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Freezing rain Texas


MarcusH

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What a drop in temperature going from 78° to 35° in less than 24hrs.  We expect some freezing rain within the next 24hrs with a low of 30° . We aren't going to be above freezing for a whole day down here in San Antonio.  For the second time this winter I covered my palms but this time , since they're all young and small I used trash bags to cover the crown and bud making sure water doesn't get inside the bud.  Getting already tired of this winter. Are you guys protecting any of your palms ? My palms are still recovering from last winter storm . Wish you all luck.  

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Thank you! Couldn't have wished for a more destructive winter after a record-breaking summer that left most of my palms weakened already (I generally don't irrigate). I had left all my protection from the earlier freeze so I don't expect this event will be able to much more much more than I would have already lost. Unless I see temps in the 30s in the long term forecast, I do plan to take protections off next weekend and start living the Spring life.

I am trying to have fun with hardscape in the meantime. Check out this little waterfall I put together with some rocks (Sabal Louisiana - always unprotected, in the back)!

~ S

Waterfall.jpg

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I'm about to go out and put some of my potted palms in the garage. I'm thinking the hardier stuff should be ok? 

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we got out freezing rain here in OKC today uggh.. and not going to be above freezing now until wednesday around noon

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Youtube - Okpalms 

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Yeah, good luck Watts, more like Thurs for you guys. We'll be lucky to see barely above by then.

How is the NWS so far off with this? The very day before they had DFW at barely freezing and no precip to 

a bloody winter storm warning this morn! My gawd, get a better forecast model, man! 

I grumply put on my heavy coat, gloves and insulated socks and bundled everything up ( as snot runs down nose) LOL

Geez, if it's not a damn oven it's the bloody North Pole!

Hang in there rest of country, The East is about to get really freakin cold. Feel sorry for any newly planted babies out East, tho

it looks like Florida will be spared this time.

2021FreezeSabalB.jpeg

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2 minutes ago, palmnut-fry said:

How is the NWS so far off with this? The very day before they had DFW at barely freezing and no precip to 

a bloody winter storm warning this morn! My gawd, get a better forecast model, man! 

You'd figure they'd have a better idea as to what's going to happen considering these fronts have been moving across the continent for the last couple of days.  Out here they are terrible, but I think the Ocean makes it so difficult to predict what will happen when it hits landfall.

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Yeah, guess. But there's this utube channel said the other day we were facing 10F this week and ice so atleast he was way off.

BTW, this is my poor Sabal bermudana after the severe '21 freeze after I took off blankets! Recovered great but now is all burnt on most of it.

I just hope it gets above freezing tomorrow, if only for a couple hours!

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3 hours ago, Swolte said:

Thank you! Couldn't have wished for a more destructive winter after a record-breaking summer that left most of my palms weakened already (I generally don't irrigate). I had left all my protection from the earlier freeze so I don't expect this event will be able to much more much more than I would have already lost. Unless I see temps in the 30s in the long term forecast, I do plan to take protections off next weekend and start living the Spring life.

I am trying to have fun with hardscape in the meantime. Check out this little waterfall I put together with some rocks (Sabal Louisiana - always unprotected, in the back)!

~ S

Waterfall.jpg

I like the way it looks, like a little oasis,  great job !!! Yes I start getting a little frustrating with our winters here in Texas.  A day ago my AccuWeather app showed slightly higher temperatures so when my wife called me from work today she told me people started talking about freezing rain I told her that's more likely going to happen in the Hill Country oh boy was I wrong 😅

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It could be worse is what I keep reiterating,  and again reinforces why especially in NTX Sabals should be the 90% of what one plants, with some variety around that.  I didn't protect a thing besides my BxJ (threw a frost blanket over, just to keep wet out), and a Butia as well.  Once I get my 5G JxB in the ground come the Spring, that will be protected the same manner, but besides those three, nothing is protected.  Weather comes in cycles and we'll be gleefully cheering on mild winters at the next ten year warming cycle.  Seems like I missed the last one when I was living back up North, and when we moved it ushered in a cold cycle, hah.  This is zone 8 after all!

