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Chamaerhops Humilis in USDA zone 8


TonyDFW

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12 minutes ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

i believe thats the indication for 9a

Yes! Sure! I'm not in a 9b climate! What I meant was that these days we sometimes even get 9b winters. At least in my microclimate within the UHI inside the Cologne Lowland. There are winters now with frost being very rare and then only dipping down to -2°C/-3°C. Last time was the winter 2019/2020 I believe.

Yes it's me Hortulanus 😂

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15 hours ago, Hortulanus said:

Same here. In 2010 I didn't have much planted out, because I was still argueing with the family about what gets planted. The garden was very neglected but still I wasn't allowed to plant what I wanted. That changed more and more as I just did it and everything started to look better because of it. I can't quite remember what I had in the ground in 2010 already except for Trachys, Yuccas and a Redwood. The thing is that 2009 and 2010 get mixed up in my head because I remember them both as horror events. Most winters here are also 9a and lately as you've mentioned even 9b. But my Chamaerops has seen 8a winters for sure. In my experience they are very very winter hardy. In the 2009/2010 winters even some more or less native plants around the city died. Brown hedges and such. Chamaerops are not as common as Trachys here and they are smaller so when they're not faceing the street you can't spot them so it's hard to decide how the pictures of 30+ years old specimens look. But we have Trachys still growing from the 1960s, going through the winter of 1978, which is I believe the worst in recent history around here.

I don't see a lot of 9b winters in this list https://www.extremeweatherwatch.com/cities/dusseldorf/lowest-temperatures-by-year I would suppose Chamaerops would be marginal in your climate.  

I think Dusseldorf is more like 8a climate perhaps a 8b in the mildest places. 

Edited by Marco67
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1 hour ago, Marco67 said:

I don't see a lot of 9b winters in this list https://www.extremeweatherwatch.com/cities/dusseldorf/lowest-temperatures-by-year I would suppose Chamaerops would be marginal in your climate.  

I think Dusseldorf is more like 8a climate perhaps a 8b in the mildest places. 

Are you sure that those are the actual temperatures measured at the official weather station? The official weather station is already at a cold spot and not representing most of the city but those temperatures from the list seem way off anyways. Not even the amount of cold but also the time when it was supposed to have occured. Like -15.3°C in 1978 for example. The coldest temperature ever recorded here was -19°C in December of 1978. So it was actually colder. We didn't get this cold since then and while it says -9.4°C for 2008 we had the coldest temperature after 1978 in 2008 with temperatures below -9.4°C. -13.8 °C in 2012? No way. -13.7 °C in 2021 I can imagine at the weather station just maybe. I'm always several degrees above the weather station and I have a great microclimate but still. If this would be my climate I wouldn't be able to grow everything I'm growing.

Yes it's me Hortulanus 😂

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Heavily damaged but partially survived 10°F in 2021 20220912_120733.thumb.jpg.18342fc265ab7ec565492a10756de9e5.jpg20220912_120719.thumb.jpg.587888914f158103278383d7890a6082.jpg20220912_120655.thumb.jpg.d063e86098fd9d8d5e13448585a1f1d3.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Marco67 said:

I don't see a lot of 9b winters in this list https://www.extremeweatherwatch.com/cities/dusseldorf/lowest-temperatures-by-year I would suppose Chamaerops would be marginal in your climate.  

I think Dusseldorf is more like 8a climate perhaps a 8b in the mildest places. 

To be honest those websites though aren't that good since there are lots of microclimates. Most of those websites are useless for central London since they don't even record the temperatures in central London they usually take them from colder weather stations such as Heathrow.

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@Las Palmas Norteis that down at the marina in Comox?

Zone 8b, Csb (Warm-summer Mediterranean climate). 1,940 annual sunshine hours 
Annual lows-> 19/20: -5.0C, 20/21: -5.5C, 21/22: -8.3C, 22/23: -9.4C, 23/24: 1.1C (so far!)

