Chamaedorea microspadix after a freeze

[matthedlund]

I thought I'd take the chance to highlight a cold hardy palm that's really underutilized in Northern areas. Here in Seattle, zone 8b we had a freeze the week before Christmas with lows around 17 degrees F and several continuous days below freezing.  We've had enough warm weather now that damage is showing on many other plants, but these are looking pretty good to me. These have been in the ground about 6 years now, in heavy shade.

Bonus pics of some random bromeliads including Greigia sphacelata, Fascicularia bicolor ssp. caniculata, and Puya berteroniana.

[matthedlund]

2 minutes ago, matthedlund said:

I thought I'd take the chance to highlight a cold hardy palm that's really underutilized in Northern areas. Here in Seattle, zone 8b we had a freeze the week before Christmas with lows around 17 degrees F and several continuous days below freezing.  We've had enough warm weather now that damage is showing on many other plants, but these are looking pretty good to me. These have been in the ground about 6 years now, in heavy shade.

Bonus pics of some random bromeliads including Greigia sphacelata, Fascicularia bicolor ssp. caniculata, and Puya berteroniana.

A few more Greigia pics.

[DAVEinMB]

@matthedlund mine came through 13F with mixed results, some look really beat up while others are showing little signs of distress. Seems like the ones that are more exposed to sun are showing damage more than ones in deep shade. Definitely tough buggers

[necturus]

In contrast, mine in Houston look far worse. Most have spear pull, and I bet I will loose a lot of canes. We probably saw similar lows (17-18 deg).

[DAVEinMB]

I'll post some pics tomorrow. I'm really surprised with how most of them look.

c. Radicalis for the win tho. Hands down. 

[thyerr01]

Mine were protected under some giant rubbermaid bins filled with leaves during our recent Houston freeze and they also look pretty bad. Much worse than those pictured. I think all the canes will survive though. Is this just variation between individuals?

[jwitt]

Looks like Houston had an above average month(temperature), even with this event.  

Myrtle Beach had a below average month.

Seattle was in fall mode for months.

Could this be some of the reason for the  difference? 

One place looks to have skipped fall

 

[DAVEinMB]

Ok here are a few pics of probably the best looking clump. Somewhere between 5 and 6 feet tall. Pictures taken just a few minutes ago. 

I've also included some pics of a rhapis excelsa planted a few feet away. these are both planted against the house so I'm sure that helped. Neither got covered or supplemental heat. Recorded 13F on my weather station

[Manalto]

I've had Rhapis get killed to the ground (and regrow) at 17F similarly protected close to the house, so I'm surprised to see yours come through so beautifully at 13F. I like your palm choices for foundation plantings. They're handsome plants that blend well with just about anything.

[DAVEinMB]

4 hours ago, Manalto said:

I've had Rhapis get killed to the ground (and regrow) at 17F similarly protected close to the house, so I'm surprised to see yours come through so beautifully at 13F. I like your palm choices for foundation plantings. They're handsome plants that blend well with just about anything.

Yea there must be something at play in that little nook because they both came through the freezing rain and 19F last year really well.

And thanks, there's more to come... but that's for another thread haha

[Chester B]

My microspadix look terrible, just like they do every year.  And my poor Fasicularia is rabbit candy, I had to pull it and put in a pot to recover to be later planted in my rabbit free backyard.

[matthedlund]

2 hours ago, Chester B said:

My microspadix look terrible, just like they do every year.  And my poor Fasicularia is rabbit candy, I had to pull it and put in a pot to recover to be later planted in my rabbit free backyard.

Try a Puya species, it'll eat the rabbits. Puya berteroniana, P. spathacea, and P. dyckoides have been pretty hardy for me.

[Chester B]

6 hours ago, matthedlund said:

Try a Puya species, it'll eat the rabbits. Puya berteroniana, P. spathacea, and P. dyckoides have been pretty hardy for me.

I've had my eye on them for a while.  Never seen one in person but I have heard they do well here.

