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Trachycarpus fortunei, what’s the extremes and locations they’ve survived


Brandon James

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Hey all, I was curious who has Trachycarpus fortunei, and what’s the weather extremes it’s endured.

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I have only had mine go to 11F with the canopy open but the trunk wrapped in lights.  So not really unprotected.  I set 10F as my limit on mature ones to protect.  I hope everyone sticks to experience for their personal palms and ones unprotected.  Cold hardiness is variable as the same exact palm can endure let's say 8F one year but die another year under roughly the same conditions.

Edited by Allen
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YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@tntropics - 60+ In-ground 7A palms - (Sabal) minor(7 large + 27 seedling size, 3 dwarf),  brazoria(1) , birmingham(4), etonia (1) louisiana(5), palmetto (1), riverside (1),  (Trachycarpus) fortunei(7), wagnerianus(1),  Rhapidophyllum hystrix(7),  15' Mule-Butia x Syagrus(1),  Blue Butia capitata(1) +Tons of tropical plants.  Recent Yearly Lows -1F, 12F, 11F, 18F, 16F, 3F, 3F, 6F, 3F, 1F, 16F, 17F, 6F, 8F

 

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-10f Rio Rancho NM 2011

Unprotected 

Total defoliation 

IMG_20230107_133336_HDR.jpg

Edited by jwitt
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1 hour ago, jwitt said:

-10f Rio Rancho NM 2011

Unprotected 

Total defoliation 

What size was the palm in 2011 and did it have snow cover or any other cover?  IMHO I really don't think it would live at the current size thru -10F again

YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@tntropics - 60+ In-ground 7A palms - (Sabal) minor(7 large + 27 seedling size, 3 dwarf),  brazoria(1) , birmingham(4), etonia (1) louisiana(5), palmetto (1), riverside (1),  (Trachycarpus) fortunei(7), wagnerianus(1),  Rhapidophyllum hystrix(7),  15' Mule-Butia x Syagrus(1),  Blue Butia capitata(1) +Tons of tropical plants.  Recent Yearly Lows -1F, 12F, 11F, 18F, 16F, 3F, 3F, 6F, 3F, 1F, 16F, 17F, 6F, 8F

 

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5 hours ago, Allen said:

What size was the palm in 2011 and did it have snow cover or any other cover?  IMHO I really don't think it would live at the current size thru -10F again

It was about a foot tall, just starting to trunk. Less than 2" snow.  Also have a med palm that survived, although it did lose 1 trunk.  No coverings.

I did not expect any survivors, areawide. 

But other survivors exist, unprotected from the same event. 

In fact I watched 3 survive a colder event in the late 1970's. 

 

Edited by jwitt
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Probably the records were set in some unknown Nepalese, North Indian, or Tibetan village or forest we never heard of. Probably with a Takil or Nainital related variant.

In cultivation, Bulgarian trachys are sought after for having survived extreme winters.

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I’ve protected mine here in maine, because I’m zone 6b usually but some winters I’m zone 7. It’s survived the last four winters from temps down to -5 outside the green house and inside it was still 2 degrees f. No troubles or loss of fronds. The sabal minor I added that was unprotected last winter made it thru with frond damage but regrew last summer with a few surviving fronds. I hope that after many winters with allowing some extremes and then protecting the palm it will slowly become more hardy and also endure the cold moisture we have here but it hasn’t seemed to be bothered by the cold air (I open it up after most storms so one side is exposed to the elements. D97D79E9-FCFB-4B63-983F-391118CA1B4C.thumb.jpeg.4ce1f63cb0d96a821fbd214c50688960.jpeg

december 2019


D41DF127-93EE-45FC-B072-53FEACB19243.thumb.jpeg.f218ad805481c9c1e73e3c55128af936.jpeg

may 2020

C64C2BEA-DD63-4A37-9216-0A5FEE59733A.thumb.png.7aef01bdd05aaf92c5fa2a43a4c78dc6.png

January 2023

 

sabal minor A6CBFB53-219C-4DA9-A36E-B8256224C637.thumb.jpeg.8a45d2dac84950614312804ade36e24c.jpeg61ADF1FE-8671-41A4-A67A-E0C022ECBB2E.thumb.jpeg.69cca5d0b88e93736c05352d75a7eb8b.jpeg9447981F-419A-4752-A9E8-F657AE21F717.thumb.jpeg.dc24a49cb84769233faf3009878d5fe0.jpeg

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7 hours ago, Zeni said:

Probably the records were set in some unknown Nepalese, North Indian, or Tibetan village or forest we never heard of. Probably with a Takil or Nainital related variant.

