:

They’ve survived longer in San Antonio than in London. There are larger canaries in San Antonio than any I’ve ever seen posted in London. 
 

just because they burned in 2021 and 2022 does not mean they are not long lived in San Antonio. 

The ones at The Rim in San Antonio look very dead, but maybe they'll come back. They looked really rough before the December freeze, but alive, now they look totally dead. All the other ones I've seen around town look dead too. I'll try to get a picture today, I should be down there. 

[UK_Palms]

38 minutes ago, NBTX11 said:

They’ve survived longer in San Antonio than in London. There are larger canaries in San Antonio than any I’ve ever seen posted in London. 
 

just because they burned in 2021 and 2022 does not mean they are not long lived in San Antonio. 

Are there any CIDP's that predate the late 80's...? Not counting big plantings that have been shipped in from SoCal in the past decade. The big Fulham one in London is about 40 feet in height now and was planted incredibly small sometime around 1986 - 1988.

[Hortulanus]

I'm not so sure about hot temperatures. CIDPs don't need too much heat. Just a long and warm growing season. Even in their natural habitat of the Canary Islands they often grow in cool wet areas. The only difference is that they get this year round. Seeing so many CIDPs in North West Europe now made me realise how much better many of them look compared to some planted in the Mediterranean for example. They can handle a lot of drought but they definitely look better with lots of water. Many also say that they are slow in general but I don't think so. Only in pots but once planted out they get huge pretty fast. I think it's a misconception because they first grow a lot in witdh not height.

[fr8train]

5 hours ago, fr8train said:

 

The ones at The Rim in San Antonio look very dead, but maybe they'll come back. They looked really rough before the December freeze, but alive, now they look totally dead. All the other ones I've seen around town look dead too. I'll try to get a picture today, I should be down there. 

Here are the ones at The Rim in San Antonio:

 

[UK_Palms]

@fr8train They survived the Feb 2021 Texas freeze and started coming back a bit, however I suspect the freeze this winter has finished them off now. CIDP don't handle regular defoliations well. They ideally need a good 4-5 years apart at least to recover before the next major event. It will be interesting to see if any of these ones hang in there.

 

These nearby Washingtonia don't look too good either. Yikes. This street view is recent from this month.

 

[Foxpalms]

3 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

Are there any CIDP's that predate the late 80's...? Not counting big plantings that have been shipped in from SoCal in the past decade. The big Fulham one in London is about 40 feet in height now and was planted incredibly small sometime around 1986 - 1988.

I personally also have not heard of stories of CIDPs being planted before the one in Fulham in London. There probably wont be loads of huge CIDPs until at least 2040 because they are not particularly fast growing palms.  Also we cant purchase large CIDPS either maybe 15ft at the largest and those are rarely sold. @HortulanusMost of the natural populations of phoenix canariensis on the canary islands are around 1000-3000ft feet above sea from what I saw.  This is probably because especially in the south and on the drier canary islands (bwh climates), the soil at sea level is very dry and rocky and combined with the higher summer temperatures they always look bad unless they are irrigated ones. I am going there again in a few weeks so I will try to take photos of ones in the bwh climates to show the difference between them and ones at higher elevations. Hopefully I can also post more coconuts found a lot more on google maps.

Edited February 28 by Foxpalms

[fr8train]

1 minute ago, UK_Palms said:

These nearby Washingtonia don't look too good either. Yikes. This street view is recent from this month.

Fortunately most of them are starting to push out a little green now, but they did look dead for a while. I don't see any green on the CIDP though. It's a shame so many people seem to be unaware about what can actually make it down here. They could have planted filifera instead of robusta, and Sabals instead of the CIDP. I don't know why they're not more readily available for sale either. 

[Hortulanus]

37 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

I personally also have not heard of stories of CIDPs being planted before the one in Fulham in London. There probably wont be loads of huge CIDPs until at least 2040 because they are not particularly fast growing palms.  Also we cant purchase large CIDPS either maybe 15ft at the largest and those are rarely sold. @HortulanusMost of the natural populations of phoenix canariensis on the canary islands are around 1000-3000ft feet above sea from what I saw.  This is probably because especially in the south and on the drier canary islands (bwh climates), the soil at sea level is very dry and rocky and combined with the higher summer temperatures they always look bad unless they are irrigated ones. I am going there again in a few weeks so I will try to take photos of ones in the bwh climates to show the difference between them and ones at higher elevations. Hopefully I can also post more coconuts found a lot more on google maps.

There was an online palm shop here that used to sell huge palm trees on a regular. Huge Jubaeas even. They used to be such a good place to get exotic plants in general. Very cheap but high quality plants. They changed their marketing towards a more mainstream audience. Prices went up, quality went down and the service is rubbish. They still sell some big and rare palms but not as they used to. They had big trunking CIDPs as well. Now you only can find some nurseries on Ebay that sell big CIDPs imported from Spain. Quality doesn't look too good though and those are usually general nurseries no experts for palms which isn't good if you want to buy a palm that has been cared for.

