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Best palms to grow here in Chicago


ChicagoPalma

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2 hours ago, Little Tex said:

My advice is if anything, grow the mexican fan palm in a pot, and try a California fan Pam, much much hardier

Can they survive wet winters, and a frozen ground?

Edited by ChicagoPalma
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31 minutes ago, ChicagoPalma said:

Can they survive wet winters, and a frozen ground?

Nope.

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On 3/1/2023 at 3:59 PM, UK_Palms said:

 So how the hell are the big 30+ footers in say London going to get knocked out now?

London - Wikipedia

According to Wikipedia, the record low for Heathrow is 0F (-17C), and the record low for Greenwich Park is 9F or -12C.

If it happened once, it can and will happen again.  9F will kill many of your Washingtonia (due to the lack of warmth afterwards), and 0F will kill all of your Canary Dates.

Hopefully that will not happen for 100 years, but it will happen again.

 

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As far as Chicago, there was a guy on another cold hardy palm that kept a Trachy alive in Milwaukee a number of years by building an enclosure every year.  It looked really good from what I remember.  This was several years ago.  

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9 minutes ago, NBTX11 said:

London - Wikipedia

According to Wikipedia, the record low for Heathrow is 0F (-17C), and the record low for Greenwich Park is 9F or -12C.

If it happened once, it can and will happen again.  9F will kill many of your Washingtonia (due to the lack of warmth afterwards), and 0F will kill all of your Canary Dates.

Hopefully that will not happen for 100 years, but it will happen again.

 

Usually I'm sceptical about the Wikipedia data since usually some of it is wrong however even if that Is true central London is significantly warmer that both those locations so they would likely survive here. The urban heat island is also more dense and larger than it was in the 1960s. The temperature at Kew in was -9.7c in the 1962/1963 winter and central London during bad freezes can be 6 to 7c warmer for example this winter. The temperatures over Greenland are also not as cold as they used to be so whilst very cold temperatures could be possible it's unlikely as cold as they used to be.

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9 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

Usually I'm sceptical about the Wikipedia data since usually some of it is wrong however even if that Is true central London is significantly warmer that both those locations so they would likely survive here. The urban heat island is also more dense and larger than it was in the 1960s. The temperature at Kew in was -9.7c in the 1962/1963 winter and central London during bad freezes can be 6 to 7c warmer for example this winter. The temperatures over Greenland are also not as cold as they used to be so whilst very cold temperatures could be possible it's unlikely as cold as they used to be.

You could be right.  I don't know London microclimates, so maybe there are warmer areas.  In San Antonio, for example, the downtown riverwalk area is a half zone warmer than other areas.

That said, what we found out in in Feb 21, in a 50 or 100 year freeze, microclimates don't help you as much.  It's cold everywhere.    

 

Edited by NBTX11
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8 minutes ago, NBTX11 said:

You could be right.  I don't know London microclimates, so maybe there are warmer areas.  In San Antonio, for example, the downtown riverwalk area is a half zone warmer than other areas.

That said, what we found out in in Feb 21, in a 50 or 100 year freeze, microclimates don't help you as much.  It's cold everywhere.    

 

Central London is half a zone to 1 zone higher than Kew for example. Cloud and snow here also keeps the temperature above freezing.

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21 minutes ago, NBTX11 said:

You could be right.  I don't know London microclimates, so maybe there are warmer areas.  In San Antonio, for example, the downtown riverwalk area is a half zone warmer than other areas.

That said, what we found out in in Feb 21, in a 50 or 100 year freeze, microclimates don't help you as much.  It's cold everywhere.    

 

Microclimates and urban heat islands make a huge difference. Even my parents have never seen the temperature record lows that have been measured at the airport. Another thing is that for us in Europe temperatures are actually warming up quickly. We also had a bad cold blast in Feburary 2021 but the direction the cold air was coming from, the duration of the happening and the overall weather system constellation would have caused way way colder temperatures a decade and especially several decades ago. Even this winter we had some cold spells with one cold blast in December 2022. Every time the temperatures were still not as bad as they would have been a couple of decades ago. The air that is cold in the far North and Eastern Europe into Russia is not as cold anymore. Eastern Europe has also the biggest warm up in mean temperatures. This winter again was extremely warm almost all winter in Moscow for example. The western winds bringing our low pressure rainy weather from the Atlantic into Western Europe in winter are reaching extremely far north nowadays. It looks like all that warm air is warming up the Arctic even faster. I truely believe that it's possible that in a few decades some severe temperatures are not possible anymore. Until the next climate cooling of course... I would also argue that already now the record lows (since record keeping) that have occured here in many places are not possible anymore now. Just my observation and opinion. I'm not saying that it's a fact.

