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CIDP in Florida panhandle, 8b/9a


AcerPALMatum

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I’m in a coastal area of the Florida panhandle in Okaloosa county. I was wondering how hardy Phoenix canariensis would be for me. I have seen some decent sized ones on Okaloosa island (On the ocean so probably slightly warmer than me), but no massive ones like I’ve seen in California. A weather station near me during the recent  Christmas cold event recorded a low 18.5F. As a result of this event there are plenty of dead-looking queen palms and very sad looking Washingtonia sp. According to NOAA’s website the local airport recorded a low of 22 during that event, and the lowest temp since ‘96 was 20 in 2014. I don’t see many CIDPs around town. How would you guys wager the long-term survivability of one here?

Edited by AcerPALMatum
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It seem like you've answered your question by describing what you've seen in your immediate area. 

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12 minutes ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

It seem like you've answered your question by describing what you've seen in your immediate area. 

The smaller ones are around me seem to have survived the recent cold event with some leaf damage which is the coldest it has been in years. I recall a post here saying they will defoliate at ~17F, which I don’t think it ever reaches. I don’t see why they wouldn’t make it. But I’m no palm expert.

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7 minutes ago, AcerPALMatum said:

The smaller ones are around me seem to have survived the recent cold event with some leaf damage which is the coldest it has been in years. I recall a post here saying they will defoliate at ~17F, which I don’t think it ever reaches. I don’t see why they wouldn’t make it. But I’m no palm expert.

You should get some decent years out of them, but @JLM and @Matthew92 would be able to comment more intelligently than me.

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Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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There are some CIDPs throughout Pensacola. You can get several years out of them as said above. However, we do dip into the teens every 3-6 years or so. Our records lows here in the Panhandle are in the single digits to low teens. 

We have gotten lucky with no bad freezes since 2018 until Christmas. My Queens are in the trunking stage right now, and are badly damaged from the 19F (probably colder) i had here.

In the end, i dont see why planting CIDP would be a bad idea, especially if you can get them to a decent trunk width and some height before the next bad winter.

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Palms - 4 S. romanzoffiana, 1 W. bifurcata, 4 W. robusta, 1 R. rivularis, 1 B. odorata, 1 B. nobilis, 4 S. palmetto, 1 A. merillii, 2 P. canariensis, 1 BxJ, 1 BxJxBxS, 1 BxS, 3 P. roebelenii, 1 H. lagenicaulis, 1 H. verschaffeltii, 9 T. fortunei, 1 C. humilis, 2 C. macrocarpa, 1 L. chinensis, 1 R. excelsa, 1 S. bermudana, 1 L. nitida

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8 minutes ago, JLM said:

There are some CIDPs throughout Pensacola. You can get several years out of them as said above. However, we do dip into the teens every 3-6 years or so. Our records lows here in the Panhandle are in the single digits to low teens. 

We have gotten lucky with no bad freezes since 2018 until Christmas. My Queens are in the trunking stage right now, and are badly damaged from the 19F (probably colder) i had here.

In the end, i dont see why planting CIDP would be a bad idea, especially if you can get them to a decent trunk width and some height before the next bad winter.

Thanks for the info! I’m in FWB, and surprisingly Wikipedia lists the record low as 20, looking at the burned palms I definitely believe it gets significantly colder.  it looks like Pensacola may be a smidge warmer than us looking at the USDA zone map. I’ll give a CIDP a try and won’t get too attached. I wonder if a hybrid with slightly hardier Phoenix would help, there are plenty of unfazed date palms. Not sure what species exactly they are though.

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There are plenty of CIDP's in Pensacola, mostly pretty large. I recall during the last bad freeze of 2017, where it sleeted and got down to about 18F, I saw at least one large canary defoliate in the aftermath, but it was fine a few months later. I will look around and see what happened to the ones around town since after this freeze. Also need to check out the mature queen that's been in ground for 13 years, see if it completely defoliated like all the rest did. I don't think you'd have much to worry about with a canary as long as we don't get those record 1980's freezes any time soon. Not just a few years out of it but a few decades. It might defoliate every several years though. 

There are several dactyliferas around town and pcola Beach that look like they've been around for some number of decades. There's even one in Milton but it looks more recently planted. If dactylifera and a senegal hybrid have survived then canaries most probably also will long term. I believe canary is a few degrees hardier. Plenty of sylvestris around too. They're a few degrees hardier than canary. I don't know about survival in the single digits though.

I've got a bucket of canary seedlings from last summer with a bag over it and about no soil and they all made it through the last freeze, same with seedlings that are actually potted up. They're pretty hardy!

If you're in FWB I wouldn't worry too much. Above Crestview, maybe sketchier

Edited by Borderzoner
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3 hours ago, AcerPALMatum said:

The smaller ones are around me seem to have survived the recent cold event with some leaf damage which is the coldest it has been in years. I recall a post here saying they will defoliate at ~17F, which I don’t think it ever reaches. I don’t see why they wouldn’t make it. But I’m no palm expert.