That being said, I am so tired of winter (albeit ours is nothing compared to Chicago), and want Spring.  My bees were out in crazy force on Saturday foraging and bringing in pollen, and one of my apples had just leafed out on Saturday as well and had some blossoms which I'm sure are fried.  We'll see come Thursday...   Stay warm everyone, and don't drive.

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Right now there's some ice here and there but not too bad though but enough to kill a palm that shouldn't be planted outside of your cold hardiness zone like what I did , if you leave it unprotected.  I've planted all my palms last year , they're still juveniles and barely established except my Washingtonia filifera that I planted in late October.  My most vulnerable palm is a phoenix robellini and it just made it through the last artic winter we had in December with just a bucket over located on the southeast side of the house.  It definitely took a beating and I already had two spear pulls . My syagrus romanzoffiana already growing strong quite a few inches since December but with this ice storm I don't know what will happen.  Whatever doesn't make it won't be replanted.  If winters are continuing like this in future I might give up on fast growing palms and only stick with sabal /wash.filifera.  I'm tired of seeing dead or fried palms here in Texas where I only get to enjoy a full crown after the end of a growing season , sometimes it takes two years for a palm to grow a full crown back. Texas isn't a perfect place to grow none native palms as I have noticed. Climate is so unpredictable.  

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It's been below freezing over 24 hrs and have awoken to quite the sleet, ice storm. Now I get to be full of anxiety if power goes out!

Yeah, there's a reason Texas, except for the coasts, doesn't have a lot of big palms or exotics. Our position on the globe guarantees we

will be hit by these arctic blasts. Sure, the globe is warming, but we still get the massive freezes. I remember a show in the Eighties predicted

that it will be so warm that NYC will have palm trees in fifty years. I think this prediction can be safely forgotten!

Sabals are (at least) a very satisfying palm. Minors are indestructible and the other species can grow well here. Washys are too prickly and big to

mess with up here in Dallas. Most of them were wiped out last couple of winters so this year will prob take a few more.😑

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1 minute ago, palmnut-fry said:

It's been below freezing over 24 hrs and have awoken to quite the sleet, ice storm. Now I get to be full of anxiety if power goes out!

Yeah, there's a reason Texas, except for the coasts, doesn't have a lot of big palms or exotics. Our position on the globe guarantees we

will be hit by these arctic blasts. Sure, the globe is warming, but we still get the massive freezes. I remember a show in the Eighties predicted

that it will be so warm that NYC will have palm trees in fifty years. I think this prediction can be safely forgotten!

Sabals are (at least) a very satisfying palm. Minors are indestructible and the other species can grow well here. Washys are too prickly and big to

mess with up here in Dallas. Most of them were wiped out last couple of winters so this year will prob take a few more.😑

Well good thing for us is there are so many Sabals to keep one very busy here.  Some are leaf hardier than others, but aside from a 2021, these events, and this winter don't cause major disruptions aside some from some ugly looking fronds for a few months.  Our heat and rain provide for these to recover quite nicely.  I'm growing a TON of Sabals here, and documenting it all so we will see real world results of my obsession.

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Subscribe to my YouTube here  to follow along my Sabal obsession....  Quite possibly one of the biggest Sabal plantings in the US.

Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/sabalking.texas

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We share a lot of the same temperatures and latitude with Florida but we don't have a mountain range that keeps those severe artic blasts away from us. Most parts in Florida are protected by the Appalachian mountains they do get freezes but normally not as severe , frequent and long as in Texas that's why you see a lot more mature Queen palms in Jacksonville (9a) for instance.  I moved from Germany to my wife here in San Antonio thought I could kiss goodbye to winter freezes but I guess I still live at the wrong place 😄. Just checked the weather forecast for tomorrow and we'll be between 31 and 33 degrees with freezing rain in-between urghhh. 

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14 hours ago, palmnut-fry said:

Yeah, good luck Watts, more like Thurs for you guys. We'll be lucky to see barely above by then.

How is the NWS so far off with this? The very day before they had DFW at barely freezing and no precip to 

a bloody winter storm warning this morn! My gawd, get a better forecast model, man! 

