Root Stimulator Frequency - Beccariophoenix alfredii

[sacts]

I've had to re-stake all my Beccariophoenix alfredii palms several times after heavier wind storms.  I've already added mounds of soil around all these palms to better stabilize but this was three years ago and still no luck.  Last time I restacked them a month ago I noticed that there isn't much root growth beneath the trees so I'm using root stimulator to hopefully help.  Was wondering if anyone has recommendations on the frequency in which I can reapply root stimulator for these palms.  I was thinking every two weeks?  And for how long?  If these blow over again it's out with the chainsaw as I'm sick and tired of restacking.  I've had the trees for 5 years so you would think by now they should be good but clearly they aren't.   Thanks!

[sonoranfans]

if the soil is sandy, ammendments work better than root stimulator.  You can stimualte roots but if they are not properly dry cycling they wont grow in that part of the soil.  Poor root development happens when soil is not dry cycled properly or doesnt have cat ion exchange capacity(sand).  Alfredii in sandy soil should carry fewer leaves.  Mulch, mulch and keep the number of leaves down a bit if you have sandy soil.   My alfredii haven't been knocked down in 11 years( 2 hurricanes) since planting.   Drip irrigation will also stagnate root development in sandy soil as it does not spread as evenly as a sprinkler.  If you have clay soil, it will be easier but still ther is a window(4-5 years) where root development needs to be strong.  These palms grow deep, expansive roots given a consistent, proper dry cycle over a large root zone.  They also carry lots of leaves and can get knocked down if the dry cycle is not consistent and large over a wide area.  If you have mainly sand, I would add turface MVP(sintered clay gravel) which will improve the dry cycle consistency and also top mulch 2x a year.

[sacts]

Thanks so much for the advice.  Everything you said seems to makes sense with the problem my palms are having.  I had all of these on a drip system but because they are in a yard there is also a sprinkler system so I think the drip has messed up the root development.  I turned of the drips two months ago.  I'm in Orlando area so my soil seems fairly sandy for sure although it seems to vary in parts of the yard.  For the turface MVP, is this what you are referring to:  https://www.amazon.com/Turface-MVP-Additives-Aggregates-Acidifier/dp/B07MDNGKHM/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=turface+mvp&qid=1672150600&sr=8-3?  I'm guessing I would need more than 2 quarts per tree but thought you may have a better idea of the amount (or can I use something like Organic Perlite Soil Amendment instead).  Also, for frond removals, will it harm the palm if I remove some of the green fronds like mentioned?

Edited December 27, 2022 by sacts

[JohnAndSancho]

5 hours ago, sacts said:

Thanks so much for the advice.  Everything you said seems to makes sense with the problem my palms are having.  I had all of these on a drip system but because they are in a yard there is also a sprinkler system so I think the drip has messed up the root development.  I turned of the drips two months ago.  I'm in Orlando area so my soil seems fairly sandy for sure although it seems to vary in parts of the yard.  For the turface MVP, is this what you are referring to:  https://www.amazon.com/Turface-MVP-Additives-Aggregates-Acidifier/dp/B07MDNGKHM/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=turface+mvp&qid=1672150600&sr=8-3?  I'm guessing I would need more than 2 quarts per tree but thought you may have a better idea of the amount (or can I use something like Organic Perlite Soil Amendment instead).  Also, for frond removals, will it harm the palm if I remove some of the green fronds like mentioned?

Find an irrigation store for your Turface. I dunno what's in Orlando but there's a chain here called Ewing Irrigation, a 50 pound bag is like $17 or so. 

[Merlyn]

18 minutes ago, JohnAndSancho said:

Find an irrigation store for your Turface. I dunno what's in Orlando but there's a chain here called Ewing Irrigation, a 50 pound bag is like $17 or so. 

Ewing Irrigation in Sanford carries it, the last time I bought some it was $14 or 15 per 50lb bag.  Each bag is a bit less than 2cuft, so it's fairly cheap.  There's another Ewing in downtown Orlando and another in Kissimmee.  Probably the others carry it too.  The one up here is used to bonsai people coming by to get a couple of bags.

@sactsI had to re-stake 4 out of 5 B. Alfredii after the two hurricanes Ian and Nicole.  I only had barely hurricane force gusts here, but there were quite a few big downdrafts.  Mine are now 15-25' total height, and not yet trunking.  Two of them are getting close to trunking and are much more stable now.  At this point I really think that it's just the huge fronds and relatively small number of big diameter roots.  Mine end up looking like they are air girdled: http://www.marriedtoplants.com/palms/palm-tree-growing-tips-mounding/

A couple of pictures would help diagnose any other possible problems.

[Looking Glass]

Were all these tippy Alfredii planted large or small?   I wonder if putting them in small and a little deeper would help?   Still, I know these have very wobbly tendencies pre-trunking.  My Fenestralis is super loose at the base.   Reminds me of one of these….  
 