[DreaminAboutPalms]

They can survive defoliation just fine. There were a decent amount in Dallas that had healthy full crowns up until February 2021 that had been defoliated 6 times in the previous decade 

[Xenon]

1 hour ago, UK_Palms said:

@fr8train They survived the Feb 2021 Texas freeze and started coming back a bit, however I suspect the freeze this winter has finished them off now. CIDP don't handle regular defoliations well. They ideally need a good 4-5 years apart at least to recover before the next major event. It will be interesting to see if any of these ones hang in there.

Those CIDP are fine. The damage in that picture is from February 2022 when it got into the low 20s and burned the post-2021 growth. There are many pre-89 CIDP in San Antonio and the surrounding area. 

Now carry on with the England thread 🙂

[fr8train]

2 hours ago, Xenon said:

Those CIDP are fine. The damage in that picture is from February 2022 when it got into the low 20s and burned the post-2021 growth. There are many pre-89 CIDP in San Antonio and the surrounding area. 

Now carry on with the England thread 🙂

The CIDP at the rim are fine? Where are many pre-89 CIDP outside of the riverwalk? 

I'm rooting for all of these palms to make it, but they're pretty beat up at best. 

Edited February 28 by fr8train

[MarcusH]

As a San Antonio resident I can confirm CIDP do quite well here.  You don't see them that much  because they do get massive and not everyone feels comfortable planting one in their yard  like not everyone here likes palms.  Most people I talk to don't really care for them also our climate is hot for the most of the time people don't really work in the yard much they like their yards plane Jane. The CIDP I see here are planted mainly on private property (upper class mostly) where they get the right care with one exception a guy in our neighborhood (not upper class) has a large CIDP in his front yard (40 to 50 years old) who won't prune his palm. Apparently this is the 3rd time this palm completely defoliated this decade 21 and twice in 22. From my observation it comes back strong as always. Those at the RIM are okay to be honest.  They're kind of struggling because they don't get the right care also La Cantera is more in the Hill Country outside of Loop 1604 the temperatures are slightly colder than inside 1604.  From what I've heard since I only live here close to 1.5 years that those cold fronts are usually rare but for some reason the 2020s are unusual cold but it is what it is nothing we can do about it nobody,  not even London is immune to polar vortexes where it gets below freezing point.  I see a lot of apartment complexes and business switched to Sabal Palmetto / Sabal Mexicana here in and around SA.  Long story short CIDP do well here and are all over SA in small numbers . 

[fr8train]

It's good to know they'll make it. I'm new here too and I was a bit disappointed by all the burning I've been seeing on everything other than trachycarpus and sabals.

Sorry to derail the thread a bit, I just happened to come back from a trip to London, and I couldn't help but think about how healthy the palms I saw out there looked compared to here.

[NBTX11]

There are many many mature Canary island date palms in San Antonio that pre date 1980 and some that pre date 1960 or 1950. Have you actually driven through older neighborhoods near downtown or the south side?  
 There are dates older than 60 years old in New Braunfels. I’m not kidding. Burning in a freeze does not equal death. Virtually all canaries came back from the Feb 21 freeze in NB. including really old ones. 
I’m not making this into a contest but there are larger and older canaries in San Antonio than any I’ve ever seen posted in London. Honestly it’s not close 

Edited February 28 by NBTX11

[NBTX11]

12 hours ago, fr8train said:

The CIDP at the rim are fine? Where are many pre-89 CIDP outside of the riverwalk? 

I'm rooting for all of these palms to make it, but they're pretty beat up at best. 

Start driving through old neighborhoods inside loop 410 and you will find ancient canaries. Some 70 year old palms or more. 

[NBTX11]

15 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

@fr8train They survived the Feb 2021 Texas freeze and started coming back a bit, however I suspect the freeze this winter has finished them off now. CIDP don't handle regular defoliations well. They ideally need a good 4-5 years apart at least to recover before the next major event. It will be interesting to see if any of these ones hang in there.

 

These nearby Washingtonia don't look too good either. Yikes. This street view is recent from this month.

 

All the local canaries came back more than a litter bit. Most had almost completely recovered. I can’t speak for these particular palms but over 99 percent of the San Antonio canaries will recover from the Dec 22 freeze. Every single one I’ve spotted in New Braunfels is currently pushing green. Every one. The Dec freeze was actually a very tepid freeze compared to Feb 21. Short lived and not severe. One night at 16 and one at 19. No days below freezing. Rapid warmup afterwards. Put it this way. Queen palms survived and are recovering nicely. Those Washingtonias look like trash because they’re recently planted and weren’t established. Every Washingtonia that is established is either recovering or in the case of Filifera wasn’t damaged much. Photos can be deceptive. 

Edited February 28 by NBTX11

[MarcusH]

It's not a contest just pure facts coming from James and he's been living here for much longer than me.  The CIDP I see here look healthy to me no disease invasions YET. SA is a large city you won't notice them as all the other Washies but they're in a lot of old established neighborhoods like Alamo Heights/Olmos Park etc Southside but not in large numbers of course.  You really have to look for them .  Even we get punched by some polar vortexes this decade I'm very surprised how many palms in San Antonio and other cities in TX recover each time.  Sometimes a full recovery process takes up to 2 years for a palm to grow its full crown back . Why do palms do so well here is because we're on parallel 29° that's where the UV-A comes into play again. We have the tools (latitude,  Gulf of Mexico,  subtropical climate) for a speedy recovery.  I'm gonna take a quick walk in the neighborhood and show you guys the CIDP I'm not just talking. 

