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Would a mule work for me?


ZPalms

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I just wanted to see the general consensus about whether getting a mule palm would be the right choice or if it would be a zone-pushing novelty. I've been reading that its hardiness goes down to about 16F degrees, I know that Butia palms are bulletproof here, I don't know of anyone who has lost a Butia or ever seen one dead. Would that be a good reason to try a mule palm, or would it be more susceptible to damage than a pure Butia?

Edited by ZPalms
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It will die on you without almost yearly protection.  A butia is your hardiest feather palm.  Under 20F can start damaging fronds on mine. 

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YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@tntropics - 60+ In-ground 7A palms - (Sabal) minor(7 large + 27 seedling size, 3 dwarf),  brazoria(1) , birmingham(4), etonia (1) louisiana(5), palmetto (1), riverside (1),  (Trachycarpus) fortunei(7), wagnerianus(1),  Rhapidophyllum hystrix(7),  15' Mule-Butia x Syagrus(1),  Blue Butia capitata(1) +Tons of tropical plants.  Recent Yearly Lows -1F, 12F, 11F, 18F, 16F, 3F, 3F, 6F, 3F, 1F, 16F, 17F, 6F, 8F

 

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What is the coldest temperature you have ever seen in your location during your lifetime? Anything below say 8-10F and you can forget about growing Mules.

The lowest I have experienced here is about 12F in 2010 and 2018, which would still defoliate a Mule, but shouldn’t quite kill it. Anything 10F or below though is risky territory. 

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Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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6 minutes ago, Allen said:

It will die on you without almost yearly protection.  A butia is your hardiest feather palm.  Under 20F can start damaging fronds on mine. 

I suppose I could wrap it which wouldn't be so bad but luckily it doesn't dip below 20 often and if it does its nighttime only and the temperature goes right back up into the 40s but this year it's been so warm that we get into the 50s and 60s sometimes and only 40 or high 30s at night with the dips sometimes

3 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

What is the coldest temperature you have ever seen in your location during your lifetime? Anything below say 8-10F and you can forget about growing Mules.

The lowest I have experienced here is about 12F in 2010 and 2018, which would still defoliate a Mule, but shouldn’t quite kill it. Anything 10F or below though is risky territory. 

How do I check with accurate information? I only can remember maybe 3 years back it went down to 16 but thats not often

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2 minutes ago, ZPalms said:

How do I check with accurate information? I only can remember maybe 3 years back it went down to 16 but thats not often

What is your nearest town or city? Check the long term stats. If every winter month has record lows down to say 0F, I wouldn’t even bother with Mules. If only one winter month, like say January, has gone down to about 0-5F or something, then you may be okay. That would suggest extreme cold snaps are really quite rare and mostly concentrated in January, as opposed to the wider winter in general.

Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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4 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

What is your nearest town or city? Check the long term stats. If every winter month has record lows down to say 0F, I wouldn’t even bother with Mules. If only one winter month, like say January, has gone down to about 0-5F or something, then you may be okay. That would suggest extreme cold snaps are really quite rare and mostly concentrated in January, as opposed to the wider winter in general.

I'm in fayetteville, hope mills, I just don't know what site would give me accurate temperature information, If mules are a pass then that's fine I always got butias unless I'm willing to protect the mule in short intervals because lows hit randomly

Edited by ZPalms
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https://www.weather.gov/wrh/Climate?wfo=rah

 