[palmnut-fry]

Puya! This genus caught my eye years ago in a pic I saw in a book. The flowers of emerald and turquoise! Tall spikes, too.
But "kills rabbits"? Hell no! LOL

[thyerr01]

My C. microspadix today, after -8C (17f) and 36+ hours below freezing during our Christmas freeze. 

[matthedlund]

On 1/14/2023 at 6:38 AM, palmnut-fry said:

Puya! This genus caught my eye years ago in a pic I saw in a book. The flowers of emerald and turquoise! Tall spikes, too.
But "kills rabbits"? Hell no! LOL

Many Puya have thorns that point inwards and are considered 'protocarnivorous'. You definitely don't want to push your hand into one!

[MikeB]

On 1/9/2023 at 10:45 PM, DAVEinMB said:

Ok here are a few pics of probably the best looking clump. Somewhere between 5 and 6 feet tall. Pictures taken just a few minutes ago. 

I've also included some pics of a rhapis excelsa planted a few feet away. these are both planted against the house so I'm sure that helped. Neither got covered or supplemental heat. Recorded 13F on my weather station

It's hard to tell from the photo but the spears on the tallest stems look damaged.  It would not hurt to treat with fungicide or hydrogen peroxide or both.  The leaves can look great at the same time fungus is attacking the bud.  The plants will survive but you don't want to loose the tallest stems.  I have the same situation with Dypsis lutescens in my climate.  If I treat quickly I can usually save the tallest stems/trunks.  You have a great microclimate with the walls.  Is there overhead protection?

[Arecaceus]

Very interesting thread for me. I have a smiliar climate and I've seen some C. radicalis around here. I might try both radicalis and microspadix for the only shady corner I have. I think the reason why they didn't do so well in Houston, might be the higher temperatures in general? I feel like in our Northern latitudes with mild winters some species really benefit from the dormant phase of the year. While in the warmer areas some plants take a hit during a hard freeze because they are still fully or almost fully vegetating?

[RJ]

1 hour ago, Hortulanus said:

Very interesting thread for me. I have a smiliar climate and I've seen some C. radicalis around here. I might try both radicalis and microspadix for the only shady corner I have. I think the reason why they didn't do so well in Houston, might be the higher temperatures in general? I feel like in our Northern latitudes with mild winters some species really benefit from the dormant phase of the year. While in the warmer areas some plants take a hit during a hard freeze because they are still fully or almost fully vegetating?

That’s the kicker… I’ve heard sun, shade and everything In between for c. Radicalis.  As a small palm one would automatically think shade -understory,  however, perhaps it’s a pioneer species. A prolific seeder, that never expects to be around long, gets overgrown by other vegetation but it’s offspring spread the “word”…. 🤷‍♂️
 

 

[Silas_Sancona]

1 hour ago, Hortulanus said:

Very interesting thread for me. I have a smiliar climate and I've seen some C. radicalis around here. I might try both radicalis and microspadix for the only shady corner I have. I think the reason why they didn't do so well in Houston, might be the higher temperatures in general? I feel like in our Northern latitudes with mild winters some species really benefit from the dormant phase of the year. While in the warmer areas some plants take a hit during a hard freeze because they are still fully or almost fully vegetating?

Purple highlighted sentence pretty much answers the question.. 

There are exceptions of course, but,  damage to a plant, esp anything that is otherwise already reasonably cold hardy is more related to what the weather is doing before  a big cold spell arrives.

...If the weather had been warm / really warm for several weeks/ months leading right up to a big, abrupt cold spell, you're more likely to see more damage after that sudden weather change than if the weather were cooler for several weeks / months leading up to the same cold episode, esp if that weather change is more severe than usual.

Cooler weather generally puts plants to sleep, ...or at least really slows them down, and helps to harden off anything tender..  If it is constantly warm, same plants are spending time and energy on growing lots of tender ..growth  ..until something brings that particular growth cycle to a halt.

Here in the Sonoran Desert, while we see the same "slowing down" of growth on a lot of things this time of year -more years than not anyway-   the extreme summer heat here also causes many things to slow down or stop growing  for a little bit during the hottest part of our summers.  