I grumply put on my heavy coat, gloves and insulated socks and bundled everything up ( as snot runs down nose) LOL

Geez, if it's not a damn oven it's the bloody North Pole!

Hang in there rest of country, The East is about to get really freakin cold. Feel sorry for any newly planted babies out East, tho

it looks like Florida will be spared this time.

2021FreezeSabalB.jpeg

you're right, yesterday morning they were calling for us to be just above freezing Wednesday, now saying maybe right at 32* on wednesday.. of course Thursday on the weather keeps rising and next week 50-60s. Thats the worst part to me is the crazy swings...which im sure before Feb is over us north of you will have anther swing in temps that other way {fingers crossed} maybe not. good luck and glad you go them bundled up..snot and all haha

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Youtube - Okpalms 

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7 minutes ago, MarcusH said:

We share a lot of the same temperatures and latitude with Florida but we don't have a mountain range that keeps those severe artic blasts away from us. Most parts in Florida are protected by the Appalachian mountains they do get freezes but normally not as severe , frequent and long as in Texas that's why you see a lot more mature Queen palms in Jacksonville (9a) for instance.  I moved from Germany to my wife here in San Antonio thought I could kiss goodbye to winter freezes but I guess I still live at the wrong place 😄. Just checked the weather forecast for tomorrow and we'll be between 31 and 33 degrees with freezing rain in-between urghhh. 

Lots of folks don’t think the Appalachian chain protect parts of the SE. it does to some degree, sure it isn’t the Rockies but it does offer some protection. If the cold air is shallow, such as the 2021 Texas freeze you could litterly watch the cold be diverted down Alabama and parts of wester Georgia on the weather models. Atlanta Georgia is actually slightly further south then Columbia, but we don’t get nearly as cold even though Atlanta has a much larger UHI footprint. 

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Enough freezing rain can cause quite a bit of plant damage to everything.  us TN folk see that every now and then.  1" of ice is pretty devastating on stuff.  You can wrap a rag or frost cloth around the spear to mitigate ice into spear areas of vulnerable palms.

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YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@tntropics - 60+ In-ground 7A palms - (Sabal) minor(7 large + 27 seedling size, 3 dwarf),  brazoria(1) , birmingham(4), etonia (1) louisiana(5), palmetto (1), riverside (1),  (Trachycarpus) fortunei(7), wagnerianus(1),  Rhapidophyllum hystrix(7),  15' Mule-Butia x Syagrus(1),  Blue Butia capitata(1) +Tons of tropical plants.  Recent Yearly Lows -1F, 12F, 11F, 18F, 16F, 3F, 3F, 6F, 3F, 1F, 16F, 17F, 6F, 8F

 

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I'm still waiting for that Global Warming they called for back in the 70's so I can start growing queens.. Can't wait

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Subscribe to my YouTube here  to follow along my Sabal obsession....  Quite possibly one of the biggest Sabal plantings in the US.

Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/sabalking.texas

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55 minutes ago, Sabal King said:

I'm still waiting for that Global Warming they called for back in the 70's so I can start growing queens.. Can't wait

The term "global warming" is part of climate change, much of which exhibits increased weather instability. Be careful what you wish for.

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2 hours ago, RJ said:

Lots of folks don’t think the Appalachian chain protect parts of the SE. it does to some degree, sure it isn’t the Rockies but it does offer some protection. If the cold air is shallow, such as the 2021 Texas freeze you could litterly watch the cold be diverted down Alabama and parts of wester Georgia on the weather models. Atlanta Georgia is actually slightly further south then Columbia, but we don’t get nearly as cold even though Atlanta has a much larger 

The Appalachian ,state's narrow landmass ,the Gulf and Atlantic definitely helps to keep severe freezes away from Florida except NW FL doesn't get that much of those benefits.  Here in Texas we only have the Gulf that kind of helps sometimes but isn't strong enough to keep us away from severe freezes in winter.  Take a look at South Padre Island and Tampa. Almost same latitude just by less than 2 degrees off sharing the same hardiness zone 9b/10a but SPI experiences more severe cold fronts than Tampa.  The geographical location surrounded by water ,narrow landmass and the Appalachian mountain range definitely benefits Florida a lot more than us in Texas .