Monthly Lowest Min Temperature for Fayetteville Area, NC (ThreadEx)
Click column heading to sort ascending, click again to sort descending.
Year
Jan
Feb
Mar
Apr
May
Jun
Jul
Aug
Sep
Oct
Nov
Dec
Annual
Mean 17 22 26 34 46 58 64 62 53 37 26 22 16
Max 25
2023
28
2017
31
2000
39
2010
49
2012
63
2015
70
2016
68
2021
65
2018
43
2021
30
2020
28
2021
25
2023
Min 8
2014
10
2015
18
2009
27
2007
39
2020
52
2014
59
2017
57
2000
46
2022
29
2001
17
2014
15
2022
8
2014
2000 15 22 31 36 45 52 62 57 49 33 20 17 15
2001 18 27 26 30 49 62 62 63 47 29 28 23 18
2002 18 21 22 32 43 53 63 58 61 42 23 22 18
2003 13 22 29 35 48 55 67 67 48 41 30 20 13
2004 16 22 27 35 46 62 64 58 52 43 30 15 15
2005 13 25 24 35 42 58 69 62 61 34 26 21 13
2006 25 21 28 36 46 59 61 63 49 35 28 17 17
2007 23 18 27 27 46 59 61 68 52 36 27 22 18
2008 17 25 29 34 45 59 59 61 57 31 21 21 17
2009 12 17 18 35 47 63 62 67 51 37 29 25 12
2010 15 21 25 39 49 62 59 66 57 38 29 17 15
2011 17 21 28 34 47 59 64 63 55 33 30 27 17
2012 18 23 29 36 49 54 70 61 50 39 24 23 18
2013 20 19 26 37 44 59 66 59 51 31 20 24 19
2014 8 24 20 34 47 52 61 62 57 41 17 27 8
2015 13 10 22 36 48 63 65 61 50 34 28 28 10
2016 20 19 30 31 47 60 70 64 61 40 28 22 19
2017 14 28 25 38 47 58 59 60 54 38 29 22 14
2018 9 21 25 36 47 62 61 58 65 36 24 25 9
2019 19 26 25 33 47 54 64 61 53 43 25 25 19
2020 24 23 26 35 39 55 68 67 49 42 30 21 21
2021 24 23 27 30 42 54 62 68 51 43 26 28 23
2022 16 25 24 37 47 55 64 61 46 34 26 15 15
2023 25 M M M M M M M M M M M 25
Edited by Allen
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YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@tntropics - 60+ In-ground 7A palms - (Sabal) minor(7 large + 27 seedling size, 3 dwarf),  brazoria(1) , birmingham(4), etonia (1) louisiana(5), palmetto (1), riverside (1),  (Trachycarpus) fortunei(7), wagnerianus(1),  Rhapidophyllum hystrix(7),  15' Mule-Butia x Syagrus(1),  Blue Butia capitata(1) +Tons of tropical plants.  Recent Yearly Lows -1F, 12F, 11F, 18F, 16F, 3F, 3F, 6F, 3F, 1F, 16F, 17F, 6F, 8F

 

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1 minute ago, ZPalms said:

I'm in fayetteville, hope mills, I just don't know what site would give me accurate temperature information

Well the record lows for Fayetteville are 2F in December, -1F in January and 1F in February. I would hazard a guess that you will see a 10F low every 5 years there and a 5F low every 20 years there. If you are on the outskirts of the city with less UHI protection, it may be slightly worse than that. You also have to factor in the amount of wet-cold and snow that you guys get to during these events. My freezes are usually very dry here with clear skies, which is likely a bit different to what you would experience in your climate. Either way I think you will have to protect a Mule every couple of years throughout its life there.

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Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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8 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

Well the record lows for Fayetteville are 2F in December, -1F in January and 1F in February. I would hazard a guess that you will see a 10F low every 5 years there and a 5F low every 20 years there. If you are on the outskirts of the city with less UHI protection, it may be slightly worse than that. You also have to factor in the amount of wet-cold and snow that you guys get to during these events. My freezes are usually very dry here with clear skies, which is likely a bit different to what you would experience in your climate. Either way I think you will have to protect a Mule every couple of years throughout its life there.

That's not so bad, I wouldn't mind protecting a mule here and there and definitely would be more forgiving than a coconut outside so I think I'll establish some butias first and then try some mules and @Allen has a great protection method for his, what's the main things for your protection method? Is it on your youtube on how you do it?

Thanks guys! 🤠

Edited by ZPalms
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13 minutes ago, Allen said:

https://www.weather.gov/wrh/Climate?wfo=rah

 