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4 hours ago, Foxpalms said:

To be honest those websites though aren't that good since there are lots of microclimates. Most of those websites are useless for central London since they don't even record the temperatures in central London they usually take them from colder weather stations such as Heathrow.

I checked out that site and despite the fact that most weather stations of big cities are a lot colder (in winter)/cooler (in summer) the numbers still don't add up at all. Either the numbers are calculated or taken from some other weather station. Those low temps would make Trachycarpus foruntei marginal long term here and they've been growing here for decades already. Even in colder spots! Not only that some years where well known record temperatures have been reached, it shows actually less severe temperatures LOL. I think I also got misunderstood. I didn't say I'm in a 9b climate or that all the winters are 9b but that the temperatures I measured in the last couple of years bring out increasingly 9b type winters. My initial point was just how hardy Chamaerops are LOL

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Yes it's me Hortulanus 😂

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This is my first Chamaerops in the front garden that I got in 2011. I gave it only a little bit of potting soil and other than that it is growing in pure clay. As you can see I didn't cut off any leaves up until 2020. Not a single one! Gone through every weather we can have, without any damages at all! In early 2021 I gave it a good trim because it was getting too bushy and already started to completely bury small plants behind it under its fronds. Ironically right after that we had the big cold spell of Februrary 2021 and that was the first time it got damaged and lost almost all of its leaves. Even with the coolest and rainiest summer I've ever experienced in 2021 it recovered fine. Here are some pictures:

95180970_16_03.2012(2).thumb.JPG.604861fa222509473293bc538ca0e613.JPG
March 2012

460720384_07_11.2020(3).thumb.jpg.6f582339a5b08baf425361b5b8ee5cc8.jpg
November 2020

112020.thumb.PNG.577b996f18f930203f8a366cfdad0b57.PNG
November 2020 (different angle)

131122.thumb.PNG.37e479e9ac85afe30e0dc253ddd56381.PNG
November 2022

Edited by Hortulanus
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Yes it's me Hortulanus 😂

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21 hours ago, Hortulanus said:

I checked out that site and despite the fact that most weather stations of big cities are a lot colder (in winter)/cooler (in summer) the numbers still don't add up at all. Either the numbers are calculated or taken from some other weather station. Those low temps would make Trachycarpus foruntei marginal long term here and they've been growing here for decades already. Even in colder spots! Not only that some years where well known record temperatures have been reached, it shows actually less severe temperatures LOL. I think I also got misunderstood. I didn't say I'm in a 9b climate or that all the winters are 9b but that the temperatures I measured in the last couple of years bring out increasingly 9b type winters. My initial point was just how hardy Chamaerops are LOL

It is a bit funny that people on these forums always dismiss the weather stations which show the low numbers but always agree with the ones that give the more optimistic numbers 😁 

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21 hours ago, Hortulanus said:

This is my first Chamaerops in the front garden that I got in 2011. I gave it only a little bit of potting soil and other than that it is growing in pure clay. As you can see I didn't cut off any leaves up until 2020. Not a single one! Gone through every weather we can have, without any damages at all! In early 2021 I gave it a good trim because it was getting too bushy and already started to completely bury small plants behind it under its fronds. Ironically right after that we had the big cold spell of Februrary 2021 and that was the first time it got damaged and lost almost all of its leaves. Even with the coolest and rainiest summer I've ever experienced in 2021 it recovered fine. Here are some pictures:

95180970_16_03.2012(2).thumb.JPG.604861fa222509473293bc538ca0e613.JPG
March 2012

460720384_07_11.2020(3).thumb.jpg.6f582339a5b08baf425361b5b8ee5cc8.jpg
November 2020

112020.thumb.PNG.577b996f18f930203f8a366cfdad0b57.PNG
November 2020 (different angle)

131122.thumb.PNG.37e479e9ac85afe30e0dc253ddd56381.PNG
November 2022

Chamaerops looking great. Same here some winters they die back but come back from a few shoots. You live in one of the mildest parts of Germany comparable to coastal

areas in the Netherlands. I don't know why that specific part of Germany has such mild winters but Trachycarpus and Chamaerops should be planted without much problems. 