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2 hours ago, Sabal King said:

I'm still waiting for that Global Warming they called for back in the 70's so I can start growing queens.. Can't wait

There's no accurate model that can predict future climates for our regions or globally and how it has an impact.  There's no thermostat where we can change the temperature not even NWS can't predict an accurate hurricane season in fact their predictions were off big time last hurricane season with only a couple of major hurricanes and a few other storms in the Gulf and Atlantic regions . What we know is that we're still coming out of the ice age and growing cities definitely increases local temperatures.  I'm not concerned about sea level rising or so called point of no return to fight climate change. So far mother earth knows how to heal itself and what we see on the news is just a mismanagement of humans building homes in regions that should be left alone.  Also I want to mention that cold hardiness zones are average temperatures within 30 years which means you can still experience one or two zones lower in winter.  There's no guarantee.  

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Correct, there is currently no global warming. Anyone who says they can predict long term climate either way when we cannot even forecast 24 hours into the future should be dismissed out of hand. 

image.png.d2829e9046899e1840c0a2a369785228.png

16 minutes ago, MarcusH said:

There's no accurate model that can predict future climates for our regions or globally and how it has an impact.  There's no thermostat where we can change the temperature not even NWS can't predict an accurate hurricane season in fact their predictions were off big time last hurricane season with only a couple of major hurricanes and a few other storms in the Gulf and Atlantic regions . What we know is that we're still coming out of the ice age and growing cities definitely increases local temperatures.  I'm not concerned about sea level rising or so called point of no return to fight climate change. So far mother earth knows how to heal itself and what we see on the news is just a mismanagement of humans building homes in regions that should be left alone.  Also I want to mention that cold hardiness zones are average temperatures within 30 years which means you can still experience one or two zones lower in winter.  There's no guarantee.  

 

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I also assume that us palm tree lovers get too comfortable with a few decades of mild winters thinking this will continue but this decade 2020s reminds us that it still can get cold just enough to take out a lot of palms that shouldn't be planted in our regions.  For long term survival plant something that can handle a cold hardiness zone lower because you never know .  There's nothing wrong with zone pushing in your yard but it hurts me when I see our city or businesses planting the same palms that mostly died in February 2021 again.  Don't push a zone if no one is going to protect it. Washingtonia robusta is not a great choice for SoCen Texas.  I'm pushing an entire zone with my Queen palm but at least they aren't hard to protect no thorns to deal with unlike Washies that wants to cut open my arms each time I have my hands between the fronds.  

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8 minutes ago, FMG said:

Correct, there is currently no global warming. Anyone who says they can predict long term climate either way when we cannot even forecast 24 hours into the future should be dismissed out of hand. 

image.png.d2829e9046899e1840c0a2a369785228.png

 

 

Careful. You are opening up a can of worms here. I also didn't realise you could fit so much stupidity into just two sentences. Like you cannot definitively say that there is no climate change or global warming taking place. There is plenty of evidence to show that things are warming up, especially during summer, while I agree that there is also conflicting evidence to suggest cold outbreaks are becoming more severe. I understand the argument from both sides. However the overall picture is that things are gradually warming still, if you look at everything evenly and don't just cherry pick the odd freeze here and there, or a particular station/location that just happens to be cooler than most others.

At the very least, you should keep an open mind about it. Deciding that something just doesn't exist the way you have is moronic. 8 of the top 10 hottest days on record in the UK have occurred since 2003 in records going back to the 1600's. Before the year 2003, it had never even reached 100F in the UK. Since then, 4 separate summers have reached 100F, with some even seeing consecutive days above 100F. Last summer reached 105F. So there is clearly evidence of things warming up, at least over here. Winters aren't anywhere near as severe either. You have probably had a decade or two of very mild winters where you are and now that 1-2 abnormally cold ones have finally come along, you are reading into it too much and saying climate change isn't real. Whereas you need to look at the bigger picture.