Monthly Lowest Min Temperature for Fayetteville Area, NC (ThreadEx)
Click column heading to sort ascending, click again to sort descending.
Year
Jan
Feb
Mar
Apr
May
Jun
Jul
Aug
Sep
Oct
Nov
Dec
Annual
Mean 17 22 26 34 46 58 64 62 53 37 26 22 16
Max 25
2023
28
2017
31
2000
39
2010
49
2012
63
2015
70
2016
68
2021
65
2018
43
2021
30
2020
28
2021
25
2023
Min 8
2014
10
2015
18
2009
27
2007
39
2020
52
2014
59
2017
57
2000
46
2022
29
2001
17
2014
15
2022
8
2014
2000 15 22 31 36 45 52 62 57 49 33 20 17 15
2001 18 27 26 30 49 62 62 63 47 29 28 23 18
2002 18 21 22 32 43 53 63 58 61 42 23 22 18
2003 13 22 29 35 48 55 67 67 48 41 30 20 13
2004 16 22 27 35 46 62 64 58 52 43 30 15 15
2005 13 25 24 35 42 58 69 62 61 34 26 21 13
2006 25 21 28 36 46 59 61 63 49 35 28 17 17
2007 23 18 27 27 46 59 61 68 52 36 27 22 18
2008 17 25 29 34 45 59 59 61 57 31 21 21 17
2009 12 17 18 35 47 63 62 67 51 37 29 25 12
2010 15 21 25 39 49 62 59 66 57 38 29 17 15
2011 17 21 28 34 47 59 64 63 55 33 30 27 17
2012 18 23 29 36 49 54 70 61 50 39 24 23 18
2013 20 19 26 37 44 59 66 59 51 31 20 24 19
2014 8 24 20 34 47 52 61 62 57 41 17 27 8
2015 13 10 22 36 48 63 65 61 50 34 28 28 10
2016 20 19 30 31 47 60 70 64 61 40 28 22 19
2017 14 28 25 38 47 58 59 60 54 38 29 22 14
2018 9 21 25 36 47 62 61 58 65 36 24 25 9
2019 19 26 25 33 47 54 64 61 53 43 25 25 19
2020 24 23 26 35 39 55 68 67 49 42 30 21 21
2021 24 23 27 30 42 54 62 68 51 43 26 28 23
2022 16 25 24 37 47 55 64 61 46 34 26 15 15
2023 25 M M M M M M M M M M M 25

I actually got confused for a second, I thought UK_Palms posted this but it's really helpful because I've been growing without actually knowing my area data for a moment so this is awesome! 😂

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@Allen I would be skeptical of those lows if he is located on the outskirts of the city with less urban heat island effect and they are basing those figures off a few stations within the proper city. Fayetteville appears to have a population of 250-300,000 people, so the difference could easily be as much as 5-6F for outlying areas that don’t benefit from the UHI much. 

@ZPalms Are you surrounded by fields / farmland, or any open areas where you are? If you are in the southwest of Hope Mills for instance, it looks like you will be quite far out from the main UHI area and close to the open areas, which will be colder.

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Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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7 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

@Allen I would be skeptical of those lows if he is located on the outskirts of the city with less urban heat island effect and they are basing those figures off a few stations within the proper city. Fayetteville appears to have a population of 250-300,000 people, so the difference could easily be as much as 5-6F for outlying areas that don’t benefit from the UHI much. 

@ZPalms Are you surrounded by fields / farmland, or any open areas where you are? If you are in the southwest of Hope Mills for instance, it looks like you will be quite far out from the main UHI area and close to the open areas, which will be colder.

I'm located not that far from hope mills lake so I don't know what I would be considered but the lack of concrete and more forest I'm sure I loose a lot of that urban heat but I'm 5 mins south of hope mills lake

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39 minutes ago, ZPalms said:

That's not so bad, I wouldn't mind protecting a mule here and there and definitely would be more forgiving than a coconut outside so I think I'll establish some butias first and then try some mules and @Allen has a great protection method for his, what's the main things for your protection method? Is it on your youtube on how you do it?

Thanks guys! 🤠

It's on youtube but a mule will outgrow protection.  Advice is stick to basics first 80% of plantings Trachycarpus/Sabals/needles then venture into butias and others for 20%

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YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@tntropics - 60+ In-ground 7A palms - (Sabal) minor(7 large + 27 seedling size, 3 dwarf),  brazoria(1) , birmingham(4), etonia (1) louisiana(5), palmetto (1), riverside (1),  (Trachycarpus) fortunei(7), wagnerianus(1),  Rhapidophyllum hystrix(7),  15' Mule-Butia x Syagrus(1),  Blue Butia capitata(1) +Tons of tropical plants.  Recent Yearly Lows -1F, 12F, 11F, 18F, 16F, 3F, 3F, 6F, 3F, 1F, 16F, 17F, 6F, 8F

 

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My mule got very big fast. However now that it is mature, it blooms nearly non-stop and the amount of fronds it puts out every year has vastly slowed.

It went from pretty easy to protect, to nearly impossible (without risking life and limb).