In cultivation, Bulgarian trachys are sought after for having survived extreme winters.

Those bulgarian fortunei are just as hardy as a "normal" ones.....just some sale trick......about takil....from what I have seen so far serious leafdamage starts at around -10°C...much less hardy then fortunei!

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16 minutes ago, kristof p said:

Those bulgarian fortunei are just as hardy as a "normal" ones.....just some sale trick......about takil....from what I have seen so far serious leafdamage starts at around -10°C...much less hardy then fortunei!

Trachys, even from the same cultivar, don't all have the exact same hardiness. Like people they have slightly different genetics. Since those Bulgarian ones descend from known extreme cold survivors there could be some genetic truth to it.

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1 hour ago, kristof p said:

Those bulgarian fortunei are just as hardy as a "normal" ones.....just some sale trick......about takil....from what I have seen so far serious leafdamage starts at around -10°C...much less hardy then fortunei!

100%!!  I'm so sick of hearing about those Bulgarian Trachys.  FYI they all died - not so hardy after all.

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4 hours ago, Zeni said:

Trachys, even from the same cultivar, don't all have the exact same hardiness. Like people they have slightly different genetics. Since those Bulgarian ones descend from known extreme cold survivors there could be some genetic truth to it.

Yess, but don't expect miracles...maybe you will gain a degrees or 2 more at most and even then, among those offsprings, a lot of them will also have the genes to show less hardiness. It is a very long and slow process I believe to eventually get one who shows a stable differance in hardiness. It makes me kind of think where the heck T. fortunei originated from originally.

Edited by kristof p
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3 hours ago, Chester B said:

100%!!  I'm so sick of hearing about those Bulgarian Trachys.  FYI they all died - not so hardy after all.

I have a seed sourced bulgaria that had the fronds fried at the tips where they stuck above the protection inside covered protection at -1F.  In other words the frond would have been toast at temps well above -1F probably 5F or more.

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YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@tntropics - 60+ In-ground 7A palms - (Sabal) minor(7 large + 27 seedling size, 3 dwarf),  brazoria(1) , birmingham(4), etonia (1) louisiana(5), palmetto (1), riverside (1),  (Trachycarpus) fortunei(7), wagnerianus(1),  Rhapidophyllum hystrix(7),  15' Mule-Butia x Syagrus(1),  Blue Butia capitata(1) +Tons of tropical plants.  Recent Yearly Lows -1F, 12F, 11F, 18F, 16F, 3F, 3F, 6F, 3F, 1F, 16F, 17F, 6F, 8F

 

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@kristof p @Chester B @Allen

Could it be that the parental plants do have higher cold hardiness, but due to 'inbreeding' and reversion to the mean the trait doesn't reproduce?

I guess it takes multiple generations of selective breeding and controlling for genetic diversity for one to get higher hardiness in a palm.

Maybe a wild variety of Trachys or an established cultivar with high genetic diversity who survived extreme temperatures are a safer bet than the cultivated fluke Bulgarian ones.

Edited by Zeni
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I had 9 hours under 10F with a low of 6F , and my Trachys had varying levels of of damage . I think my Nainital came out best and then 

then the  Taylor Forms had way more than I thought they would  . My worst performing Trachy was an unknown box store purchase , and my green form Princeps was frond damaged too, but should be fine   . They all survived fine but the key to growing and enjoying  palms is to have them looking good , so much of the growing season will be growing out of that damage .