Okay, so I’ll bite… 

 

Are you a former maple guy/gal? I’m from the north, and gotta admit, before palms I was into leafy things that lost their leaves in the winter and still kinda am TBH. I grow all sorts of trees on the side, including maples. But a name with Acer and Palm has me scratchin’ my head .  Fill the forum in …. 

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There are very old CIDP (50-100+? years) in inland North Florida along I-10 (and also the I-10 corridor in the western Gulf) and inland southeastern Georgia. 

CIDP should be bulletproof in Pensacola 

 

Lots of pre-89 CIDP in Biloxi, MS and Brunswick, GA

 

Edited by Xenon
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Jonathan

Katy, TX (Zone 9a)

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1 hour ago, RJ said:

Okay, so I’ll bite… 

 

Are you a former maple guy/gal? I’m from the north, and gotta admit, before palms I was into leafy things that lost their leaves in the winter and still kinda am TBH. I grow all sorts of trees on the side, including maples. But a name with Acer and Palm has me scratchin’ my head .  Fill the forum in …. 

I’m from New England, my mother had a huge garden with all sorts of gorgeous Japanese maples that I loved. The latin name is Acer palmatum. I like leafy trees and want to get into palms so the username is a bad pun based off of the two :) 

1 hour ago, Borderzoner said:

There are plenty of CIDP's in Pensacola, mostly pretty large. I recall during the last bad freeze of 2017, where it sleeted and got down to about 18F, I saw at least one large canary defoliate in the aftermath, but it was fine a few months later. I will look around and see what happened to the ones around town since after this freeze. Also need to check out the mature queen that's been in ground for 13 years, see if it completely defoliated like all the rest did. I don't think you'd have much to worry about with a canary as long as we don't get those record 1980's freezes any time soon. Not just a few years out of it but a few decades. It might defoliate every several years though. 

There are several dactyliferas around town and pcola Beach that look like they've been around for some number of decades. There's even one in Milton but it looks more recently planted. If dactylifera and a senegal hybrid have survived then canaries most probably also will long term. I believe canary is a few degrees hardier. Plenty of sylvestris around too. They're a few degrees hardier than canary. I don't know about survival in the single digits though.

I've got a bucket of canary seedlings from last summer with a bag over it and about no soil and they all made it through the last freeze, same with seedlings that are actually potted up. They're pretty hardy!

If you're in FWB I wouldn't worry too much. Above Crestview, maybe sketchier

I’m glad you’re optimistic! 13 year old Queen palm around here sounds impressive. There are a few large queens in FWB, I wonder how many make it through the winter.

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Just now, AcerPALMatum said:

I’m from New England, my mother had a huge garden with all sorts of gorgeous Japanese maples that I loved. The latin name is Acer palmatum. I like leafy trees and want to get into palms so the username is a bad pun based off of the two :) 

 

Right on, I’m a former New England’er myself.  Yep Japanese maples grow great up there. Don’t miss the winters at all. Welcome to the palm world 👍

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57 minutes ago, Xenon said:

There are very old CIDP (50-100+? years) in inland North Florida along I-10 (and also the I-10 corridor in the western Gulf) and inland southeastern Georgia. 

CIDP should be bulletproof in Pensacola 

 

Lots of pre-89 CIDP in Biloxi, MS and Brunswick, GA

 

Yeah dude, I think you're totally right. I was edging on the safe side to say they'd live a few decades, but was really thinking longer than that haha. It just weirded me out to see one defoliate at 18F. I guess the trunk itself has significant difference in hardiness.

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It seems i have way underestimated their hardiness. If i had the space for a CIDP, i would get one.

Palms - 4 S. romanzoffiana, 1 W. bifurcata, 4 W. robusta, 1 R. rivularis, 1 B. odorata, 1 B. nobilis, 4 S. palmetto, 1 A. merillii, 2 P. canariensis, 1 BxJ, 1 BxJxBxS, 1 BxS, 3 P. roebelenii, 1 H. lagenicaulis, 1 H. verschaffeltii, 9 T. fortunei, 1 C. humilis, 2 C. macrocarpa, 1 L. chinensis, 1 R. excelsa, 1 S. bermudana, 1 L. nitida

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You’re in the safe zone for CIDP.  Consider I-10 and south the safe zone for long term hardiness. Probably north of that, but at least to I10. Virtually all CIDP survived in San Antonio in Feb 21, which was colder than anything you’ve seen since like 1985 or whatever year the really bad North Florida freeze was. 
 

You should be good to go. The fronds are fairly tender and will brown out at around 20F but they always recover. 