 

2 hours ago, Sabal King said:

I'm still waiting for that Global Warming they called for back in the 70's so I can start growing queens.. Can't wait

There weren't 30+ footer CIDP's and Washingtonia in London during the 1970's. Just saying...

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Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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We don’t have to turn this thread into a debate on global warming. The point is existing “science” on climate change and projections relating thereto have been laughably wrong for 50 years. Moving the goalposts and talking about “change” instead of warming and ambiguous and unprovable metrics like “more extreme weather” does not change that fact.

Edited by FMG
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28 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

 

Careful. You are opening up a can of worms here. I also didn't realise you could fit so much stupidity into just two sentences. Like you cannot definitively say that there is no climate change or global warming taking place. There is plenty of evidence to show that things are warming up, especially during summer, while I agree that there is also conflicting evidence to suggest cold outbreaks are becoming more severe. I understand the argument from both sides. However the overall picture is that things are gradually warming still, if you look at everything evenly and don't just cherry pick the odd freeze here and there, or a particular station/location that just happens to be cooler than most others.

At the very least, you should keep an open mind about it. Deciding that something just doesn't exist the way you have is moronic. 8 of the top 10 hottest days on record in the UK have occurred since 2003 in records going back to the 1600's. Before the year 2003, it had never even reached 100F in the UK. Since then, 4 separate summers have reached 100F, with some even seeing consecutive days above 100F. Last summer reached 105F. So there is clearly evidence of things warming up, at least over here. Winters aren't anywhere near as severe either. You have probably had a decade or two of very mild winters where you are and now that 1-2 abnormally cold ones have finally come along, you are reading into it too much and saying climate change isn't real. Whereas you need to look at the bigger picture.

 

There weren't 30+ footer CIDP's and Washingtonia in London during the 1970's. Just saying...

28 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

 

Careful. You are opening up a can of worms here. I also didn't realise you could fit so much stupidity into just two sentences. Like you cannot definitively say that there is no climate change or global warming taking place. There is plenty of evidence to show that things are warming up, especially during summer, while I agree that there is also conflicting evidence to suggest cold outbreaks are becoming more severe. I understand the argument from both sides. However the overall picture is that things are gradually warming still, if you look at everything evenly and don't just cherry pick the odd freeze here and there, or a particular station/location that just happens to be cooler than most others.

At the very least, you should keep an open mind about it. Deciding that something just doesn't exist the way you have is moronic. 8 of the top 10 hottest days on record in the UK have occurred since 2003 in records going back to the 1600's. Before the year 2003, it had never even reached 100F in the UK. Since then, 4 separate summers have reached 100F, with some even seeing consecutive days above 100F. Last summer reached 105F. So there is clearly evidence of things warming up, at least over here. Winters aren't anywhere near as severe either. You have probably had a decade or two of very mild winters where you are and now that 1-2 abnormally cold ones have finally come along, you are reading into it too much and saying climate change isn't real. Whereas you need to look at the bigger picture.

 

There weren't 30+ footer CIDP's and Washingtonia in London during the 1970's. Just saying...

 

We don’t have to turn this thread into a debate on global warming. The point is existing “science” on climate change and projections relating thereto have been laughably wrong for 50 years. Moving the goalposts and talking about “change” instead of warming and ambiguous and unprovable metrics like “more extreme weather” does not change that fact.

 

 
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2 hours ago, MarcusH said:

The Appalachian ,state's narrow landmass ,the Gulf and Atlantic definitely helps to keep severe freezes away from Florida except NW FL doesn't get that much of those benefits.  Here in Texas we only have the Gulf that kind of helps sometimes but isn't strong enough to keep us away from severe freezes in winter.  Take a look at South Padre Island and Tampa. Almost same latitude just by less than 2 degrees off sharing the same hardiness zone 9b/10a but SPI experiences more severe cold fronts than Tampa.  The geographical location surrounded by water ,narrow landmass and the Appalachian mountain range definitely benefits Florida a lot more than us in Texas .