Will

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1 hour ago, Will Simpson said:

I had 9 hours under 10F with a low of 6F , and my Trachys had varying levels of of damage . I think my Nainital came out best and then 

then the  Taylor Forms had way more than I thought they would  . My worst performing Trachy was an unknown box store purchase , and my green form Princeps was frond damaged too, but should be fine   . They all survived fine but the key to growing and enjoying  palms is to have them looking good , so much of the growing season will be growing out of that damage .

Will

We had two winters with minimums of 20°F, so we were spoiled. Everything looked pretty good. One night at 5° made a big difference.

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Not all Trachycarpus fortunei are of equally winter hardiness. I lost a 4' / 15gal specimen last year and a second one is hanging on in rough shape. Others in the area are currently in fine form.

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On 1/27/2023 at 10:49 AM, Chester B said:

100%!!  I'm so sick of hearing about those Bulgarian Trachys.  FYI they all died - not so hardy after all.

Are palms from a cold place hardier genetically or are they just "used" to cold wheater? 

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10 hours ago, Palmfarmer said:

Are palms from a cold place hardier genetically or are they just "used" to cold wheater? 

One could write pages to answer this adequately.  I'll try to make it quick.  Hopefully this makes sense.

Exposing a plant to cold weather, or people for that matter will cause a short-term adaptation.  These are temporary changes that come about to deal with a situation, with no long term changes (ie genetic change). So in effect this does nothing to make a palm more hardy to colder temperatures.  There are hard limits as to what they can handle.  If you repeatedly get exposed to cold weather you will be able to tolerate it better, but always to a point.  

So palms that are at the extremes of their natural range may have a long term adaptation in place.  This is where some small changes in their genetics allow them to tolerate In this case a little more cold than those growing in a more typical set of environmental conditions lets say.  These changes to these segments of the population would most likely occur over a longer term (at least in human timeframes), not in a generation or two (but this can occur).  There are true physiological limits placed on palms that will prevent them from ever being able to live in the truly cold climates.

 

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I think the closest you can get to "adapt" or "modify" palms genetically to a location is by getting thousands of seeds preferably from as many mothers as possible. From as many different natural habitats as possible. Then grow all of them in your climate outside from a young age on and weed out what is not surviving. At this stage you have your toughest plants. If you really want to take it further you could let them grow up to flowering age and then let them pollinate and seed again and repeat the process. With most palms you can do this 2-3 times max. in a human lifetime. But this adaptation only works with palms that are already very adaptable from their genetics or in a climate that is just borderline to their's so you're actually just picking out the genes that make them more adapted to your local factors that are differing from their natural occurence like wet cold, dry cold etc.. It's still worth it using this method with palms that are fairly fast growing because as you often see in this forum some species really surprise with their adaptation. Imo the easiest and best way is to grow a batch of seeds in your climate and pick the hardest ones. It doesn't work all the time but it surely does very often.

As it comes to hardiness of T. fortuntei I can only tell what's the coldest they have seen in my garden. A small trunking one has seen temperatures down to what I think would be 10° in Fahrenheit. Youg seedlings take damage at around 20°? Fahrenheit. T. takils are much much weaker even at a young age. But they are more drought tolerant.

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Yes it's me Hortulanus 😂

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On 1/30/2023 at 7:06 PM, Hortulanus said:

I think the closest you can get to "adapt" or "modify" palms genetically to a location is by getting thousands of seeds preferably from as many mothers as possible. From as many different natural habitats as possible. Then grow all of them in your climate outside from a young age on and weed out what is not surviving. At this stage you have your toughest plants. If you really want to take it further you could let them grow up to flowering age and then let them pollinate and seed again and repeat the process. With most palms you can do this 2-3 times max. in a human lifetime. But this adaptation only works with palms that are already very adaptable from their genetics or in a climate that is just borderline to their's so you're actually just picking out the genes that make them more adapted to your local factors that are differing from their natural occurence like wet cold, dry cold etc.. It's still worth it using this method with palms that are fairly fast growing because as you often see in this forum some species really surprise with their adaptation. Imo the easiest and best way is to grow a batch of seeds in your climate and pick the hardest ones. It doesn't work all the time but it surely does very often.