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4 minutes ago, Marco67 said:

It is a bit funny that people on these forums always dismiss the weather stations which show the low numbers but always agree with the ones that give the more optimistic numbers 😁 

No that's not the point. Like I said even some low data is wrong because it was actually colder in a specific year. I also checked out other extremes like most consecutive days without rain or single day with most rainfall within 24 hours and the data is not correct at all, showing different years. It's not about more optimistic it's about wrong data. I also already said that I know that weather station data is always different from urban data, but still the data is wrong. If you look up different cities on that site there is often even some information missing or no data at all. Everything I post or say is based on my or other people's personal observation. And I think that's the point of posting here.

Yes it's me Hortulanus 😂

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11 minutes ago, Marco67 said:

Chamaerops looking great. Same here some winters they die back but come back from a few shoots. You live in one of the mildest parts of Germany comparable to coastal

areas in the Netherlands. I don't know why that specific part of Germany has such mild winters but Trachycarpus and Chamaerops should be planted without much problems. 

Thank you. Yes Chamaerops can do that like P. theophrastii can. If they are big enough they can die back all the way to sprout from another stem. I never lost a stem on it though. In fact even the smaller stems came back after the 2021 freeze. Our climate is so mild because we have mostly Atlantic winds like The Netherlands, the UK or France and Düsseldorf is situated in the Cologne Lowland also called Cologne bay, which is like a sheltered basin protected by small mountains, which even further decreases influence by Eastern winds and I live in a big city with the typical UHI effect. I don't live in London or Paris but here in the State of NRW big cities border with big cities and create a huge Metropolitan area. The Rhine-Ruhr area. We're not close to the sea but close to walls LOL.

Yes it's me Hortulanus 😂

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This morning I went to my parents garden to see how my old palms are doing and made some pictures of the Chamaerops in the garden... the big humilis and "big"vulcano went in the ground as small juvenile plants around 2007/2008.  I like how compact this particular C. vulcano looks. It does not make many suckers and is slow growing but growing a small trunk. The humilis is starting to get realy big. The small cerifera is around the same age but only since a few years it's starting to speed up (a few very hot summers). The other small humilis just apeared there a few years after I planted out the Brahea next to it in 2008, I guess from a seed in the potting soil of the Brahea. All these are doing just fine but all except the cerifera needed some extra help around 2010

C. cerifera.jpg

C. humilis1.jpg

C. vulcano.jpg

C. vulcano2.jpg

C.humilis2.jpg

C.humilis3.jpg

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34 minutes ago, kristof p said:

This morning I went to my parents garden to see how my old palms are doing and made some pictures of the Chamaerops in the garden... the big humilis and "big"vulcano went in the ground as small juvenile plants around 2007/2008.  I like how compact this particular C. vulcano looks. It does not make many suckers and is slow growing but growing a small trunk. The humilis is starting to get realy big. The small cerifera is around the same age but only since a few years it's starting to speed up (a few very hot summers). The other small humilis just apeared there a few years after I planted out the Brahea next to it in 2008, I guess from a seed in the potting soil of the Brahea. All these are doing just fine but all except the cerifera needed some extra help around 2010

C. cerifera.jpg

C. humilis1.jpg

C. vulcano.jpg

C. vulcano2.jpg

C.humilis2.jpg

C.humilis3.jpg

Looks beautiful! I love the vulcano! I don't think i've ever seen such a nice looking vulcano anywhere! Mine's still small, they are pretty slow compared to the standard Chamaerops. But I don't have it for that long. I don't know if Cerifera just needs heat, they seem to grow quite alright if they get enough water and they also seem to be smaller palms in general.

Yes it's me Hortulanus 😂

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32 minutes ago, Hortulanus said:

Looks beautiful! I love the vulcano! I don't think i've ever seen such a nice looking vulcano anywhere! Mine's still small, they are pretty slow compared to the standard Chamaerops. But I don't have it for that long. I don't know if Cerifera just needs heat, they seem to grow quite alright if they get enough water and they also seem to be smaller palms in general.

