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Deodar Cedar in Florida


Palms and Pines

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This is my deodar cedar, I’ve had it in the ground since august 2021, it’s a little scraggly but over all it has been doing OK so far for a plant that’s not adapted to this climate. Has anyone else tried one of these in Florida? I don’t recall seeing one at Leu.

E0D467C0-D599-4A4A-8631-07A4D6B75AA9.jpeg

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Also does anyone know what happened to the deodars at hogwarts castle at universal island of adventure in Orlando? I’ve never been there but I used to admire them on the videos I’ve seen. On google earth it looks like they have mostly been replaced with Arizona cypress, but in some other areas of the park they are still present. These were the ‘patti faye‘ cultivar from my understanding. Good chance they outright died but I also think they may have just Replaced them due to them being scraggly.

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@Palms and Pines It would be interesting to see one do well in Central FL.

Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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I agree, I’ve heard of a few surviving on a different forum but no pictures were provided and the only ones I know of definitely here are the ones at hogwarts. I think reverse zone pushing “northern” plants can be just as interesting as zone pushing tropicals sometimes.

Other out of climate plants I have/have tried include

Robinia pseudoacacia (gets some leaf scorch in summer but over all has done ok so far)

pinus picea (Survived for nearly 5 years but was finally killed by flooding from Ian)

pinus halepensis (Doing ok so far only been planted out 2 years)

pinus radiata (loves the dry season dies in summer)

cupressus macrocarpa (dame as radiata)

coast redwood (air potato tubers killed it)

dawn redwood (just straight up died)

freemans maple (from northern source, straight up died)

 

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7 minutes ago, Palms and Pines said:

I think reverse zone pushing “northern” plants can be just as interesting as zone pushing tropicals sometimes.

The big reverse zone push here is the Southern Sugar Maple: https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/publication/ST007

In regard to palms, a favorite to try is Jubaea chilensis

I love tulips, but the effort it would take to keep a nice tulip garden is beyond what I can do at this time.

Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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1 hour ago, kinzyjr said:

The big reverse zone push here is the Southern Sugar Maple: https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/publication/ST007

 

Makes me sense to me as there are a few isolated populations of southern sugar maple in the peninsula, and they seem to do well. Some reverse zone pushes I’ve seen here include a few weeping willows and some sad looking Leyland cypresses.
 

As far as palms go I do remember your post of the trachycarpus in Lakeland so I guess that would be considered reverse zone pushing.

I agree about tulips, but I must admit I usually do buy some as annuals around springtime.

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I've always been curious about that species and Atlas cedar but I don't have space for either (I do plan on doing an Atlas cedar bonsai eventually though).

I like playing with reverse zone pushes as well. Several daffodils are quite reliable for me in coastal north FL, mostly Tazetta types like 'Erlicheer' which open around Valentines Day. I also have N. x odorus Campernelle and N. triandrus Thalia that have bloomed multiple years in a row. They get pollinated by the beetles that use Magnolia.  And not much of a zone push since it's southernmost species, but I had Aquilegia chrysantha from seed for 4 years. They survived being in 1 gals on my full sun driveway in the summer I think most issues people report with them might be nematode susceptibility as I kept mine from contacting soil. And oddly, despite being a spring-flowering species every year they flowered in July for me.

I have potted Bellevalia and Muscari macrocarpum but I haven't gotten them to flower yet.

 

If you like the look of tulips you might like Eustoma exaltatum, weird annual gentian family member native to FL and various other parts of Southern US and South America. Leaves are a pretty pale blue green too.

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Collector of native, ornithophilous, Stachytarpheta, iridescent, and blue or teal-flowering plants

 

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22 minutes ago, Calosphace said:

I had Aquilegia chrysantha from seed for 4 years. They survived being in 1 gals on my full sun driveway in the summer I think most issues people report with them might be nematode susceptibility as I kept mine from contacting soil. And oddly, despite being a spring-flowering species every year they flowered in July for me.

 

Not surprised at all that A chrysantha might survive in parts of FL. considering it is native to the fairly warm areas here in AZ, and grows in gardens in Tucson.. possibly here in  shade.  Not surprising to see it flowering during monsoon season in in July / Aug / Sept. both in gardens or habitat here either.  At least 3 other Columbine sp. here in cen. / southern AZ. as well. 

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5 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Not surprised at all that A chrysantha might survive in parts of FL. considering it is native to the fairly warm areas here in AZ, and grows in gardens in Tucson.. possibly here in  shade.  Not surprising to see it flowering during monsoon season in in July / Aug / Sept. both in gardens or habitat here either.  At least 3 other Columbine sp. here in cen. / southern AZ. as well. 