As it comes to hardiness of T. fortuntei I can only tell what's the coldest they have seen in my garden. A small trunking one has seen temperatures down to what I think would be 10° in Fahrenheit. Youg seedlings take damage at around 20°? Fahrenheit. T. takils are much much weaker even at a young age. But they are more drought tolerant.

I believe this is what causes differences between filifera and robusta. Likely same species but through migration and adaptive radiation, different phenotypes thrive in different environments.

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7 hours ago, SeanK said:

I believe this is what causes differences between filifera and robusta. Likely same species but through migration and adaptive radiation, different phenotypes thrive in different environments.

Yes that's probably what happend over long periods of times. Especially Washingtonias can give one that impression. Palm tree genealogy would be an interesting subject LOl. Way more information about their heritage and how their ancestors looked.

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Yes it's me Hortulanus 😂

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I remember about 15 years ago takils being lauded as some kind of miracle breed that could take much more cold than Fortunei.  It seems experience since then has shown it to be nonsense.

Where I live there is no threat to fortunei, our record low is approximately -10ºC/14ºF.  Where I used to live in southern Oregon we planted quite a few of them (some labelled as takil but I've never fully trusted that) and they have been completely fine through most winters seeing teens, and 1-2 zone 7 winters including nearly 0ºF in 2009.  I believe there was a little bit of damage that year but no losses.

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Manchester, Lancashire, England

53.4ºN, 2.2ºW, 65m AMSL

Köppen climate Cfb | USDA hardiness zone 9a

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Winner winner, chicken dinner?

-11f

Below zero again the following fall!

-1f

Picture from last November. 

Corrales NM

Screenshot_20230203-093950.png

Screenshot_20230203-094245.png

Screenshot_20230203-094204.png

Edited by jwitt
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@Hortulanus @Chester B

Most likely the genes responsible for cold hardiness in palms aren't all too complex. I think they can be discovered by comparing whole genomes of closely related palm subspecies and contrasting hardy varieties vs their tropical cousins (e.g. Jubaea vs Syagrus, Canariensis vs Roebelenii, or Fortunei vs Martianus & Latisectus.). Then when discovered they can be inserted like they do with agricultural crops.

I think this will be mapped out by the 2040s at the latest, but most likely as the climate crisis intensives and by that time Butias will be fully hardy in Northwestern Europe I think GMO palms will not be allowed in Western countries. Maybe crazy Russians will experiment with it and try GMO palms.

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4 hours ago, Zeni said:

@Hortulanus @Chester B

Most likely the genes responsible for cold hardiness in palms aren't all too complex. I think they can be discovered by comparing whole genomes of closely related palm subspecies and contrasting hardy varieties vs their tropical cousins (e.g. Jubaea vs Syagrus, Canariensis vs Roebelenii, or Fortunei vs Martianus & Latisectus.). Then when discovered they can be inserted like they do with agricultural crops.

I think this will be mapped out by the 2040s at the latest, but most likely as the climate crisis intensives and by that time Butias will be fully hardy in Northwestern Europe I think GMO palms will not be allowed in Western countries. Maybe crazy Russians will experiment with it and try GMO palms.

I think that they are not complicated at all but somebody has to invest A LOT of money into this and even then it might not work right away. Genetically modified plants aren't new to us but still even if things are not complex on paper they can be in real life. We know all the processes of humans aging and dieing for a while now but we're still not doing it, even though we probably already could... I think it's an interesting subject but I also think that they would get banned specially in Europe.

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Yes it's me Hortulanus 😂

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11 minutes ago, Hortulanus said:

I think that they are not complicated at all but somebody has to invest A LOT of money into this and even then it might not work right away. Genetically modified plants aren't new to us but still even if things are not complex on paper they can be in real life. We know all the processes of humans aging and dieing for a while now but we're still not doing it, even though we probably already could... I think it's an interesting subject but I also think that they would get banned specially in Europe.