Record lows are fairly similar in Texas and N FL/GA at a similar latitude and distance from water. It's only when you get into peninsular FL that FL warms up significantly at comparable latitude (south of say Gainesville or St. Augustine). The Appalachians have some effect but it mostly depends on the trajectory of the cold. Feb 2021 funneled most of the cold into Texas. Jan 1985 brought single digits to Jacksonville and Tallahasee with only marginal impact to Texas. Houston and Jacksonville are very similar overall with various microclimates created by Galveston Bay and the St Johns (plus UHI). 

SPI is actually quite a bit further south than Tampa, nonetheless I don't think the differences are that great. SPI has only dropped below 30F on a total of 3 occassions (Feb 2011, Feb 2021, Dec 2022) in the last 33 years. Now places like Clearwater and St Petersburg are definitely more protected from cold due to more water moderation. 

Guess I'll lighten up this thread with a pic of the part of TX that isn't in the 30s today. Friend in Brownsville sent this, this is after the "2nd lowest" temperature in the last 33 years

 

received_873374643896065.thumb.jpeg.21c804890dd57b9ccf78d261af0f0d6a.jpeg

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Jonathan

Katy, TX (Zone 9a)

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Gentlemen , let's keep it classy no insults please.  We're still talking about palms , cold hardinesses and our cold fronts but we don’t have to prove a point about climate change whether it's man-made or not.  I'm sure we'll be fine. 

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54 minutes ago, FMG said:

We don’t have to turn this thread into a debate on global warming. The point is existing “science” on climate change and projections relating thereto have been laughably wrong for 50 years. Moving the goalposts and talking about “change” instead of warming and ambiguous and unprovable metrics like “more extreme weather” does not change that fact.

Yup we also don't need to attack other people like children

 

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Lucas

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8 minutes ago, Xenon said:
9 minutes ago, Xenon said:

Record lows are fairly similar in Texas and N FL/GA at a similar latitude and distance from water. It's only when you get into peninsular FL that FL warms up significantly at comparable latitude (south of say Gainesville or St. Augustine). The Appalachians have some effect but it mostly depends on the trajectory of the cold. Feb 2021 funneled most of the cold into Texas. Jan 1985 brought single digits to Jacksonville and Tallahasee with only marginal impact to Texas. Houston and Jacksonville are very similar overall with various microclimates created by Galveston Bay and the St Johns (plus UHI). 

SPI is actually quite a bit further south than Tampa, nonetheless I don't think the differences are that great. SPI has only dropped below 30F on a total of 3 occassions (Feb 2011, Feb 2021, Dec 2022) in the last 33 years. Now places like Clearwater and St Petersburg are definitely more protected from cold due to more water moderation. 

Guess I'll lighten up this thread with a pic of the part of TX that isn't in the 30s today. Friend in Brownsville sent this, this is after the "2nd lowest" temperature in the last 33 years

 

received_873374643896065.thumb.jpeg.21c804890dd57b9ccf78d261af0f0d6a.jpeg

The difference is that Florida gets less amount of severe freezes in 30 years unlike the entire state of Texas that gets them at least once in a decade . I do have a understanding of why that is happening.  SPI and Tampa are less than 140 miles apart in latitude and share the same altitude . DID I say it right , sorry English isn't my native language.  Texas is more exposed to artic winter where Florida works like a UHI thanks to the amount of water in and around if you look at data. There's a reason why CenFlo, NE FL have more success in growing Queen palms (3 decades and older) for instance.  I choose to mention this palm for this discussion because it’s cold hardy but not so much. There're plenty of Queens in Jacksonville and this city isn't far away from CHZ 8b.  San Antonio is 8b/9a and there are no Queen palms here. They died 2 years ago.  I know they were here before 21 but from what I've seen no 50ft tall ones either.  Let's face the fact that NE, Central and South Florida have a better climate for growing palms with longer survival rate with less freezes all together even we share the same Cold Hardiness Zones. 

 

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1 hour ago, UK_Palms said:

 

 

There weren't 30+ footer CIDP's and Washingtonia in London during the 1970's. Just saying...

I also prefer a gentle debate on this topic without strong words.

As much as i love every picture of palms in London it can also easily be dismissed as evidence for global warming and used as proof that heavily built up area’s create higher temps in summer and winter.