Hang out here watching plants through an entire spring / summer season, and you'd see a majority of plants -native and non native- growing like mad from mid/ late Feb.- about mid-May, then hit a wall and slow down to a creep come late May / June / early July, ...only to resume growing again once the return of Monsoon season rain / higher humidity tempers the heat in late July -September ...or October,  if we're lucky, lol..

Yes, there are some things that only start growing when it is hot, but those things usually wait for the rains to arrive -sometime in July- before they start moving.. Cooling temps. in the mid / late fall put most of those things to bed for the year.

While it can happen here too,  it is much less common we see the same kind of  " hot until suddenly freezing"  kind of weather pattern in winter other parts of the country east of here can see.  By the same token, summer, heat-related damage is uncommon in many parts of the eastern U.S. due to that side of the country having higher humidity levels through the warm season. All that sweaty humidity acts like a shield to heat damage.
 

[DAVEinMB]

17 hours ago, MikeB said:

It's hard to tell from the photo but the spears on the tallest stems look damaged.  It would not hurt to treat with fungicide or hydrogen peroxide or both.  The leaves can look great at the same time fungus is attacking the bud.  The plants will survive but you don't want to loose the tallest stems.  I have the same situation with Dypsis lutescens in my climate.  If I treat quickly I can usually save the tallest stems/trunks.  You have a great microclimate with the walls.  Is there overhead protection?

Yea the newest spears are a little beat up. I have them a tug and they feel solid. I haven't applied any peroxide or fungicide yet but that probably wouldn't be a bad idea. There's a little bit of overhang from the roof but not a whole lot. I've been kicking around the idea of building a pergola-style roof the length of the sidewalk and attaching frost cloth to it. Would make for a nice ceiling

[Fusca]

19 hours ago, RJ said:

That’s the kicker… I’ve heard sun, shade and everything In between for c. Radicalis.  As a small palm one would automatically think shade -understory,  however, perhaps it’s a pioneer species. A prolific seeder, that never expects to be around long, gets overgrown by other vegetation but it’s offspring spread the “word”…. 🤷‍♂️

I've read that C. radicalis can handle full sun but probably dependent on the region where it's planted.  Columbia, SC (or Tennessee!) - probably is OK.  I seriously doubt that they would do well in full sun here in South Texas, South Arizona, inland California etc.  Heat and drought aren't a problem for them it seems - mine didn't flinch at several days around 105°F in partial shade.  Not sure about Phoenix-type 120°F summer heat though.  C. microspadix is less sun tolerant than radicalis so it needs shade regardless of the region.

[amh]

5 hours ago, Fusca said:

I've read that C. radicalis can handle full sun but probably dependent on the region where it's planted.  Columbia, SC (or Tennessee!) - probably is OK.  I seriously doubt that they would do well in full sun here in South Texas, South Arizona, inland California etc.  Heat and drought aren't a problem for them it seems - mine didn't flinch at several days around 105°F in partial shade.  Not sure about Phoenix-type 120°F summer heat though.  C. microspadix is less sun tolerant than radicalis so it needs shade regardless of the region.

C. microspadix is a strict under story plant in south Texas, but I am finding C. radicalis really likes the sun, even in last summers growing conditions. I wouldn't plant C. radicalis in an open field, but shade will greatly stunt the growth.

[Harry’s Palms]

15 hours ago, amh said:

C. microspadix is a strict under story plant in south Texas, but I am finding C. radicalis really likes the sun, even in last summers growing conditions. I wouldn't plant C. radicalis in an open field, but shade will greatly stunt the growth.

I find the same thing here in Southern California , about 17 miles inland. The Radicalis Tree Form LOVES the sun! The Microspadix ...not so much. Even on the side of my house under my other palms it doesn't get dark green , more of a lighter green and burns easily . Microspadix and Radicalis are both quite prolific and the seeds germinate freely. We get low 40's here but not much colder. In 25+ years I have only seen lite frost once. 