Yeah heat tolerance was expected based on range, I think most people I spoke with surprised with it were unfamiliar with southwestern species/more used to the common hybrids used in new england a lot. And that's interesting. I had the 'Yellow Queen' strain and everyone I knew growing it said it flowered in early summer at latest, not in late July (unlike most perennials in my location). It corresponding to Az monsoon season makes a lot more sense and would explain why it flowered in late July for me as well.

Collector of native, ornithophilous, Stachytarpheta, iridescent, and blue or teal-flowering plants

 

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2 hours ago, Calosphace said:

Yeah heat tolerance was expected based on range, I think most people I spoke with surprised with it were unfamiliar with southwestern species/more used to the common hybrids used in new england a lot. And that's interesting. I had the 'Yellow Queen' strain and everyone I knew growing it said it flowered in early summer at latest, not in late July (unlike most perennials in my location). It corresponding to Az monsoon season makes a lot more sense and would explain why it flowered in late July for me as well.

Overall, the main show is in spring, but peaks again following monsoon rains later on.  Heat tolerance is just enough that it can grow decently in Tucson. Here, as mentioned, it might grow in shade, but likely wouldn't be as long lived.

There's another sp.,  A. desertorum  that might have a touch more heat tolerance,  particularly if sourced from a population that grows in the hills west of Nogales.  That's just an assumption though based on that area being at a lower elevation,  and often somewhat warmer /  drier than where other populations of it ..and chrysantha.. grow in S. AZ.  I'd bet it still wouldn't survive here. Resembles the other 5 or so Red / Yellow flowered Columbine sp. here in the west, and can flower up until October. 

A.  skinneri, from the mid/ higher elevations in the Sierra Madre Occidental in Mexico is definitely a summer- only flower-er, flowering from about July- Fall.  Calochortus sp. ( Mariposa Lilies ) from Mexico are also mainly Summer / Fall flowering.  ... A big surprise to anyone in the west who knows the Genus since all the Mariposa Lily sp. in the western U.S. flower in spring only. 

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Very interesting discussion, the only flower I’ve seriously tried to push is common sunflower, usually grows but rarely into a nice one, most are stunted they seem to hate the soil here and seem to get powdery mildew a lot. I’ve seen pictures of a sunflower at lower elevations in Hawaii so I know it can be done but the soil is much better there.

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13 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Not surprised at all that A chrysantha might survive in parts of FL. considering it is native to the fairly warm areas here in AZ, and grows in gardens in Tucson.. possibly here in  shade.  Not surprising to see it flowering during monsoon season in in July / Aug / Sept. both in gardens or habitat here either.  At least 3 other Columbine sp. here in cen. / southern AZ. as well. 

What’s interesting to me is some desert plants from Arizona seem to do ok here Prosopis velutina reportedly does ok and cupressus arizonica does well, Washingtonia filifera doesn’t like it but will live, but most of the succulents from the desert seems unable to even survive. Way too much water and moisture I guess.

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1 hour ago, Palms and Pines said:

What’s interesting to me is some desert plants from Arizona seem to do ok here Prosopis velutina reportedly does ok and cupressus arizonica does well, Washingtonia filifera doesn’t like it but will live, but most of the succulents from the desert seems unable to even survive. Way too much water and moisture I guess.

Looking at origin and overall distribution, Prosopis, *** Now reassigned to the Genus Neltuma ***  as a whole would be more properly classed as subtropical woodland plants rather than one that is confined to desert areas.  Realistically,  as tough of a tree as they are,  even they will struggle / look scrappy ( at best ) where growing in the driest stretches of the Sonoran  / Colorado desert sub division where they receive very little water. 

Even in S. AZ where moisture is more plentiful ( but perhaps still bone dry compared to places like FL,  wetter areas of Mexico, and S. TX.  ) a lot of mesquites you'll see growing on drier flats / away from seasonably reliable sources of water there are often on the shorter side. 

 

The adaptability of Cupressus arizonica > and the smooth-barked form <  isn' t a huge surprise considering its origins..  While it will grow, if provided enough water, you don't see it used too much in the actual desert.  Both native  " Cypress" prefer the foothills,  where it is generally cooler / wetter in both summer and winter.  At one point, when the climate at Phoenix elevation resembled say Sedona, those Cypress,  Juniper,  and Pinyon would have been the dominant vegetation type, vs. the predominantly  subtropical desert flora you see now..