Notwitstanding the fact that summertemps were a bit higher over the past years, large parts of the UK suffered severe damage to cordyline’s this winter.

Yet in the center of London potted howea’s are still green, to me that’s mainly UHI.

 

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I kept it relatively civil if people are referring to my comment. If someone is suddenly going to come out with a blanket statement like "there is currently no global warming" and then also post up a deceptive, cherry picked chart from a random Antarctic station to mislead people, then I think they can rightfully expect a bit of opposition. I called it out, but I hardly attacked the guy or anything. I just said my piece, called the statement stupid/moronic or whatever. Nothing personal. I also provided a rational reply to it overall. I am sure @FMG is a good guy, with good intentions and an equal enthusiasm for palms, but at the same time certain stuff cannot go unchallenged and maybe people need to grow thicker skin.

I am no lefty or anything either, I can just recognise the obvious warming that we have experienced here and across the globe over the past decade or two especially. A lot of the winter cold that we have seen in recent years is likely just down to a fairly strong and freak La Nina period that has lasted 3 years now. It's even more telling that so many record high temperatures have been seen during those La Nina years as well, when it is supposed to have a cooling effect on many places. Some people just want to ignore the science and throw everything in the trash to suit their agenda however. I have seen it all before. Even if you provided compelling evidence for something (like climate change), they would still dismiss it and stick to their guns.

@Axel Amsterdam The UHI isn't the sole reason for all the large palms in London. I acknowledge that it is obviously a factor, but in conjunction with at least some degree of climate change. Also how do you explain all the palms along the south coast, say in Kent or Essex even, which is almost touching Belgium/Netherlands. There are huge CIDP and Washingtonia there now, yet nothing say 20-30 years ago? Not to mention flowering CIDP and Washingtonia going right up to Scotland almost now? There is barely any UHI in Scarborough at 54N for instance. Those ones in northern England definitely don't add up if there hasn't been much, or any, climate change. Would they have grown there 30 years ago? Or 100 years ago?

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Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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2 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

Careful. You are opening up a can of worms here. I also didn't realise you could fit so much stupidity into just two sentences.

This is exactly how you turn a palm topic into a political statement stick to palms please 

T J 

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T J 

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I am just saying UHI is so strong in London compared to most of inland UK that it is both the warmest place in summer and the least cold place in winter. That’s the main reason for me and not climate change, not saying it isn’t happening just that its not the main reason for palms in London. 

Coastal locations are a different matter as is the case in other parts of the world. The lack of severe cold is clearly correlated with the location of the sea, for essex that means cold air from the east (Holland) will warm up before arriving at the UK coast. So a relatively mild location during colder outbreaks from the continent as it has been for decades. Perhaps a bit milder/warmer overall than years/decades ago but not the main reason for palm plantings, more likely that is correlated to mass availability of CIDP and washies. They already had the green cordylines everywhere so it was just a matter of time people were succesfully growing cheap available other exotics.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Axel Amsterdam
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33 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

I kept it relatively civil if people are referring to my comment. If someone is suddenly going to come out with a blanket statement like "there is currently no global warming" and then also post up a deceptive, cherry picked chart from a random Antarctic station to mislead people, then I think they can rightfully expect a bit of opposition. I called it out, but I hardly attacked the guy or anything. I just said my piece, called the statement stupid/moronic or whatever. Nothing personal. I also provided a rational reply to it overall. I am sure @FMG is a good guy, with good intentions and an equal enthusiasm for palms, but at the same time certain stuff cannot go unchallenged and maybe people need to grow thicker skin.

I am no lefty or anything either, I can just recognise the obvious warming that we have experienced here and across the globe over the past decade or two especially. A lot of the winter cold that we have seen in recent years is likely just down to a fairly strong and freak La Nina period that has lasted 3 years now. It's even more telling that so many record high temperatures have been seen during those La Nina years as well, when it is supposed to have a cooling effect on many places. Some people just want to ignore the science and throw everything in the trash to suit their agenda however. I have seen it all before. Even if you provided compelling evidence for something (like climate change), they would still dismiss it and stick to their guns.