Maybe a Butia Odorata or Butia Eriospatha which gets genetic modification with Jubaea Chilensis cold hardiness may get the green light in EU as Butia fruits are agricultural products. Maybe also wet tolerant Phoenix Dactyliferas. Apparently Trachys and Phoenix are related, so potentially Trachy genes can be inserted in Phoenix subspecies, lol.

But purely ornamental palms, probably never be allowed to be genetically tinkered with, my guess.

A.I could also speed up genomics discoveries as it can detect stuff much faster than humans. We are living in strange times.

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2 minutes ago, Zeni said:

Maybe a Butia Odorata or Butia Eriospatha which gets genetic modification with Jubaea Chilensis cold hardiness may get the green light in EU as Butia fruits are agricultural products. Maybe also wet tolerant Phoenix Dactyliferas. Apparently Trachys and Phoenix are related, so potentially Trachy genes can be inserted in Phoenix subspecies, lol.

But purely ornamental palms, probably never be allowed to be genetically tinkered with, my guess.

A.I could also speed up genomics discoveries as it can detect stuff much faster than humans. We are living in strange times.

All not so unrealistic. But there is already a wet tolerant P. dactylifera... P. canariensis 😂 Jokes aside this would be interesting but I've already thought about stuff like this when I started with palms around 15 years ago.

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Yes it's me Hortulanus 😂

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34 minutes ago, Zeni said:

Maybe a Butia Odorata or Butia Eriospatha which gets genetic modification with Jubaea Chilensis cold hardiness may get the g wereen light in EU as Butia fruits are agricultural products. Maybe also wet tolerant Phoenix Dactyliferas. Apparently Trachys and Phoenix are related, so potentially Trachy genes can be inserted in Phoenix subspecies, lol.

But purely ornamental palms, probably never be allowed to be genetically tinkered with, my guess.

A.I could also speed up genomics discoveries as it can detect stuff much faster than humans. We are living in strange times.

Other than genetically modified palms getting seeds from plants grown and tried in other parts of northern western Europe might also create hardier palms. I wonder what the hardiness on the London Washingtonia seed is like. Maybe not so much cold hardiness but maybe they will grow faster in cooler conditions because of the cool winters here like the Santa Catarina queen palms. @HortulanusFor a wetter tolerant phoenix canariensis and dactylifera, medjool date palms from Florida may be more wet tolerant and phoenix canariensis seed from the Welsh coast! Personally I think phoenix dactylifera like lots of water they just don't like to be sat in water during cold temperatures and they don't like very high humidity. Probably the reason they are ok here but in the south west of the UK they never do well due to much higher rainfall and humidity. Hypothetically if Cocos was able to get genetically modified with another closely related palm so we could grow coconuts here, that would be amazing! For now I will have to stick with trying Beccariophoenix and jubaeopsis!

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9 hours ago, Foxpalms said:

Other than genetically modified palms getting seeds from plants grown and tried in other parts of northern western Europe might also create hardier palms. I wonder what the hardiness on the London Washingtonia seed is like. Maybe not so much cold hardiness but maybe they will grow faster in cooler conditions because of the cool winters here like the Santa Catarina queen palms. @HortulanusFor a wetter tolerant phoenix canariensis and dactylifera, medjool date palms from Florida may be more wet tolerant and phoenix canariensis seed from the Welsh coast! Personally I think phoenix dactylifera like lots of water they just don't like to be sat in water during cold temperatures and they don't like very high humidity. Probably the reason they are ok here but in the south west of the UK they never do well due to much higher rainfall and humidity. Hypothetically if Cocos was able to get genetically modified with another closely related palm so we could grow coconuts here, that would be amazing! For now I will have to stick with trying Beccariophoenix and jubaeopsis!

Cocos nucifera has a strange phylogeny. It's really on its own with no closely related subtropical cousins. I think it will be the most difficult to figure out. Easiest probably what makes Jubaea slightly hardier than Butia or wet-cool tolerance from Canariensis to its desert/oasis Dactylifera cousin.