Last winter it had greater than 50% foliar damage from the ice storm and low of 18 or 19.  Took all summer to look OK, and I was hoping it would not get damaged this winter....

The Christmas freeze this year, with a low of 18, resulted in around 50% foliar damage again.  So will look like junk this year too.

I don't know how many consecutive years it can take getting partially defoliated before it doesn't have the energy to recover.  I'm hoping we get a string of winters without temps to damage it so it can at least look a little better.

I know it is a matter of time before there is a cold event that outright kills it.  I'm thinking if/when there is a major event forecast to go below 15, I'm going to pre-emptively cut all the fronds off and deal with protecting a "telephone pole". 

With the mature growth rate I'm seeing now, It seems like it would take 2-3 years to re-grow a decently full crown. 

You might get lucky and get a mule that doesn't show foliar damage until lower temps, but that is just a roll of the dice. 

WP_20160116_007.thumb.jpg.c485ae8f2c056aa3097e16079222495f.jpg     

Early protection in 2015-16 when it was a few years old from a strap leaf.

mule2.thumb.jpg.ba5bec821f41e7b27271aa573968456a.jpg

2017, getting harder to protect.

1829165077_20220119_155551(2).thumb.jpg.36130af65be805a8fd02cc5a12f2259e.jpg

2021... my sad attempt at protecting the trunk pre ice storm.

It's looking pretty sad right now, but alive.... I supposed I should snap a photo to update.

 

 

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16 minutes ago, ZPalms said:

I'm located not that far from hope mills lake so I don't know what I would be considered but the lack of concrete and more forest I'm sure I loose a lot of that urban heat but I'm 5 mins south of hope mills lake

Looking at the map, you being located 5 mins south of that lake still puts you nearer the outskirts of the UHI then, although you should still benefit from it slightly. More than I thought at least. Your lows will probably be fairly similar to what Allen posted. It’s hard to say though.

You should check the Wunderground PWS map in your area during the next freeze event to see how extensive the UHI really is in Fayetteville and whether it covers your location much. Compare the stations in your immediate area to those in the actual city.

For inland areas away from the coast, you will be surprised just how much protection you can get from being in a city or built up urban area, as opposed to say a small rural town or close to open fields/forest. In extreme cases it can mean more than 15F of protection, especially during radiation freezes.

On Sunday night, I observed a 16-17F difference between the most protected areas of central London and the far northwestern outer suburbs of the capital. Obviously that is a huge city across a big area, but it still shows the degree of protection you can get.

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Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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On 1/24/2023 at 9:00 AM, UK_Palms said:

What is the coldest temperature you have ever seen in your location during your lifetime? Anything below say 8-10F and you can forget about growing Mules.

The lowest I have experienced here is about 12F in 2010 and 2018, which would still defoliate a Mule, but shouldn’t quite kill it. Anything 10F or below though is risky territory. 

I'm at the edge of 7b/8a. We hit 5°F right before Christmas. Two prior winter minimums we're 20°F. Large Butias toasted. Even the Rosemary defoliated. No way I could do a Mule here. 

Edited by SeanK
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Just fyi also a butia is much easier to protect if needed than a mule palm because of staying with a shorter trunk and being a little more hardy.  That makes a big difference

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YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@tntropics - 60+ In-ground 7A palms - (Sabal) minor(7 large + 27 seedling size, 3 dwarf),  brazoria(1) , birmingham(4), etonia (1) louisiana(5), palmetto (1), riverside (1),  (Trachycarpus) fortunei(7), wagnerianus(1),  Rhapidophyllum hystrix(7),  15' Mule-Butia x Syagrus(1),  Blue Butia capitata(1) +Tons of tropical plants.  Recent Yearly Lows -1F, 12F, 11F, 18F, 16F, 3F, 3F, 6F, 3F, 1F, 16F, 17F, 6F, 8F

 

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Butias do awesome here, never seen anyone loose one, been seeing lots of new butias pop up around town and some that have been here for 15 years or more now

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Here's mine after consecutive nights of 13F, 14F, 14F

Of course this won't always be the case but you very well could end up with one that'll laugh at your winter lows 

IMG_20230120_155103_089.jpg

IMG_20230120_155103_128.jpg

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11 minutes ago, ZPalms said:

Butias do awesome here, never seen anyone loose one, been seeing lots of new butias pop up around town and some that have been here for 15 years or more now