@Axel Amsterdam The UHI isn't the sole reason for all the large palms in London. I acknowledge that it is obviously a factor, but in conjunction with at least some degree of climate change. Also how do you explain all the palms along the south coast, say in Kent or Essex even, which is almost touching Belgium/Netherlands. There are huge CIDP and Washingtonia there now, yet nothing say 20-30 years ago? Not to mention flowering CIDP and Washingtonia going right up to Scotland almost now? There is barely any UHI in Scarborough at 54N for instance. Those ones in northern England definitely don't add up if there hasn't been much, or any, climate change. Would they have grown there 30 years ago? Or 100 years ago?

Go on with the personal attack and anecdotes. I’m in for facts and civil discourse. 
2 data points and it’s the last I’ll post on the matter.

 

1. global (not cherry picked) temp averages are in a down trendimage.thumb.png.ad532303318caea173a3094dc9524a77.pngimage.png.265f5b9e286255969bce584fdc2f0fc7.png

2. severity and frequency of disasters worldwide is also in declineimage.thumb.jpeg.98d35b110306a94079ecba319c158010.jpegimage.jpeg.f87410092cffeb692c621c37efa5f0ab.jpeg

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It's all good people . From my observations after being outside a few times today I would carefully say the ice rain wasn't as severe as expected down here in San Antonio.  A bit of thin ice on the trash can and wherever water has collected but the windchill is definitely bitter cold with February still ahead of us I don't think this was the last time I covered my palms this winter.  If my queen palm survives this winter I'm pretty confident to keep it alive as long as I'm able to protect it.  If that would be the case I'm going to get a second queen. 

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4 hours ago, FMG said:

Correct, there is currently no global warming. Anyone who says they can predict long term climate either way when we cannot even forecast 24 hours into the future should be dismissed out of hand. 

image.png.d2829e9046899e1840c0a2a369785228.png

 

Weird how a place that holds over 95% of the worlds ice is actually getting colder over the last nearly 50 years!  I bet you would never hear this on the evening news.

 

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29 minutes ago, OC2Texaspalmlvr said:

This is exactly how you turn a palm topic into a political statement stick to palms please 

T J 

Why don’t you tell that to the person who instigated the whole debate by bringing climate change up with a blanket statement and posting graphs. I don’t see you telling him to keep the topic on palms. I’m assuming that is because you probably agree with his views, but whatever.

You are right though that we should stick to discussing palms. I should have just bit my tongue earlier. I can also see he has just replied again, and as much as I want to, I am not going to respond otherwise this topic will digress further. My response to him was relevant, but not particularly helpful.

Have a nice day. You too @FMG

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Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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We had a half inch of wet snow this morning. Temperatures have been hovering just above freezing at 36°F / 2°C with a fine misty drizzle (mizzle) most of the afternoon. A warming trend is expected in the next days.

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11 hours ago, Sabal King said:

It could be worse is what I keep reiterating,  and again reinforces why especially in NTX Sabals should be the 90% of what one plants, with some variety around that.  I didn't protect a thing besides my BxJ (threw a frost blanket over, just to keep wet out), and a Butia as well.  Once I get my 5G JxB in the ground come the Spring, that will be protected the same manner, but besides those three, nothing is protected.  Weather comes in cycles and we'll be gleefully cheering on mild winters at the next ten year warming cycle.  Seems like I missed the last one when I was living back up North, and when we moved it ushered in a cold cycle, hah.  This is zone 8 after all!

That being said, I am so tired of winter (albeit ours is nothing compared to Chicago), and want Spring.  My bees were out in crazy force on Saturday foraging and bringing in pollen, and one of my apples had just leafed out on Saturday as well and had some blossoms which I'm sure are fried.  We'll see come Thursday...   Stay warm everyone, and don't drive.

How long have you been raising bees?

As far as fruit trees go, stick with varieties that bloom in mid March or later; the Florida varieties are only good for Houston and San Antonio.

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Light glazing and briefly above 310F at my house, but very little precipitation has fallen, maybe some accumulation will occur tomorrow.

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