Imagine growing this, epic! Typically not interested in growing plants for food, but would make an exception if this was possible:

74492361_stock-photo-dates-palm-branches-with-ripe-dates-northern-israel-2219254422.thumb.jpg.428510d30f66803a4f83cd1b76bdd6b8.jpg

 

 

 

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20 minutes ago, Zeni said:

Cocos nucifera has a strange phylogeny. It's really on its own with no closely related subtropical cousins. I think it will be the most difficult to figure out. Easiest probably what makes Jubaea slightly hardier than Butia or wet-cool tolerance from Canariensis to its desert/oasis Dactylifera cousin.

Imagine growing this, epic! Typically not interested in growing plants for food, but would make an exception if this was possible:

74492361_stock-photo-dates-palm-branches-with-ripe-dates-northern-israel-2219254422.thumb.jpg.428510d30f66803a4f83cd1b76bdd6b8.jpg

 

 

 

Butias and jubaea seed in the UK but I don't think phoenix dactylifera ever has. Maybe one day when mine is bigger it might, hopefully! There are coconut-queen palm hybrids so maybe it could be possible.

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11 hours ago, Foxpalms said:

Other than genetically modified palms getting seeds from plants grown and tried in other parts of northern western Europe might also create hardier palms. I wonder what the hardiness on the London Washingtonia seed is like. Maybe not so much cold hardiness but maybe they will grow faster in cooler conditions because of the cool winters here like the Santa Catarina queen palms. @HortulanusFor a wetter tolerant phoenix canariensis and dactylifera, medjool date palms from Florida may be more wet tolerant and phoenix canariensis seed from the Welsh coast! Personally I think phoenix dactylifera like lots of water they just don't like to be sat in water during cold temperatures and they don't like very high humidity. Probably the reason they are ok here but in the south west of the UK they never do well due to much higher rainfall and humidity. Hypothetically if Cocos was able to get genetically modified with another closely related palm so we could grow coconuts here, that would be amazing! For now I will have to stick with trying Beccariophoenix and jubaeopsis!

Yes I commented about this in this thread before. But it already makes a difference if you just get some seeds and grow them in your climate from the get go. In my experience this already makes a huge difference, but of course this is only possible to a certain extend. I'm not trying to grow coconuts from seed an expect them to adapt. 😂 But with palms that are a borderline zone push because of cold or just wet or even dryness this can really work. I have P. dacytlifera 'Iberica'. I'm not sure if I will try it outside because I have limited space and it would be the thrid Phoenix but I wanted to see if they are better for our climates as they at least come from spain and have surely been there for many many generations.

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Yes it's me Hortulanus 😂

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4 minutes ago, Hortulanus said:

Yes I commented about this in this thread before. But it already makes a difference if you just get some seeds and grow them in your climate from the get go. In my experience this already makes a huge difference, but of course this is only possible to a certain extend. I'm not trying to grow coconuts from seed an expect them to adapt. 😂 But with palms that are a borderline zone push because of cold or just wet or even dryness this can really work. I have P. dacytlifera 'Iberica'. I'm not sure if I will try it outside because I have limited space and it would be the thrid Phoenix but I wanted to see if they are better for our climates as they at least come from spain and have surely been there for many many generations.

Yes a coconut isn't just going to adapt to northern Europe at least not for a very very long time. I have a medjool date palm because it's supposed to be the best one suited to humid conditions and the winters here are fairly humid unlike the summers. If one of the grower on here in southern Europe growing coconuts maybe sourced a coconut from the northern coasts of the canary Islands, maybe they would do slightly better and at least cope with the cooler winters better.

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12 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

Yes a coconut isn't just going to adapt to northern Europe at least not for a very very long time. I have a medjool date palm because it's supposed to be the best one suited to humid conditions and the winters here are fairly humid unlike the summers. If one of the grower on here in southern Europe growing coconuts maybe sourced a coconut from the northern coasts of the canary Islands, maybe they would do slightly better and at least cope with the cooler winters better.