[knikfar]

On 1/9/2023 at 1:51 PM, DAVEinMB said:

@matthedlund mine came through 13F with mixed results, some look really beat up while others are showing little signs of distress. Seems like the ones that are more exposed to sun are showing damage more than ones in deep shade. Definitely tough buggers

Do you happen to have yours planted up against your house? I ordered some that should be delivered soon. I'm planning on growing them until they get a bit more size on them and then planting them directly against my foundation, under the eaves. If yours can survive 13f away from your house, mine might be able to survive here in Raleigh right up against my house. My hopeful thinking of course. 

[DAVEinMB]

20 minutes ago, knikfar said:

Do you happen to have yours planted up against your house? I ordered some that should be delivered soon. I'm planning on growing them until they get a bit more size on them and then planting them directly against my foundation, under the eaves. If yours can survive 13f away from your house, mine might be able to survive here in Raleigh right up against my house. My hopeful thinking of course. 

The clump I posted above is the closest to the house of all that I have planted. I'll get some more pics of the other clumps for comparison purposes. I would definitely give them a try in Raleigh in a protected spot, when a real cold winter comes along you can probably pull them through with a sheet and Christmas lights. My yucca cane survived this past winter here using that method

[Fusca]

On 1/17/2023 at 7:40 PM, amh said:

C. microspadix is a strict under story plant in south Texas, but I am finding C. radicalis really likes the sun, even in last summers growing conditions. I wouldn't plant C. radicalis in an open field, but shade will greatly stunt the growth.

 

On 1/18/2023 at 11:21 AM, Harry’s Palms said:

I find the same thing here in Southern California , about 17 miles inland. The Radicalis Tree Form LOVES the sun! The Microspadix ...not so much. Even on the side of my house under my other palms it doesn't get dark green , more of a lighter green and burns easily . Microspadix and Radicalis are both quite prolific and the seeds germinate freely. We get low 40's here but not much colder. In 25+ years I have only seen lite frost once. 

That's great to hear - I might try giving some more sun!    Does the non-trunking form do well also?

[amh]

2 hours ago, Fusca said:

 

That's great to hear - I might try giving some more sun!    Does the non-trunking form do well also?

Experiment while the palms are in containers before planting, but the C. radicalis is more sun hardy than I had read. The microspadix will grow faster in the sun as well, but will suffer burning on the leaves. I haven't had burning on C. microspadix growing in bright dappled shade, but my water is low in salt and an abnormal not very high pH for being on the Edwards plateau.

I only have the trunking form at present.

Edited January 19, 2023 by amh

[DAVEinMB]

@knikfar here are some pics of the other clumps of c. microspadix with some C. radicalis mixed in. the Radicalis looks leaps and bounds better than the microspadix, almost look like we never got an arctic blast. The newest growth on all the microspadix feels pretty firm so I may get lucky and not lose any of my taller ones. The tallest are around 6' now

[Love them palms]

have not uncovered my microspadix yet . waiting for the weather to warm up a tad here in Mukilteo Washington before any removals . learned my lesson from last year.

[Chester B]

19F. Under pretty decent overhead cover from mass planted Trachys. Full shade.

They look the worst this year but most years they look like garbage in spring. 

[Harry’s Palms]

On 1/19/2023 at 12:48 PM, Fusca said:

 

That's great to hear - I might try giving some more sun!    Does the non-trunking form do well also?

All the C. Radicalis I have are tree form and they end up 7-8 feet tall . The fronds are more tightly held when they get over 6 feet but remain nice and green. The C. Microspadix are similar in color to my C. Tepejelote but more silvery underneath. 

[amh]

I've been keeping my gallon sized chamaedorea in an unheated tent greenhouse. So far the outside temperatures have been down to about 21^oF, but I brought everything inside for the Christmas cold of about 11^oF. So far I am not noticing any issues and the plants are actively growing. The C. microspadix in the picture have some sun burn on older leaves from this last summer. Both species need some fertilizer.

Edited January 24, 2023 by amh