beccariophoenix alfredii vs a coconut

[redant]

Both planted about the same size and same time, about 10 ft apart. Neither ever fertilized. While I do love beccariophoenix alfredii, it's clearly not a real coconut substitute. Like all beccariophoenix it's pretty slow, takes up a massive circumference and the fronds spread for miles lol. beccariophoenix alfredii is very jurrasic park like.  

 

Edited February 6 by redant

[redant]

My favorite of all the beccariophoenix is the one nobody ever talks about lol, slow, easy and stunning

[Hurricanepalms]

Both are beautiful palms. Unfortunately, from my experience, Beccariophoenix are not very wind tolerant. We had multiple tip over in last year’s hurricanes and we only experienced weak cat 1 hurricane winds max.

[Billy]

8 hours ago, redant said:

My favorite of all the beccariophoenix is the one nobody ever talks about lol, slow, easy and stunning

I suppose you're talking about B. Madagascariensis? There's a pretty big one not too far from my house that I go visit quite often and I love the upright form and the color of the petioles. Looks like it's exploding out of the ground like a volcano. The more relaxed fronds of palm in this photo looks more like Alfredii to me. Is it Madagascariensis?

[redant]

13 hours ago, Hurricanepalms said:

Both are beautiful palms. Unfortunately, from my experience, Beccariophoenix are not very wind tolerant. We had multiple tip over in last year’s hurricanes and we only experienced weak cat 1 hurricane winds max.

if you look at the base of the beast you will see all the former poles and such to support it. It's pretty darn sturdy at this point but yeah for many years they tip and sway way to easily. A hurricane will clearly rip it out of the ground when young.

[redant]

11 hours ago, Billy said:

I suppose you're talking about B. Madagascariensis? There's a pretty big one not too far from my house that I go visit quite often and I love the upright form and the color of the petioles. Looks like it's exploding out of the ground like a volcano. The more relaxed fronds of palm in this photo looks more like Alfredii to me. Is it Madagascariensis?

It's had some name changes over the years,  Beccariophoenix madagascariensis 'no windows' - Palmpedia - Palm Grower's Guide  thats it.  I have multiples of all 3 but this one always strikes me as the best of the bunch. I have no idea why it's not used more. All my palms struggle for light so that's probably why it's more relaxed.

Edited February 7 by redant

[Merlyn]

1 hour ago, redant said:

It's had some name changes over the years,  Beccariophoenix madagascariensis 'no windows' - Palmpedia - Palm Grower's Guide  thats it.  I have multiples of all 3 but this one always strikes me as the best of the bunch. I have no idea why it's not used more. All my palms struggle for light so that's probably why it's more relaxed.

Yeah the non-Alfredii names are confusing.  If I have it right there was a B. Madagascariensis...then a "windows" and a "no-windows"...then a B. Madagascariensis (the no-windows type) and the B. Fenestralis (the windows type).  Is that right?

Anyway, I think the reason Alfredii is dominating in the growing and sales is because of the relative hardiness.  My 15+ footers took 24-26F with frost and only had minor damage.  Reports on the other two aren't quite as good, but Madagascariensis seems to be a solid 9B survivor.  The faster growth after seedling stage probably helps.    I really need to pick up a couple of Madagascariensis, as I already have 5 big Alfredii in the ground and another ~20 in pots...

[sonoranfans]

I think the size of an alfredii will depend more on sun exposure and soil.  Obviously getting knocked down just destroys roots, retarding growth.  My full sun one is around 28-30' overall and it was spread out from its shuttlecock shape by IAN where we had gusts to 97 mph.  I have two others in part shade(20-24') that took more damage in bent and fractured petioles.  I agree ALfredii or any beccariophoenix is not a coconut substitute.  Mine has a 36" thick clear trunk bulging at the base of 8' of trunk and is about 35' wide leaf tip toi tip.  I think planting in sandy or rocky soil only exacerbates the wind issues which are due to a much bigger crown than roots can stabilize early in life.  I guess I got lucky,  only one of mine had a mild tilt in IRMA, nothing from IAN but bent and fractured petioles.  The leaflets on all of mine are over 50" long, its a different "jurassic" look than a coconut.  No one guesses it to be a coconut as those are notably smaller in crown with fewer leaves and more yellowish in this area.  The good side is trimming is much more safe, LOL!  I think I will be able to trim mine for another 20 years from the ground with my 18' pole saw.   