[MarcusH]

21 minutes ago, MarcusH said:

It's not a contest just pure facts coming from James and he's been living here for much longer than me.  The CIDP I see here look healthy to me no disease invasions YET. SA is a large city you won't notice them as all the other Washies but they're in a lot of old established neighborhoods like Alamo Heights/Olmos Park etc Southside but not in large numbers of course.  You really have to look for them .  Even we get punched by some polar vortexes this decade I'm very surprised how many palms in San Antonio and other cities in TX recover each time.  Sometimes a full recovery process takes up to 2 years for a palm to grow its full crown back . Why do palms do so well here is because we're on parallel 29° that's where the UV-A comes into play again. We have the tools (latitude,  Gulf of Mexico,  subtropical climate) for a speedy recovery.  I'm gonna take a quick walk in the neighborhood and show you guys the CIDP I'm not just talking. 

If he would prune his palm, fertilize , water it and keep the grass from the trunk he would have at least twice the amount of green fronds already but from experience he'll have a decent crown back by summer 

[NBTX11]

Marcus thank you. That palm is probably 40-50 feet tall with a full crown. I’ve seen many in San Antonio like this. There was a date palm near the River center that was much taller than this. Palms like these are fairly common in older neighborhoods. 

[MarcusH]

You're welcome James and this is just one example out of thousands others .  None native palms need care otherwise they can get taken out by a disease which are very common among CIDPs but with the very few palms in England I wouldn't be worried about that yet.  I had to smile when I've read CIDPs don't do well over here in SA.  You wanted proof I delivered.  

[Xenon]

3 minutes ago, MarcusH said:

You're welcome James and this is just one example out of thousands others .  None native palms need care otherwise they can get taken out by a disease which are very common among CIDPs but with the very few palms in England I wouldn't be worried about that yet.  I had to smile when I've read CIDPs don't do well over here in SA.  You wanted proof I delivered.  

Ironically I think the lack of care/pruning is helping to keep it alive. Lethal bronzing spreads by infected tools and maybe airborne through open wounds too. Many of the large surviving CIDP in Houston are growing in random abandoned places while the manicured ones died sometime in the past 10-20 years. CIDP doesn't require any supplemental water or fertilizer here. 

[MarcusH]

16 minutes ago, Xenon said:

Ironically I think the lack of care/pruning is helping to keep it alive. Lethal bronzing spreads by infected tools and maybe airborne through open wounds too. Many of the large surviving CIDP in Houston are growing in random abandoned places while the manicured ones died sometime in the past 10-20 years. CIDP doesn't require any supplemental water or fertilizer 

I agree with you and not lol. If you don't sanitize your pruning shears you're asking for trouble big times.  Rule number one sanitize your tools.  Second rule don't cut green fronds unless it's necessary . All these palm trimmer don't care about the tree they care about their pockets so they use their pruning tools for every palm all day long without sanitizing.  I've caught palm trimmers off guard on YT doing this .  If I would have to hire someone I would take that day off and watch every step they take. Even the CIDP doesn't require fertilizer or regular water but don't you think that would speed up the growth rate if you would?  

[UK_Palms]

I have spotted another CIDP hiding in London that hasn't been posted on here before. I don't know how old this photo is, but it came from a property listing site and must be several years old now at least. Given the rapid growth rate of CIDP's in the capital, it will probably have 10-15 foot of trunk by now, which would be much more visible if the lower fronds were cut off and tidied up. Hopefully we can get a better update on it soon, since you cannot see it on street view at all really as it is down a side alley and hasn't updated in like 15 years.

 

You can really see the scale of the crown when looking at it on the Google maps overhead aerial. It's almost as big as the houses in terms of width/diameter. Much bigger and more prominent than you would expect to see in warmer, sunnier places like southern Europe or SoCal. I have a theory that the crowns may be growing thicker and more dense/voluminous over here to compensate for the lower levels of sunshine. More fronds/foliage means more sunlight being captured for photosynthesis. I have seen quite a few over here with insanely dense/voluminous crowns like this. You can really see the difference when viewing them from above on the overhead aerials. 

\\

 

The London CIDP's must have some of the thickest, densest crowns you can get. It could be due to a lack of trimming and maintenance, giving them a more voluminous look, however I suspect it may have something to do with the lower levels of sunshine duration and intensity. The crowns just just look more compact and more dense than you would typically expect for a CIDP. It must be a climatic/geographical factor causing it.

 

Here is another example in Hastings (street view is over 2 years old now)...

 

 

Here is one on the Isle of Wight as well showing a very dense crown. The photo is from 2021 (same as the image above), so it will be even bigger now.

Edited March 1 by UK_Palms