Yes but they would also have to adapt to the lack of sunlight and intensity in winter. If not that we would have to get a true tropical climate. But even though I love Coconuts I don't know if we have to grow everything everywhere. It takes a bit away from the charm some regions have. It would certainly be very cool for palm enthusiasts though. I think I have Medjool seeds still waiting to be sown. I just grew 'Mazafati' from seed a couple of weeks ago. Placed them outside and if we'll get some frost the upcoming week I will expose them to some. If the frost is coming then it's going to be a dry frost with lots of sun and daytime heat up. I just grew those seeds from dates in order to experiment with them. I also still need some plants for a dry spot under the roof. The 'Iberica' is already past the seedling stage which would make it a good looking thing in the garden right away. We will see.

Yes it's me Hortulanus 😂

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14 minutes ago, Hortulanus said:

Yes but they would also have to adapt to the lack of sunlight and intensity in winter. If not that we would have to get a true tropical climate. But even though I love Coconuts I don't know if we have to grow everything everywhere. It takes a bit away from the charm some regions have. It would certainly be very cool for palm enthusiasts though. I think I have Medjool seeds still waiting to be sown. I just grew 'Mazafati' from seed a couple of weeks ago. Placed them outside and if we'll get some frost the upcoming week I will expose them to some. If the frost is coming then it's going to be a dry frost with lots of sun and daytime heat up. I just grew those seeds from dates in order to experiment with them. I also still need some plants for a dry spot under the roof. The 'Iberica' is already past the seedling stage which would make it a good looking thing in the garden right away. We will see.

In Germany you could also probably get a larger phoenix dactylifera from Spain if you wanted too. Phoenix dactylifera are one of the more cold hardy phoenix palms but only when they are larger. 

 

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2 hours ago, Foxpalms said:

Butias and jubaea seed in the UK but I don't think phoenix dactylifera ever has. Maybe one day when mine is bigger it might, hopefully! There are coconut-queen palm hybrids so maybe it could be possible.

Do you know any dactylifera’s in the UK besides the small one featured recently on this forum and the mystery phoenix in a London park? I have never seen a trunking dactylifera in the UK.

Edited by Axel Amsterdam
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18 minutes ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

Do you know any dactylifera’s in the UK besides the small one featured recently on this forum and the mystery phoenix in a London park? I have never seen a trunking dactylifera in the UK.

I haven't seen any photos or found any large trunking phoenix dactylifera in London 8ft plus. Phoenix dactylifera' is another palm thats fairly hard to find for sale so most are grown from seed. I am not sure if this one is a theophrasti or dactylifera this probably would have good sized trunk on it but it's not visible on the Google maps image. It's grown lots from 2008 to now.

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Edited by Foxpalms
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Yes that’s the one i meant, that’s a dacty imo. But there aren’t any other dactylifera’s known to me and i have followed this subject for years. I believe dacty’s can grow in London, but not elsewhere and i don’t believe in their greater hardiness, compared to CIDP’s. If that was the case you would see them inland from the cote d’azur and they are absent everywhere 20 to 30 km behind the Mediterranean coastline.

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12 minutes ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

Yes that’s the one i meant, that’s a dacty imo. But there aren’t any other dactylifera’s known to me and i have followed this subject for years. I believe dacty’s can grow in London, but not elsewhere and i don’t believe in their greater hardiness, compared to CIDP’s. If that was the case you would see them inland from the cote d’azur and they are absent everywhere 20 to 30 km behind the Mediterranean coastline.

Yes this is something I definitely agree with. I do think other parts of the south east phoenix dactylifera stands a chance at growing, maybe possibly ventnor, but no one in the south west has been able to grow this palm due to much higher humidity, higher rainfall and cooler summers. Personally I think dactylifera can take lots of cold but only in very dry climates and most of the Mediterranean coast during the winter has fairly high humidity and rainfall.  That mystery phoenix in the park in London I don't have a clue what it is. They should try some in Ventnor and other parts of the south east but for now the only area I know they grow in is London.

Edited by Foxpalms
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