Charlotte but 4 minute mark

YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@tntropics - 60+ In-ground 7A palms - (Sabal) minor(7 large + 27 seedling size, 3 dwarf),  brazoria(1) , birmingham(4), etonia (1) louisiana(5), palmetto (1), riverside (1),  (Trachycarpus) fortunei(7), wagnerianus(1),  Rhapidophyllum hystrix(7),  15' Mule-Butia x Syagrus(1),  Blue Butia capitata(1) +Tons of tropical plants.  Recent Yearly Lows -1F, 12F, 11F, 18F, 16F, 3F, 3F, 6F, 3F, 1F, 16F, 17F, 6F, 8F

 

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2 minutes ago, Allen said:

Charlotte but 4 minute mark

charlotte does get a lot colder than it does here, I pass by a butia in my grandmas neighborhood that is unfazed by the december blast and the rest of these are still alive including the newer transplants. Sabals and Butias are the most common plantings in my area including trachycarpus being a newer addition that I don't see many people grow but I see them sometimes but I have a couple that are small.

IMG-5896.thumb.jpg.f2ce33cf01beeeeb1cce793ead4d9b71.jpg

IMG-3012.thumb.jpg.0dbc24d4380c78e476813cb6cd6e9e38.jpg

1546333962_Screenshot(240).png.23bed3cbb2c8412a55d41c2429aab6cb.png

1838045125_Screenshot(247).thumb.png.26d615b985a853e9e0d8418be7d04bfc.png

IMG-3458.thumb.jpg.433d2e96562cea9a901c830d203606d4.jpg

IMG-2557.thumb.jpg.9db03bd6e068c2cda5be12d8928f292d.jpg

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35 minutes ago, DAVEinMB said:

Here's mine after consecutive nights of 13F, 14F, 14F

Of course this won't always be the case but you very well could end up with one that'll laugh at your winter lows 

IMG_20230120_155103_089.jpg

IMG_20230120_155103_128.jpg

@ZPalms meant to tag you in this

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6 minutes ago, DAVEinMB said:

@ZPalms meant to tag you in this

I feel like I could try growing a mule palm and possibly get away with it, even protecting it here and there. Does your mule get shielded and benefits from the other palms during cold blasts? Your mule looks pristine.

I could almost mistake this photo for a tropical place if it weren't for the freeze-burnt washie leaves. Was this taken recently, during the December blast? And how does it perform with cold winter rain?

Edited by ZPalms
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17 minutes ago, ZPalms said:

charlotte does get a lot colder than it does here, I pass by a butia in my grandmas neighborhood that is unfazed by the december blast and the rest of these are still alive including the newer transplants. Sabals and Butias are the most common plantings in my area including trachycarpus being a newer addition that I don't see many people grow but I see them sometimes but I have a couple that are small.

Maybe and I get your point.  You seem to have had a lot of temps under 10F and I think butia will possibly die in those temps IMO.  The Craven Cty. extension manager told me in 2019 about the 2018 freeze "Butia capitata was a disaster at any distance from the coast."

Butia several midway thru.

 

Edited by Allen
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YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@tntropics - 60+ In-ground 7A palms - (Sabal) minor(7 large + 27 seedling size, 3 dwarf),  brazoria(1) , birmingham(4), etonia (1) louisiana(5), palmetto (1), riverside (1),  (Trachycarpus) fortunei(7), wagnerianus(1),  Rhapidophyllum hystrix(7),  15' Mule-Butia x Syagrus(1),  Blue Butia capitata(1) +Tons of tropical plants.  Recent Yearly Lows -1F, 12F, 11F, 18F, 16F, 3F, 3F, 6F, 3F, 1F, 16F, 17F, 6F, 8F

 

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3 minutes ago, Allen said:

Maybe and I get your point.  You seem to have had a lot of temps under 10F and I think butia will possibly die in those temps IMO.  The Craven Cty. extension manager told me in 2019 about the 2018 freeze "Butia capitata was a disaster at any distance from the coast."

Butia several midway thru.

 

It's been a while since the temperature has dropped below 10F recently and if it did it was so brief I won't say that there's no chance for the cold to wipe them out if it wanted to, but as of now, I think getting away with butias works as long as you don't get too comfortable and let winter sneak up on you unexpectedly 😍

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I have a feeling that by the 2030s we will all go a half hardiness zone up. So, 8a becomes 8b, 8b becomes 9a. My area used to be 8a in the 90s and early 00s, but now is more consistently 8b.