I have a few seedlings from that vulcano...it flowers every year but hardly ever set seeds. I can't seem to remember if there is any male Chamaerops in the garden haha 😛 . I think the seeds came from hermaphrodite flowers.  So the chance is they are true vulcano and not a hybrid with the others. Time will tell.

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Just now, kristof p said:

I have a few seedlings from that vulcano...it flowers every year but hardly ever set seeds. I can't seem to remember if there is any male Chamaerops in the garden haha 😛 . I think the seeds came from hermaphrodite flowers.  So the chance is they are true vulcano and not a hybrid with the others. Time will tell.

Wow! I think that all of my Chamaerops that have flowerd are female. I just had seeds once on one plant because it got pollinated before I got it. A cross between cerifera and volcano would be crazy! 😨

Yes it's me Hortulanus 😂

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hey Tony - 

the Brahma armata looks great. I assume it defoliated only Feb 2021. I am going to try again. I lost the only one I’ve ever planted in a winter that wasn’t too bad by DFW standards. It was only a one gallon and I didn’t protect though. 
 

V

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Mine (common green one) didn't make it, even it was growing next to adobe wall, two nights -16C/3F

NMAJAN23.jpg.ec864a48de577ca5a85ad5874a676364.jpg

IMG_20230206_110403.jpg.cbfb23b75dfa360f5e6c703dbd5a37b4.jpg

IMG_20230206_110833.jpg.f08b1b1e6bf6f8ab35555455239afc04.jpg

 

Edited by MSX
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2 hours ago, MSX said:

Mine (common green one) didn't make it, even it was growing next to adobe wall, two nights -16C/3F

NMAJAN23.jpg.ec864a48de577ca5a85ad5874a676364.jpg

IMG_20230206_110403.jpg.cbfb23b75dfa360f5e6c703dbd5a37b4.jpg

IMG_20230206_110833.jpg.f08b1b1e6bf6f8ab35555455239afc04.jpg

 

Ouch, and how is your washingtonia? 

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3 hours ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

Ouch, and how is your washingtonia? 

I have two Washies in the ground for now, both look almost dead! fronds toasted, the base of the fronds covered with fibers appears to be healthy green though, the spear leaf is fine so far

DSCN0110.thumb.jpg.309dae145fee3a447f3035ce7c8d0586.jpg

 

 

 

Edited by MSX
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7 hours ago, MSX said:

Mine (common green one) didn't make it, even it was growing next to adobe wall, two nights -16C/3F

NMAJAN23.jpg.ec864a48de577ca5a85ad5874a676364.jpg

IMG_20230206_110403.jpg.cbfb23b75dfa360f5e6c703dbd5a37b4.jpg

IMG_20230206_110833.jpg.f08b1b1e6bf6f8ab35555455239afc04.jpg

 

Curious on the days of -10c for highs, was it sunny or not? 

I have had success trunk cutting my med one time.  

Those pics bring back many personal failures. 

 

 

Edited by jwitt
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1 hour ago, jwitt said:

Curious on the days of -10c for highs, was it sunny or not? 

I have had success trunk cutting my med one time.  

Those pics bring back many personal failures.

Well it was partly cloudy that day, the airport weather station (its nearby) recorded -10C/14F high, while the temperature of the air near the palm was 0.2C/32.4F

NMAREPJ23.jpg.8afc3edfef3267a96054a8250d6b81bb.jpg

sky condition

IMG_20230111_131724.jpg.214692e4baeaa8986a3c38c310947ba2.jpg

max daytime warm up

IMG_20230111_131747.jpg.592e292dc0b5e19e2aa929b69df9b2cd.jpg

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56 minutes ago, MSX said:

Well it was partly cloudy that day, the airport weather station (its nearby) recorded -10C/14F high, while the temperature of the air near the palm was 0.2C/32.4F

NMAREPJ23.jpg.8afc3edfef3267a96054a8250d6b81bb.jpg

sky condition

IMG_20230111_131724.jpg.214692e4baeaa8986a3c38c310947ba2.jpg

max daytime warm up

IMG_20230111_131747.jpg.592e292dc0b5e19e2aa929b69df9b2cd.jpg

That seems about what we see here.  It could also be lethal to small, unestablished palms here. 