Agree,  true desert stuff can be tougher -or nearly impossible-  to cultivate in hot, humid, and wet places like FL.  Though I still believe some stuff can be grown successfully.

Main issue for many of them is night time temps through the summer, rather than moisture ( though too much of it can cause it's own issues )  I posted this somewhere awhile back but in 2020, when we had one of the hottest / driest summer's here,  Saguaro,  especially ...but not confined to..  specimens growing in suburban / urban areas started toppling over, due to the heat ..and being provided too much water.  Out in the desert, researchers who have been monitoring various populations in various areas of the state are seeing a trend in  Saguaro recruitment that suggests they are moving uphill, or to north facing sides of hills, mainly to escape increasing temperature / temp. exposure ( those sites where specimens / younger plants appear to be doing better on north facing hillsides )

With my own cactus collection, when night time temperatures exceed roughly 76 or so, I don't water..  Do so and you'll often see your plants melt into a puddle of goo.. Simply put, because of how most cacti and succulents breathe, when it is too hot out at night, those  processes dont function properly. 

Regardless,  recommend anyone looking look into what grows in the wetter / more humid section southern Sonora,  nearby Sinaloa,  along the S.W. and S. E. coasts of Mexico, ect.  for cactus / other succulent-type plant sp. that may handle the above mentioned conditions better than many things here in the AZ section of the Sonoran Desert.  

Trying to grow stuff from the Great Basin / Mojave in a hot / wet climate area?  Yeah,  that's going to be pretty challenging since those areas are cooler and drier, even compared to here.. Mojave itself is often classed as a desert of Mediterranean climate origin.  Even here, you have a 50/50 shot at growing many things from the Mojave ..or Interior Great Gasin areas successfully, esp. in the valley.  Foothill areas where it is a little cooler / wetter, esp. in winter,  especially north and west of Phoenix, better odds of successfully growing more of that stuff.  For now at least.

 

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Yeah I don’t think I’d ever try any things from those deserts here seems way to risky. Only desert plant I’m trying here from any desert is cardon cactus and I guess opuntia counts as well.

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On 2/2/2023 at 8:50 AM, Palms and Pines said:

Very interesting discussion, the only flower I’ve seriously tried to push is common sunflower, usually grows but rarely into a nice one, most are stunted they seem to hate the soil here and seem to get powdery mildew a lot. I’ve seen pictures of a sunflower at lower elevations in Hawaii so I know it can be done but the soil is much better there.

Not sure if this helps but at work we had sunflowers taller than me. These were in full sun in compost from our facility. I also recall them tarping the beds to solarize them. Every time I have tried to grow sunflowers they were pathetic the tallest one I had was a birdseed volunteer but it got damaged by a late frost. I really suspect our root knot nematodes must be what gets them

 

Also appreciate all the info Silas. I'm very unfamiliar with western habitats (would love to visit SW someday).

I do grow two western Agastache, Kudos Yellow and Peachie Keen. From what I understand, Agastache aurantica has greater humidity tolerance so hybrids with that parentage work better. I still killed members of that species historically (seed-grown). What I do now is cococoir-based mix (Fox Farm Cocoloco) with an additional 1/2 perlite, extremely fast draining but I finally was able to get them to survive the summer rainy season including heavy rain from tropical storm.

I'm trying to figure out a similar setup for Salvia Elk Blue Note. Ones with more Salvia microphylla seem longer-lived but I prefer the more linear foliage less common in them.

Interesting about Sinaloa, I'll have to look into more from there. I do grow Salvia sinaloensis and it's been an exotic salvia that has persisted well in-ground to the point I could divide it, most ones like that are hybrids rather than species.

Another group of plants I've had success with from the west are annuals native to winter wet regions. I find our winter "dry season" (still probably wetter than their habitat) must be climatically similar enough that I get them to perform decently. It started with Nemophila 'Total Eclipse' two years ago and now I am also trying out Gilia capitata (forming buds right now and undamaged by 24 F in December). Other regions with such climates have worked too, Mediterranean annuals (Cerinthe marjor being my favorite). I think Australia has an area with such a climate too and I've love to try plants from there eventually.

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Collector of native, ornithophilous, Stachytarpheta, iridescent, and blue or teal-flowering plants

 

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5 hours ago, Calosphace said:

Not sure if this helps but at work we had sunflowers taller than me. These were in full sun in compost from our facility. I also recall them tarping the beds to solarize them. Every time I have tried to grow sunflowers they were pathetic the tallest one I had was a birdseed volunteer but it got damaged by a late frost. I really suspect our root knot nematodes must be what gets them

 

Also appreciate all the info Silas. I'm very unfamiliar with western habitats (would love to visit SW someday).