[Lou-StAugFL]

I am pleasantly surprised at how cold and frost tolerant BA are here in St. Augustine.  Both of mine were pretty exposed during the Christmas cold spell here in St. Augustine and they have almost zero damage.   There are just a very few strands of frond that turned brown.   My Archontophoenix cunninghamiana and Adonidia merrillii had much more frond burn.  When they are young their fronds look very coconut like up here in non coconut territory. The hurricanes were harder on them than the cold.  Both of mine leaned  after the hurricanes but I have braced them back into place. 

Edited February 7 by Lou-StAugFL

[redant]

3 hours ago, sonoranfans said:

I think the size of an alfredii will depend more on sun exposure and soil.  Obviously getting knocked down just destroys roots, retarding growth.  My full sun one is around 28-30' overall and it was spread out from its shuttlecock shape by IAN where we had gusts to 97 mph.  I have two others in part shade(20-24') that took more damage in bent and fractured petioles.  I agree ALfredii or any beccariophoenix is not a coconut substitute.  Mine has a 36" thick clear trunk bulging at the base of 8' of trunk and is about 35' wide leaf tip toi tip.  I think planting in sandy or rocky soil only exacerbates the wind issues which are due to a much bigger crown than roots can stabilize early in life.  I guess I got lucky,  only one of mine had a mild tilt in IRMA, nothing from IAN but bent and fractured petioles.  The leaflets on all of mine are over 50" long, its a different "jurassic" look than a coconut.  No one guesses it to be a coconut as those are notably smaller in crown with fewer leaves and more yellowish in this area.  The good side is trimming is much more safe, LOL!  I think I will be able to trim mine for another 20 years from the ground with my 18' pole saw.   

The no windows version you can prune for your entire lifespan with a pair of hand clippers and no ladder. The one in the picture is about 13 to 15 years old.

[richtrav]

The no-windows “true” madagascariensis is the only decent looking one of the genus I’ve seen in South Texas, alfredii doesn’t really like it here (though it can languish in the shade) and it did poorly in the ‘21 freeze (~23F). The thicker glossier leaves of madagascariensis seem to help in our climate and it appears to anchor itself down better, keeping its growing point lower. On the whole Attalea is a much more satisfactory genus to fool with.

[Tyrone]

B alfredii is a great coconut substitute if you can't grow a coconut. Its about the closest thing too it out there. 

[Merlyn]

5 hours ago, richtrav said:

The no-windows “true” madagascariensis is the only decent looking one of the genus I’ve seen in South Texas, alfredii doesn’t really like it here (though it can languish in the shade) and it did poorly in the ‘21 freeze (~23F). The thicker glossier leaves of madagascariensis seem to help in our climate and it appears to anchor itself down better, keeping its growing point lower. On the whole Attalea is a much more satisfactory genus to fool with.

Out of curiosity, which Attalea have you had success with?  I've lost one 8' frond Cohune to frost and crown rot, and two others defoliated but seem to be rebounding year-on-year okay at their small size.  I also have Brejinhoensis, Butyracea, and Phalerata out in the yard and doing pretty well down to the mid 20s with frost.  I read that Speciosa is a good hardy option too, but I haven't found one yet.