Edited by NBTX11
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15 hours ago, AcerPALMatum said:

Thanks for the info! I’m in FWB, and surprisingly Wikipedia lists the record low as 20, looking at the burned palms I definitely believe it gets significantly colder.  it looks like Pensacola may be a smidge warmer than us looking at the USDA zone map. I’ll give a CIDP a try and won’t get too attached. I wonder if a hybrid with slightly hardier Phoenix would help, there are plenty of unfazed date palms. Not sure what species exactly they are though.

Everywhere in the Florida panhandle has gotten way colder than 20F. Tallahassee’s record low is -2F, and everywhere else is in the single digits. 1985 in Florida was like 2021 in Texas, if not worse. Pensacola saw 5 degrees in 1985. 

Edited by NBTX11
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15 hours ago, Borderzoner said:

Yeah dude, I think you're totally right. I was edging on the safe side to say they'd live a few decades, but was really thinking longer than that haha. It just weirded me out to see one defoliate at 18F. I guess the trunk itself has significant difference in hardiness.

The superpower of CIDP isn’t the hardiness of the fronds but how low it can take and still recover, despite 100% burn. 

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Corpus Christi, TX, near salt water, zone 9b/10a! Except when it isn't and everything gets nuked.

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Confirming what I thought, I found a pretty dang large CIDP in the Uptown Station mall in FWB. I wonder how big they were when put in.

2076751A-7954-456B-B929-46B5F163E431.jpeg

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1 hour ago, AcerPALMatum said:

Confirming what I thought, I found a pretty dang large CIDP in the Uptown Station mall in FWB. I wonder how big they were when put in.

2076751A-7954-456B-B929-46B5F163E431.jpeg

Pretty old just based on the way the trunks look.

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Palms - 4 S. romanzoffiana, 1 W. bifurcata, 4 W. robusta, 1 R. rivularis, 1 B. odorata, 1 B. nobilis, 4 S. palmetto, 1 A. merillii, 2 P. canariensis, 1 BxJ, 1 BxJxBxS, 1 BxS, 3 P. roebelenii, 1 H. lagenicaulis, 1 H. verschaffeltii, 9 T. fortunei, 1 C. humilis, 2 C. macrocarpa, 1 L. chinensis, 1 R. excelsa, 1 S. bermudana, 1 L. nitida

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On 1/17/2023 at 6:13 PM, AcerPALMatum said:

I’m in a coastal area of the Florida panhandle in Okaloosa county. I was wondering how hardy Phoenix canariensis would be for me. I have seen some decent sized ones on Okaloosa island (On the ocean so probably slightly warmer than me), but no massive ones like I’ve seen in California. A weather station near me during the recent  Christmas cold event recorded a low 18.5F. As a result of this event there are plenty of dead-looking queen palms and very sad looking Washingtonia sp. According to NOAA’s website the local airport recorded a low of 22 during that event, and the lowest temp since ‘96 was 20 in 2014. I don’t see many CIDPs around town. How would you guys wager the long-term survivability of one here?

CIDPs grow here in Augusta and we've seen much colder temperatures(like in 2014 with lows around 13F),  I don't see any frond damage on the few here at 19, 20F, I think they'd be bulletproof anywhere in Florida.

CIDPs had a good rate of survivability in much of Texas during the 2021 freeze where temperatures dipped into the single digits in cities like Austin.

Edited by Emman
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There’s this good looking CIDP in Panama City Beach. I saw that they just trimmed it up a few months ago. 
I don’t think it had ever been trimmed before prior to this and it looked like a huge 10 foot CIDP bush, no trunk was visible. 
 

01E4D5C0-E1B1-46D9-83DD-54A3D71991D8.png

Edited by Jtee
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I would still recommend growing them anywhere in the deep south but...

We have a fair amount of CIDPs around here. However. lately, die-off has been occurring here and there. I suspect that disease has been the culprit. Fusarium wilt or lethal bronzing, which has plagued these palms in Texas and Florida. 

The recent freezes followed by persistent heavy rains probably haven't helped the situation but I've seen some come back nicely from the 2018 and 2021 freezes only to die inexplicably during the summer of 2022.

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6 minutes ago, Sabal_Louisiana said:

I would still recommend growing them anywhere in the deep south but...

We have a fair amount of CIDPs around here. However. lately, die-off has been occurring here and there. I suspect that disease has been the culprit. Fusarium wilt or lethal bronzing, which has plagued these palms in Texas and Florida. 

The recent freezes followed by persistent heavy rains probably haven't helped the situation but I've seen some come back nicely from the 2018 and 2021 freezes only to die inexplicably during the summer of 2022.

I’ve seen plenty of them in New Orleans in the highway medians that looked like they died of wilt. I was in N.O two months ago and it looked like the city had removed a lot of them. 
 

I was in Orlando two weeks ago and noticed a lot of the Sylvester date palms have died from wilt. There are lots of them just off the exits as landscape plantings that are all brown or that have totally just lost the whole top of the palm. 

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