I do grow two western Agastache, Kudos Yellow and Peachie Keen. From what I understand, Agastache aurantica has greater humidity tolerance so hybrids with that parentage work better. I still killed members of that species historically (seed-grown). What I do now is cococoir-based mix (Fox Farm Cocoloco) with an additional 1/2 perlite, extremely fast draining but I finally was able to get them to survive the summer rainy season including heavy rain from tropical storm.

I'm trying to figure out a similar setup for Salvia Elk Blue Note. Ones with more Salvia microphylla seem longer-lived but I prefer the more linear foliage less common in them.

Interesting about Sinaloa, I'll have to look into more from there. I do grow Salvia sinaloensis and it's been an exotic salvia that has persisted well in-ground to the point I could divide it, most ones like that are hybrids rather than species.

Another group of plants I've had success with from the west are annuals native to winter wet regions. I find our winter "dry season" (still probably wetter than their habitat) must be climatically similar enough that I get them to perform decently. It started with Nemophila 'Total Eclipse' two years ago and now I am also trying out Gilia capitata (forming buds right now and undamaged by 24 F in December). Other regions with such climates have worked too, Mediterranean annuals (Cerinthe marjor being my favorite). I think Australia has an area with such a climate too and I've love to try plants from there eventually.

Southwest U.S. is a very unique area with a pretty wild assemblage of plants for such a geographically small area.  If you add in both Baja and the western half of Mexico, ..Pretty much everything west of the crest of the Sierra Madre Occidental, South to roughly Lake Chapala / Guadalajara,  the assortment of plant life in just that section of Mexico is almost overwhelming. 

If you look around this area of the forum, and in the "Ohana Nui section of the forum, i've chronicled several areas i visit between my side of greater Phoenix, Tucson, and down along part of the borderlands due south / southeast of Tucson over the last several years. That's just scratching the surface...  See titled threads such as  " Monsoon Magic Plants",  Oak Flat, The Emerald Desert and " Not so Socially Distanced Walkabout"  series, ...visits to both Boyce Thompson Arboretum /  Tohono Chul Park, etc..  If you know where to go, especially at the right times of year,  level of both the plant and animal diversity here is pretty incredible.  ..and thats comming from someone who grew up in California, which itself is an amazing place for diversity among both areas of biology / ecology.  

As far as Salvia go, weve got numerous interesting species here, and throughout most of the west. That said, the level in diversity of Sages in Mexico is pretty overwhelming.. One of my personal favorites ins Grape Leaved Sage ( S. melissodora ) scented leaves, great smelling flowers.. Will grow here, though I've killed 2 trying to find the sweet spot for it in my yard so far.. S. greggii, microphylla / lemmonii <spelling> are pretty popular in gardens and can do ok if treated right. I myself prefer species or natural crosses due to adaptability.. overly crossed hybrids tend to be weaker. 

Tried what was supposedly one of the tougher Agastache crosses last year but, yea, lol.. didn't take low desert heat for long before coaking.  Funy because i can look up into foothill areas east of me where at least one native sp. grows from the house.  Some also do fairly well in parts of California. They definitely like gritty, very well draining soil for sure..  Think some of the species from the plains / back east will tolerate denser soil.. or so i thought.. 

When it comes to providing that kind of soil mix for certain stuff, i too use only coco peat for the organic component. Peat Moss is just awfull and environmentally irresponsible.  Not a fan of perlite either, using inorganics like Pumice, Turface MVP,  Lava cinder,  and / or grit i collect and sort through from some washes here instead. Majority of my cacti are in soil mixes that are at least 85% gritty stuff. Rare that anything rots. 

Have heard that sandy / gritty soil combined w / stuff like compost ..and lots of sun / heat of course.. is perfect for Sunflowers..  Planning on growing several of the more exotic looking, bi- colored / Red / Maroon - colored cultivars and wild collected seed for part of this years " Monsoon Season Magic "  this coming summer.  Hoping to time planting right so at least some will still be flowering when the solar eclipse occures this fall. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Just for additional reference here are the deodars (via Google earth) that were present at Universal, but as I mentioned before from what I've seen on some YouTube videos most of them have been removed.

Screenshot_20230216-210642_Earth.jpg

Screenshot_20230216-210521_Earth.jpg

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