So if you grow one now from seed, it will only start becoming too difficult to protect by 2030. 🤔

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On 1/24/2023 at 8:47 AM, ZPalms said:

I just wanted to see the general consensus about whether getting a mule palm would be the right choice or if it would be a zone-pushing novelty. I've been reading that its hardiness goes down to about 16F degrees, I know that Butia palms are bulletproof here, I don't know of anyone who has lost a Butia or ever seen one dead. Would that be a good reason to try a mule palm, or would it be more susceptible to damage than a pure Butia?

Do you remember the winter of 2018? All but one butia in Raleigh were killed. Many along the coast were also killed. My sister lives in wilmington and she lost a 15' tall butia that had to be over 15 years old. We went out on her boat that spring and every single butia I saw had been defoliated. Most of them recovered but none got away without damage. Every butia I knew of in the Greenville and New Bern areas were also killed that year. So I don't think butias are bullet proof anywhere in North Carolina. 

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1 hour ago, knikfar said:

Do you remember the winter of 2018? All but one butia in Raleigh were killed. Many along the coast were also killed. My sister lives in wilmington and she lost a 15' tall butia that had to be over 15 years old. We went out on her boat that spring and every single butia I saw had been defoliated. Most of them recovered but none got away without damage. Every butia I knew of in the Greenville and New Bern areas were also killed that year. So I don't think butias are bullet proof anywhere in North Carolina. 

That was a record duration cold event. We didn’t loose any down here that I know of but many were burned even down here. I have probably 20 in my neighborhood and I’d say half of them burned pretty badly but they all recovered. Many many houses had burst water pipes including my house (fortunately we were renters). 

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13 hours ago, Zeni said:

I have a feeling that by the 2030s we will all go a half hardiness zone up. So, 8a becomes 8b, 8b becomes 9a. My area used to be 8a in the 90s and early 00s, but now is more consistently 8b.

So if you grow one now from seed, it will only start becoming too difficult to protect by 2030. 🤔

Or we could be back to the 1990 USDA map. Sunspots, NAO, Van Allen belts strengthening, a volcano or two. . .

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1 hour ago, SeanK said:

Or we could be back to the 1990 USDA map. Sunspots, NAO, Van Allen belts strengthening, a volcano or two. . .

It's a strong and obvious trend in which direction it is going.

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3 hours ago, RJ said:

That was a record duration cold event. We didn’t loose any down here that I know of but many were burned even down here. I have probably 20 in my neighborhood and I’d say half of them burned pretty badly but they all recovered. Many many houses had burst water pipes including my house (fortunately we were renters). 

But it seems like these weird weather events are happening more frequently.  Just look at this past December cold event, temps dropped more than 30 degrees in a matter of hours. Plants that nobody has ever seen damage on in the past got damaged. Some people in my area, Raleigh, have shared their experiences growing washies and livistona, mostly as die back perennials or just with having to flush out a whole new set of leaves after winter. So I planted a few in my yard, right up against my foundation. They looked great all summer and fall. And then BAM! The December cold event dropped temps down to 11f and kept them under freezing for two days straight. My Livistonas had spear pull at all growth points. One of my washies spear pulled and I had to trunk cut it. No idea if its dead or not. The other washy didn't spear pull but it looks terrible. Even one of my euro fan palms had spear pull on three of four growth points. Do you remember terms like "bomb cyclone", "Derecho" or "Polar Vortex" growing up? They might have existed but I never heard of them. But in my adult life, they seem to be pretty common. 

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I wasn't into palm in 2018 like I am now and they probably did defolitate back then but they are old butias and all the ones I know from this area all came back which is a win for me, I still rank them among sabals as a stable palms for my area at least

Edited by ZPalms
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On 1/25/2023 at 3:34 PM, ZPalms said:

I feel like I could try growing a mule palm and possibly get away with it, even protecting it here and there. Does your mule get shielded and benefits from the other palms during cold blasts? Your mule looks pristine.

I could almost mistake this photo for a tropical place if it weren't for the freeze-burnt washie leaves. Was this taken recently, during the December blast? And how does it perform with cold winter rain?