There would also be survivors of the same size palms. Keepers!

Your conditions look amazingly like here 

IMG_20230123_144905_HDR.jpg

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On 2/10/2023 at 7:36 PM, jwitt said:

I have had success trunk cutting my med one time. 

I poured peroxide twice, do you think trunk cutting would be more efficient than peroxide pouring?

IMG_20230213_150736.thumb.jpg.0c49aa1b17e163f58ae7cde3ad89e08b.jpg

  

On 2/10/2023 at 10:10 PM, jwitt said:

Your conditions look amazingly like here

That's true, including adobe houses!

Edited by MSX
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On 2/10/2023 at 7:25 AM, MSX said:

Mine (common green one) didn't make it, even it was growing next to adobe wall, two nights -16C/3F

NMAJAN23.jpg.ec864a48de577ca5a85ad5874a676364.jpg

IMG_20230206_110403.jpg.cbfb23b75dfa360f5e6c703dbd5a37b4.jpg

IMG_20230206_110833.jpg.f08b1b1e6bf6f8ab35555455239afc04.jpg

 


Woah that is brutal damage for Chamaerops. Sorry to hear. I have been moaning about this winter with my two bad freezes here, however the Chamaerops are still totally fine after -8C / 17F, despite zero protection. In fact they look better now than they did during the summer drought. I even left some outside in pots unprotected during both freeze events. Photos were taken yesterday.

E8A065A2-C23E-47AA-A41C-8EAE8F079A78.thumb.jpeg.64e5eff1f40206b213dfc2394449e4e8.jpeg

3811A011-F0D3-4E58-A1A9-9E0A268071B2.thumb.jpeg.3abf20bf81677467a4de1b736982cfb2.jpeg

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Even after the -8C night here the daytime temperature still rose to +3C I think. I had another night of -7C right after as well but it rose to like +6C the next day too. So pretty decent daytime recovery with no negative days really. Am I right in thinking you had two daytime maxes of -10C between the two -16C nights? If so that may be where a lot of the damage is coming from.

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Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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7 hours ago, MSX said:

I poured peroxide twice, do you think trunk cutting would be more efficient than peroxide pouring?

IMG_20230213_150736.thumb.jpg.0c49aa1b17e163f58ae7cde3ad89e08b.jpg

  

That's true, including adobe houses!

At a minimum open it up so a spear can grow unobstructed.  Until you do, it is dark and humid in there. 

I trunk cut mine successfully on a trunk about the same size. Yesterday's pic.

20230213131752.jpg

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On 1/15/2023 at 10:18 AM, Chester B said:

If you read above those of us in the Pacific Northwest which has a Mediterranean climate with wet winters have found the green to be hardier to cold and wet conditions. Same observations as you. 
 

My climate isn’t cold enough to kill them but I have seen some cosmetic damage on blue ones before whereas the green usually are flawless when spring arrives. 

Sounds like the blue doesn't like the combination of wet feet and cold. I'm in far northern Ca with one that I think is a cerifera in a big pot and it got bad root rot one cold year. I can't remember - I planted it from seed years ago. The leaves are thin and new ones are blue but the blue gets washed off in the rain.  It's fine now, but there is a lot of pearlite in it's pot now. Has never gotten freeze damage on the leaves.

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On 1/19/2023 at 12:44 PM, Hortulanus said:

No that's not the point. Like I said even some low data is wrong because it was actually colder in a specific year. I also checked out other extremes like most consecutive days without rain or single day with most rainfall within 24 hours and the data is not correct at all, showing different years. It's not about more optimistic it's about wrong data. I also already said that I know that weather station data is always different from urban data, but still the data is wrong. If you look up different cities on that site there is often even some information missing or no data at all. Everything I post or say is based on my or other people's personal observation. And I think that's the point of posting here.