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31 minutes ago, NBTX11 said:

London - Wikipedia

According to Wikipedia, the record low for Heathrow is 0F (-17C), and the record low for Greenwich Park is 9F or -12C.

If it happened once, it can and will happen again.  9F will kill many of your Washingtonia (due to the lack of warmth afterwards), and 0F will kill all of your Canary Dates.

Hopefully that will not happen for 100 years, but it will happen again.

 

 

The record low at Heathrow is -13C / 8F going by the Met Office, not -17C / 0F. There aren't even any CIDP or Washingtonia out near Heathrow anyway though as that is the outer western suburbs and further inland. It's one of the coldest parts of the city in winter, but consequently also one of the warmest parts in summer too.

The UHI around Heathrow and west London has increased significantly though since any record cold back in 1948 or 1963. Yet still there aren't really any CIDP or Washingtonia out there. I only know of one Robusta/hybrid really. It's mostly Trachycarpus and Chamaerops in those further inland regions. They should plant some Sabals out that way.

305202333_10159070539137201_5777391627459892493_n.thumb.jpg.edf4a5e7a8a83b062a5f02e13823a965.jpg

 

Also the Met station at Greenwich Park is right out in the open and over 1000 yards away from any buildings or built up areas. It is always going to run colder there, especially on clear, still winter nights. The record low at Kew Gardens is also -12C / 9F but that station is also right out in the open in a huge green space, similar to Greenwich Park. I believe the record low for the Battersea station in central London by the Thames is only -7C / 19F. Of course there are lots of palms in those central, built up regions especially.

So if we are talking about a record breaking freeze, or a 1 in 100 year event, we're still only looking at 15-20F lows in the mildest parts of central and eastern London at street level, even if Heathrow was to go below -13C / 8F for the first time ever. The likelihood of that happening is ridiculously low due to the bigger, more expansive UHI in that area nowadays. If it did happen, it isn't going to be cold enough to kill Filibusta hybrids still, let alone Filifera's. The big Filifera out at Canvey Island had no damage from around -10C / 14F in Feb 2018. 

These CIDP in a colder part of north London would have took about -10C / 14F in December 2010 and 1-2 weeks below freezing when they were tiny. That event was during early winter as well, with the rest of winter to play out still and months before any real warmup. They likely defoliated completely while very small, but still came back fine.

2005676790_Screenshot2023-03-05at03_13_41.thumb.png.b3819ea4714544f0a7a89dff62114d47.png

401289393_Screenshot2023-03-05at03_12_08.thumb.png.39be3cd33aba4f7551e837d3a7a21f03.png

Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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Ima do a robusta because of the wet winters. For filifera, If I would be able to have like a root ball with some heating wire or something to heat the roots, that might be good, but the wetness of the winter will still affect the palm.

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Does anyone know where it might be a good place to buy a windmill and a Mexican fan palm possibly near me or can ship a large tree of those kinds? Would be nice, as spring is already here in Chicago, not fully but it started with some daffodils blooming.  

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1 hour ago, UK_Palms said:

 

The record low at Heathrow is -13C / 8F going by the Met Office, not -17C / 0F. There aren't even any CIDP or Washingtonia out near Heathrow anyway though as that is the outer western suburbs and further inland. It's one of the coldest parts of the city in winter, but consequently also one of the warmest parts in summer too.

The UHI around Heathrow and west London has increased significantly though since any record cold back in 1948 or 1963. Yet still there aren't really any CIDP or Washingtonia out there. I only know of one Robusta/hybrid really. It's mostly Trachycarpus and Chamaerops in those further inland regions. They should plant some Sabals out that way.

305202333_10159070539137201_5777391627459892493_n.thumb.jpg.edf4a5e7a8a83b062a5f02e13823a965.jpg

 

Also the Met station at Greenwich Park is right out in the open and over 1000 yards away from any buildings or built up areas. It is always going to run colder there, especially on clear, still winter nights. The record low at Kew Gardens is also -12C / 9F but that station is also right out in the open in a huge green space, similar to Greenwich Park. I believe the record low for the Battersea station in central London by the Thames is only -7C / 19F. Of course there are lots of palms in those central, built up regions especially.

So if we are talking about a record breaking freeze, or a 1 in 100 year event, we're still only looking at 15-20F lows in the mildest parts of central and eastern London at street level, even if Heathrow was to go below -13C / 8F for the first time ever. The likelihood of that happening is ridiculously low due to the bigger, more expansive UHI in that area nowadays. If it did happen, it isn't going to be cold enough to kill Filibusta hybrids still, let alone Filifera's. The big Filifera out at Canvey Island had no damage from around -10C / 14F in Feb 2018. 