[richtrav]

Cohune is the easiest, after a hard freeze it’s a good idea to cut it back to green tissue and treat it with hydrogen peroxide or copper fungicide. This is the large one in the back yard last summer. When they’re young they bounce back more quickly after a freeze. I have a smaller one from Action Theory that is labeled speciosa but it’s hard to tell much difference from cohune. Butryacea is the one native south of Tampico and it burns easily but the large one in Brownsville recovered from ‘21. Dr Montalvo in Brownsville has a number of different ones he’s grown from seed and most have done well, some got a little scorch this past winter but most were fine.

[redant]

On 2/8/2023 at 2:56 AM, richtrav said:

The no-windows “true” madagascariensis is the only decent looking one of the genus I’ve seen in South Texas, alfredii doesn’t really like it here (though it can languish in the shade) and it did poorly in the ‘21 freeze (~23F). The thicker glossier leaves of madagascariensis seem to help in our climate and it appears to anchor itself down better, keeping its growing point lower. On the whole Attalea is a much more satisfactory genus to fool with.

Mine has been through some freezes here but nothing like the TX freezes. 09/10 was a long term 30 to 32 every night for like 14 days and not much relief during the day. These never flinched.

[sonoranfans]

I think texas is too cold for beccariophoenix, at least the snaps which are more severe than florida.  Alfrediis are not a jungle palm more like hilly savannah palm of the upper plains @ 3500'.  They develop deep roots in my experience but only where you water cycle.  Soggy soil will limit root growth and strength. as would drying soil with root dieback.  Ive seen  30' bismarckia in rocky wet soil in miami that I could move with a push on the trunk.  Treat this palm more like a bismarckia than a coconut in terms of soil and irrigation.    When you see them on the habitat pics on the upper plateau they look like they get lots of direct sun.   

[richtrav]

The madagascariensis in Brownsville survived ‘21 but I’d still rather fool with Attalea.

[Merlyn]

15 hours ago, richtrav said:

Cohune is the easiest, after a hard freeze it’s a good idea to cut it back to green tissue and treat it with hydrogen peroxide or copper fungicide. This is the large one in the back yard last summer. When they’re young they bounce back more quickly after a freeze. I have a smaller one from Action Theory that is labeled speciosa but it’s hard to tell much difference from cohune. Butryacea is the one native south of Tampico and it burns easily but the large one in Brownsville recovered from ‘21. Dr Montalvo in Brownsville has a number of different ones he’s grown from seed and most have done well, some got a little scorch this past winter but most were fine.

That's a great looking Cohune!  My problem with them is near 100% defoliation each winter.  I think if I were on the SW side of Orlando they'd do okay, but they seem to be very frost sensitive.  They do grow back reasonably fast, but only get a couple of decent fronds each year...that then get burnt off in December or January.  I bought a couple of Brejinhoensis and they have so far been substantially hardier than the others.  They also have a neat variegated petiole/rachis, which is pretty unique!

[Lou-StAugFL]

On this rainy day, almost  7 weeks after our freeze event.  You can see slight burn on a few edges.  We were 28 degrees here in St. Augustine South, Florida, it may have gone down to 27 degrees in the front of the house where the larger BA is located.  Overall, I am very impressed with their handling of the cold freezing temperatures.

Edited February 11 by Lou-StAugFL

[TaylorPlantHunter]

On 2/9/2023 at 6:54 PM, Merlyn said:

That's a great looking Cohune!  My problem with them is near 100% defoliation each winter.  I think if I were on the SW side of Orlando they'd do okay, but they seem to be very frost sensitive.  They do grow back reasonably fast, but only get a couple of decent fronds each year...that then get burnt off in December or January.  I bought a couple of Brejinhoensis and they have so far been substantially hardier than the others.  They also have a neat variegated petiole/rachis, which is pretty unique!

Merlyn. I also love Attalea and I am in central Florida a ways south of Orlando on the Lake Wales Ridge. I have A. speciosa, and A. brejinhoensis. I am about to get a Cohune too. Do you know of a source for more A. brejinhoensis? I wish I would have bought more at the time when I had a chance. Thanks