I would definitely give it a go, mine have surprised me. I'll have to post a pic of the worst looking one however to show how differently they may react to cold temps. My worst looking one is almost completely burnt and it also happens to look the most like a queen so that probably plays into it. The 2 I posted above are pretty exposed, i think they just have good genetics. 

Yea i wanted to create a tropical feel that wrapped around my patio, been almost 4 years since I started. So far I'm pretty happy with how it's all coming together. I took that pic last week after we had a good bit of warm weather (high 60s, low 70s). They all have a good bit of size to them so they really don't seem to mind wet cold that much. The very first one I planted had partial spear pull its first two winters in the ground tho. When they're small they need help at times

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One thing that comes to my mind other than your local climate is the strength of the specific plant. They seem to vary a lot in looks, shapes and also hardiness. Such hybrids seem to be wimps quite often with only a few very strong plants out of a batch of seeds. Another thing regarding your climate is how much warm up you get during or after hard freezes. From what I've seen here imo it's worth a try!

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Yes it's me Hortulanus 😂

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8 hours ago, knikfar said:

But it seems like these weird weather events are happening more frequently.  Just look at this past December cold event, temps dropped more than 30 degrees in a matter of hours. Plants that nobody has ever seen damage on in the past got damaged. Some people in my area, Raleigh, have shared their experiences growing washies and livistona, mostly as die back perennials or just with having to flush out a whole new set of leaves after winter. So I planted a few in my yard, right up against my foundation. They looked great all summer and fall. And then BAM! The December cold event dropped temps down to 11f and kept them under freezing for two days straight. My Livistonas had spear pull at all growth points. One of my washies spear pulled and I had to trunk cut it. No idea if its dead or not. The other washy didn't spear pull but it looks terrible. Even one of my euro fan palms had spear pull on three of four growth points. Do you remember terms like "bomb cyclone", "Derecho" or "Polar Vortex" growing up? They might have existed but I never heard of them. But in my adult life, they seem to be pretty common. 

Derecho has been around for many decades. Bomb cyclone and polar vortex are relatively new terms. Polar vortex if I recall was coined in 2014. IMO the later two terms are used to weaponize weather by groups with an agenda. 
 

one thing to keep in mind is weather records only date back a 130 years or so, this is such a minuscule snapshot in the history of the earth’s climate. As I’ve said before in another thread, the weather I see outside my window at any given time has happened 1000’s of times before in this exact location. A good portion of the North American continent was under a mile thick layer of ice only ~13,000 years ago- a blink of an eye in terms of time for a planet with a 4 billion year history. 
 

below is a snap shot of Raleigh historical low temps for just January  dating back to 1890 or so. This is over simplified but Over a 130 year period 31 record lows were set. Some are bunched together, like in the 1970’s , a historically cold decade. Then the 80’s with infamous freezes. 
 

1593DF2A-427C-432D-B9F0-65ED3E663CAC.thumb.jpeg.e9a6abe839541779cc655b95fa254e88.jpeg

Edited by RJ
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@Hortulanus @SeanK North America seems to have more unstable winters, especially the East coast, which can be risky for exotics fans in zones 8. In Europe, especially Western Europe the winters seem to be consistently getting weaker and summers are becoming noticably drier in a stable trend. 2018 and 2022 were the driest summers I ever experienced here and that's likely not a fluke. Frisians have been complaining for many year now that their precious eleven-cities skating tradition (this) will never come back. 🥲😄

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1 hour ago, DAVEinMB said:

@ZPalmshere's the pic showing level of burn of my worst looking mule. This one is more exposed to north winds but sees full sun all day

 

Amazing the difference… and you say this is the most “queen” looking of them?

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2 hours ago, DAVEinMB said:

@ZPalmshere's the pic showing level of burn of my worst looking mule. This one is more exposed to north winds but sees full sun all day

20230127_083238.jpg

Is Myrtle Beach 8a or 8b?

How low were temps at Christmastime?

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1 hour ago, RJ said:

Amazing the difference… and you say this is the most “queen” looking of them?

Yea it's unreal, might as well be two different species. 

The foliage maintains that stiffer feel you'd expect with having pindo mixed in but the leaflet characteristics are very much queen. Here's a couple pics of it from this summer when it was more pleasant to look at

20221019_174915.jpg

Screenshot_20230127_114414_Gallery.jpg

Screenshot_20230127_114442_Gallery.jpg

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