These CIDP in a colder part of north London would have took about -10C / 14F in December 2010 and 1-2 weeks below freezing when they were tiny. That event was during early winter as well, with the rest of winter to play out still and months before any real warmup. They likely defoliated completely while very small, but still came back fine.

2005676790_Screenshot2023-03-05at03_13_41.thumb.png.b3819ea4714544f0a7a89dff62114d47.png

401289393_Screenshot2023-03-05at03_12_08.thumb.png.39be3cd33aba4f7551e837d3a7a21f03.png

Good info, thanks.  I admit, I only looked up the info on Wikipedia.  I don't know anything about London microclimates.  Now USA climates and averages, I can tell you a lot about that.

I hope your right that the CIDP and Washingtonia won't be killed.  It would be great to see.  The Canary dates are already impressive and have thick crowns.  

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@UK_Palms These are all growing in one of the coldest parts of London.  Not much of an urban heat island in this area and it's about 50 miles inland from the ocean. This area was also the hottest on wundergound on the 40c+ day.

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Screenshot_20230305-065918052 (1).jpg

Edited by Foxpalms
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8 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

@UK_Palms These are all growing in one of the coldest parts of London.  Not much of an urban heat island in this area and it's about 50 miles inland from the ocean. This area was also the hottest on wundergound on the 40c+ day.

Screenshot_20230305-063643199 (1).jpg

Screenshot_20230305-063020585 (1).jpg

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Screenshot_20230305-064611454 (1).jpg

I have no idea if these are posted to show that CIDP’s or washingtonia grow fine in these colder inland UK areas but to me these are recent plantings that only show the area experiences too much cold every 5 years. 

This CIDP has been growing in a small town outside Amsterdam for a couple of years now, a very common sight because people keep planting them but they always disappear after a colder winter just like inland UK. 

9B37BB15-AFEC-4148-9A80-00EB1CCAC76E.jpeg

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1 minute ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

I have no idea if these are posted to show that CIDP’s or washingtonia grow fine in these colder inland UK areas but to me these are recent plantings that only show the area experiences too much cold every 5 years. 

This CIDP has been growing in a small town outside Amsterdam for a couple of years now, a very common sight because people keep planting them but they always disappear after a colder winter just like inland UK. 

9B37BB15-AFEC-4148-9A80-00EB1CCAC76E.jpeg

I would say they are recently planted not replaced since as you can see in the bottom image in the same area that Washingtonia has been there for 10+ years since it has been there since it was very small. Phoenix canariensis and Washingtonia have only commonly been sold in the last 10 years and especially the last 5. Before then you could probably buy one from a specialist nursery but not from DIY stores and grocery stores/supermarkets and the average garden center like you can now. When visiting that area 10+ years ago you wouldn't see CIDPS or Washingtonia other than maybe 1 or 2 whilst you do now. That area had a low of 19-20f this winter which was the coldest temperature there since the 80s. I also know of a washingtonia at 53N 20+ miles inland that survived through the 2010 winter.  That wasn't to show they grow inland, it was to show UKPalms some in colder parts of London.

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Ok, you added the larger washingtonia after my post, can you add the streetname as well?

It’s not true though that CIDP’s have only been commonly sold since 10 years. B&Q has been selling them since the early 2000’s. I have seen many small CIDP’s in frontgardens in the outskirts of London in 2009. 

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1 hour ago, Foxpalms said:

 Phoenix canariensis and Washingtonia have only commonly been sold in the last 10 years and especially the last 5. Before then you could probably buy one from a specialist nursery but not from DIY stores and grocery stores/supermarkets and the average garden center like you can now. When visiting that area 10+ years ago you wouldn't see CIDPS or Washingtonia other than maybe 1 or 2 whilst you do now

In 2009 the mass selling and planting of CIDP’s in DIY in the UK was already a hot topic (and they were planted all over the UK).

BADE1BC4-1148-4625-8268-0E8ED3098ACA.jpeg

Edited by Axel Amsterdam
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37 minutes ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

In 2009 the mass selling and planting of CIDP’s in DIY in the UK was already a hot topic (and they were planted all over the UK).

BADE1BC4-1148-4625-8268-0E8ED3098ACA.jpeg

Yes, I was thinking the same thing.  I have been away out of the palmgrowing scene for some years but I have a feeling that before 2010/2012 there were more species available and easier to get then they are now... I think i had around 100+ species growing in my early palm growing days, a lot of them are hard to find now.  