It happens. We have one person who collects weather data where I am who is always wrong on wind speed and 5 degrees F off on heat in the summer. I've heard he lives in sort of a "hole" in the mountains. We can have hurricane force wind warnings and heat warnings in every single direction around, but not here. I just go to the other online smaller weather station data and marine forecasts if I need to know.

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1 hour ago, Lyn96 said:

It happens. We have one person who collects weather data where I am who is always wrong on wind speed and 5 degrees F off on heat in the summer. I've heard he lives in sort of a "hole" in the mountains. We can have hurricane force wind warnings and heat warnings in every single direction around, but not here. I just go to the other online smaller weather station data and marine forecasts if I need to know.

Yeah I recently made a post about this. Even official weather stations only a few kilometers appart can show huge differences:
 


Capture.PNG.6a3f7631dea7df4575fdaf16bc4714fa.PNG

-4°C at the airport open space cold spot and just 0.0°C at the weather station about 3 miles south within the same city. Only seperated by the airport and fairground area!
 

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Yes it's me Hortulanus 😂

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On 2/13/2023 at 5:34 PM, UK_Palms said:

 Am I right in thinking you had two daytime maxes of -10C between the two -16C nights? If so that may be where a lot of the damage is coming from.

Your green meds looking definitely great after -8C! Yeah, you're right we had daytime high -10 between the low -16C nights, the temperature under direct sunlight recorded that day was 0.2C though. The extremely cold weather we experienced this year has left soo many evergreen plants damaged.

  

19 hours ago, jwitt said:

At a minimum open it up so a spear can grow unobstructed.  Until you do, it is dark and humid in there. 

I trunk cut mine successfully on a trunk about the same size. Yesterday's pic.

What a beautiful dog! I trunk cut mine today, the problem is that you don't know when to stop, I ended up a couple of inches from the trunk base, don't know if this will help. I have a strong feeling the next garden tool I will need here will be a shovel!

IMG_20230214_161753.thumb.jpg.cc1be2f42abd425ff27b18d53698c5d1.jpg

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IMG_20230214_161719.thumb.jpg.f5ea5026518f1e939789385c9380e925.jpg

 

 

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21 hours ago, Lyn96 said:

It happens. We have one person who collects weather data where I am who is always wrong on wind speed and 5 degrees F off on heat in the summer. I've heard he lives in sort of a "hole" in the mountains. We can have hurricane force wind warnings and heat warnings in every single direction around, but not here. I just go to the other online smaller weather station data and marine forecasts if I need to know.

After using google for 5 minutes you can find 10 different sites with 10 different temperature numbers for the same city.  This might be due to different locations where the temperatures were measured with slightly different conditions. I don't think that these weather stations are necessarily wrong.  Also you read sometimes that people measure temperatures in their garden themselves under unknown conditions. If there is a difference with official weather stations they claim that the weather station must be wrong 😁

Edited by Marco67
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On 2/14/2023 at 11:19 AM, Marco67 said:

After using google for 5 minutes you can find 10 different sites with 10 different temperature numbers for the same city.  This might be due to different locations where the temperatures were measured with slightly different conditions. I don't think that these weather stations are necessarily wrong.  Also you read sometimes that people measure temperatures in their garden themselves under unknown conditions. If there is a difference with official weather stations they claim that the weather station must be wrong 😁

Yeah, but it's wrong if you live under huge trees and the wind forecast for the entire broader area for 50 miles around is forecasted for much lower than actual wind speeds. One year we had trees falling all over the place several times that winter. I looked at the marine forecast and bugged out of my place each time. My friend on the other side of town didn't and couldn't get out because the road was blocked by trees. She spent the night in a small trailer with trees falling down all around her. Luckily none fell on her but she was pretty tramatised..

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