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8 minutes ago, kristof p said:

Yes, I was thinking the same thing.  I have been away out of the palmgrowing scene for some years but I have a feeling that before 2010/2012 there were more species available and easier to get then they are now... I think i had around 100+ species growing in my early palm growing days, a lot of them are hard to find now.  

Correct and 1000’s of smaller CIDP’s were planted in the UK and the only ones left are in coastal UK and London. 

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53 minutes ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

In 2009 the mass selling and planting of CIDP’s in DIY in the UK was already a hot topic (and they were planted all over the UK).

BADE1BC4-1148-4625-8268-0E8ED3098ACA.jpeg

Personally I never used to see them that doesn't mean that some didn't have them. You used to see them now and then in garden centers/ DIY stores along the coast but not so much inland. It was definitely a lot less common to see a CIDP sold back then than it is now.

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Regardless of your personal observations various posters in 2009 above state:

‘There are loads planted out in the southeast’

’they are thriving all over the place’

So they were there in masses pre 2009. The whole point on lack of availibility and, as a result, not enough experimenting is based on wrong assumptions. 

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I still hope you will post the streetname of the larger washingtonia in the coldest part of London. I am completely open to proof they can be grown longer term in colder areas (and this is only a colder area in London, let alone other inland areas) but i need a streetview link. 

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6 minutes ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

Correct and 1000’s of smaller CIDP’s were planted in the UK and the only ones left are in coastal UK and London. 

yes, just like here, most of them got killed between 2010 and 2012. There was a lot of experimenting going on in the pre-2010 years and gardencentrums knew this imo and had a bigger variaty of palms for sell. It was easy to find palms like Parajubaea, Thritrinax,  Sereona,  Acoelorrhaphe, Plectocomia, Arenga, etc to name a few.  Those few cold winters were a wake up call for a lot of us experimenting with all those palms and I think as people stopped trying those species, as they obviously have no long term survival rate in our climate, gardencentrums stopped selling them.  

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28 minutes ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

Regardless of your personal observations various posters in 2009 above state:

‘There are loads planted out in the southeast’

’they are thriving all over the place’

So they were there in masses pre 2009. The whole point on lack of availibility and, as a result, not enough experimenting is based on wrong assumptions. 

Yes but are there examples of them dieing in central Manchester or central Birmingham for example? Define masses, because I highly doubt it's anywhere near the amount of them sold nowdays. I'm sure enough were sold people could experiment but I also know certain areas never planted them untill recently. @kristof pThere is less choice of rarer palms however things such as Washingtonia and phoenix are more readily available here.

Edited by Foxpalms
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28 minutes ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

I still hope you will post the streetname of the larger washingtonia in the coldest part of London. I am completely open to proof they can be grown longer term in colder areas (and this is only a colder area in London, let alone other inland areas) but i need a streetview link. 

According to the nearby weather station it has seen at least 15f.

Screenshot_20230305-105739432 (1).jpg

Edited by Foxpalms
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4 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

Yes but are there examples of them dieing in central Manchester or central Birmingham for example? Define masses, because I highly doubt it's anywhere near the amount of them sold nowdays. I'm sure enough were sold people could experiment but I also know certain areas never planted them untill recently. @kristof pThere is less choice of rarer palms however things such as Washingtonia and phoenix are more readily available here.

I won’t define masses and i don’t feel the need to find examples that also people in city centres tried them. 

Apart from that, thanks for the washingtonia streetview link. It has been growing in that cold London suburb since 2012 and that’s really impressive. 

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31 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

Yes but are there examples of them dieing in central Manchester or central Birmingham for example? Define masses, because I highly doubt it's anywhere near the amount of them sold nowdays. I'm sure enough were sold people could experiment but I also know certain areas never planted them untill recently. @kristof pThere is less choice of rarer palms however things such as Washingtonia and phoenix are more readily available here.

From what I see palms like Phoenix and washingtonia are just as common in gardencentrums now as they were 20 years ago... I quess this is not very different in the UK.  I can follow Alex on this one. P. canarensis and Washingtonia are definitely one of the most trialed species of the last 20 or 30 years in North Europe but they only are longterm in a few places like londen and other warmer parts of the UK, along the coast of Ireland, Some warmer parts of Normandy and Brittany and along the atlantic coast and always not to far from the sea. Here in the milder parts of Belguim  we can grow them but once every decade or so they get killed without protection....Maybe, just maybe when this climate warming up trend keeps going on it will be possible to grow them longterm in places further away from the sea. Let's hope so because they are impressive and beautiull palms.

Edited by kristof p
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8 hours ago, ChicagoPalma said:

Ima do a robusta because of the wet winters. For filifera, If I would be able to have like a root ball with some heating wire or something to heat the roots, that might be good, but the wetness of the winter will still affect the palm.

Do not plant a Filifera as it will not end well. Your summers are too wet and humid there with approx 25-30 inches of rain just from May - October alone. That is more than I get for the entire year here and most of mine is concentrated in the autumn/fall and winter. Your water table will be too high and create separate problems to the cold winter issue when you factor in humidity too. They can handle cool-wet winters as shown here in southern England, but they really need a dry, warm period to grow well during the summer.

You will get away with all that rainfall and humidity in hotter climates with milder winters, say in Texas, but not where you are. Rather than recover, a Filifera will continue to decline through spring and summer there with a high water table. A Robusta or Filibusta hybrid will handle the rain and humidity much better, but your winter protection will need to be impeccable beyond belief still. The drainage will need to be absolutely on point there whether you do a Robusta or Filifera. Personally, I would just stick to Trachycarpus.

Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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Yeah, I want to stick with the trachys, but their crown looks awfully small when in full sun. But either way, I'm not planting a filifera. I was thinking about Robusta because the Canadian guy, James palms, has grown a couple of them in the ground for many years and they do best in full sun.  Also we do sometimes get Dry summers but these years we get lots of humidity during the summer and it doesn't rain as much, but we will have a two day rain shower once a month or more.

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Also please, no more talking about canaries and them being in britain and all that. There is literally a topic for that. 

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53 minutes ago, ChicagoPalma said:

Also please, no more talking about canaries and them being in britain and all that. There is literally a topic for that. 

agree! ;).... now in your case I would maybe try a B. decumbens or B armata, with good protection ofcourse but they can handle prolonged freezing temperatures if kept dry. Maybe even a B. moorei as mine has never shown damage even with temps as low as -8/10 in dry conditions. As long as you can give them some extra warm conditions during extreme cold spells and they have a good warm growing season for the rest of the year you should be fine. Look for species that never grow

to big to give protection ;)

 

Edited by kristof p
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Im aiming for the trunking ones. But yes, some smaller palms will look nice. I actually might try to grow a couple sabals this year maybe. They will definitely be easier to grow.

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3 hours ago, ChicagoPalma said:

Also please, no more talking about canaries and them being in britain and all that. There is literally a topic for that. 

No kidding. Your post got hi-jacked brother.

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5 hours ago, ChicagoPalma said:

Yeah, I want to stick with the trachys, but their crown looks awfully small when in full sun. But either way, I'm not planting a filifera. I was thinking about Robusta because the Canadian guy, James palms, has grown a couple of them in the ground for many years and they do best in full sun.  Also we do sometimes get Dry summers but these years we get lots of humidity during the summer and it doesn't rain as much, but we will have a two day rain shower once a month or more.

Would a sabal Palmetto work with protection?

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Probably, I can probably grow a Queen palm here in Chicago if I gave it extra protection. But yes a palmetto would probably grow here with protection during the winter.

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We had some very warm weather today. Felt like 60. It was very sunny as well, although I was tired the whole day for no reason.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Ik you live in Siberia but honestly if I was you ur best bet is the dwarf form of sabal minor they don’t get big at all they should be easy to protect or you can try a mccurtain but those get larger your gonna have to protect them either way I live in Tennessee 7a and even tho it’s warm enough for needles and minor I want to be somewhere better 8a-9a I’m moving to flordia for that reason 

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8 hours ago, Weston wally said:

Ik you live in Siberia but honestly if I was you ur best bet is the dwarf form of sabal minor they don’t get big at all they should be easy to protect or you can try a mccurtain but those get larger your gonna have to protect them either way I live in Tennessee 7a and even tho it’s warm enough for needles and minor I want to be somewhere better 8a-9a I’m moving to flordia for that reason 

Chicago winters are not that bad really. Canadians have it worse but they have Washingtonias up there. Check out James palms and Green Dragan. They both grow 9a/8b palms up there, and I can’t even imagine what green dragan uses to protect his bismarckia and Pindo and all that. James palms has two large trachys, a 10ft Mexican fan palm, and two smaller Mexican fan palms. All he uses is foam board for insulation and some c9 lights wrapped around the trunk.

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8 hours ago, Weston wally said:

Ik you live in Siberia but honestly if I was you ur best bet is the dwarf form of sabal minor they don’t get big at all they should be easy to protect or you can try a mccurtain but those get larger your gonna have to protect them either way I live in Tennessee 7a and even tho it’s warm enough for needles and minor I want to be somewhere better 8a-9a I’m moving to flordia for that reason 

Siberian winters are far worse than Chicago winters. That’s just stupid to say that Chicago winters are Siberian winters.

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