 

Edited December 27, 2022 by Looking Glass

[Looking Glass]

19 hours ago, sacts said:

I've had to re-stake all my Beccariophoenix alfredii palms several times after heavier wind storms.  I've already added mounds of soil around all these palms to better stabilize but this was three years ago and still no luck.  Last time I restacked them a month ago I noticed that there isn't much root growth beneath the trees so I'm using root stimulator to hopefully help.  Was wondering if anyone has recommendations on the frequency in which I can reapply root stimulator for these palms.  I was thinking every two weeks?  And for how long?  If these blow over again it's out with the chainsaw as I'm sick and tired of restacking.  I've had the trees for 5 years so you would think by now they should be good but clearly they aren't.   Thanks!

By “root stimulator” do you mean rooting hormone?   If so, I think all that does is tell undifferentiated plant tissues to become roots.   Putting rooting hormone on roots doesn’t do much, as the tissue is already knows it is root tissue.   Works more for plant cuttings to tell undifferentiated stem tissue to become root tissue. 

[sonoranfans]

9 hours ago, sacts said:

Thanks so much for the advice.  Everything you said seems to makes sense with the problem my palms are having.  I had all of these on a drip system but because they are in a yard there is also a sprinkler system so I think the drip has messed up the root development.  I turned of the drips two months ago.  I'm in Orlando area so my soil seems fairly sandy for sure although it seems to vary in parts of the yard.  For the turface MVP, is this what you are referring to:  https://www.amazon.com/Turface-MVP-Additives-Aggregates-Acidifier/dp/B07MDNGKHM/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=turface+mvp&qid=1672150600&sr=8-3?  I'm guessing I would need more than 2 quarts per tree but thought you may have a better idea of the amount (or can I use something like Organic Perlite Soil Amendment instead).  Also, for frond removals, will it harm the palm if I remove some of the green fronds like mentioned?

I would make sure those sprinklers are watering a wide area around the roots of the palms 2x a week for 30 mins in our dry spring.  Put the turface down, 50 lb bag per tree 8' radius.   Worki it in and then top much.  feed with palm fertilizer every few months for now starting early feb.

[pj_orlando_z9b]

On 12/26/2022 at 9:32 PM, sacts said:

I've had to re-stake all my Beccariophoenix alfredii palms several times after heavier wind storms.  I've already added mounds of soil around all these palms to better stabilize but this was three years ago and still no luck.  Last time I restacked them a month ago I noticed that there isn't much root growth beneath the trees so I'm using root stimulator to hopefully help.  Was wondering if anyone has recommendations on the frequency in which I can reapply root stimulator for these palms.  I was thinking every two weeks?  And for how long?  If these blow over again it's out with the chainsaw as I'm sick and tired of restacking.  I've had the trees for 5 years so you would think by now they should be good but clearly they aren't.   Thanks!

Interesting to me in that I'm experiencing the exact same thing. I didn't have the problem until Hurricane Ian knocked it over.  After I restaked, Nicole also blew it right over. I'm trying again but it just loves to lean. Before and after. 

[sacts]

@pj_orlando_z9bHow funny, that is exactly what happened with mine although mine were already staked before Ian because the were wobbly at the bases.  Ian knocked them down, I staked them back up, then Nicole knocked them right down again.  I bought mine at Lucas nursery after Irma knocked down some of my older palms but every time I ask them if others have this problem with these palms they look at me like I'm crazy.  If you walk around their nursery they have several of these planted and they basically planted them way deeper than I've ever seen any tree or palm planted (probably to accommodate for this issue).  I will personally never buy anymore of these.  I have other trees I could take a blow torch to and they would be fine.  These trees have to be coddled and don't seem to take in the soil that I have.  About two years ago and added mounds of dirt around mine to try and stabilize them better but it did nothing to help with locking the trees in.

[pj_orlando_z9b]

2 hours ago, sacts said:

@pj_orlando_z9bHow funny, that is exactly what happened with mine although mine were already staked before Ian because the were wobbly at the bases.  Ian knocked them down, I staked them back up, then Nicole knocked them right down again.  I bought mine at Lucas nursery after Irma knocked down some of my older palms but every time I ask them if others have this problem with these palms they look at me like I'm crazy.  If you walk around their nursery they have several of these planted and they basically planted them way deeper than I've ever seen any tree or palm planted (probably to accommodate for this issue).  I will personally never buy anymore of these.  I have other trees I could take a blow torch to and they would be fine.  These trees have to be coddled and don't seem to take in the soil that I have.  About two years ago and added mounds of dirt around mine to try and stabilize them better but it did nothing to help with locking the trees in.

I bought mine from MB Palms at a Leu Gardens plant sale 4 yrs ago. It's been a great grower for me and this was the first time I had issues with it falling over. The canopy is the largest it has been so I can imagine the weight in one side isnt helping. Which oart of town are you? Belle Isle here. 

[sacts]

@pj_orlando_z9bI'm by Lake Howell so Maitland/Casselberry/Winter Springs area

[Merlyn]

@sactsI noticed that Lukas had planted a bunch of them around the nursery, but I hadn't looked at how deep they planted them.  I'll have to go check them out the next time I'm going past.  The risk with burying them deep is fungal trunk rot.  Since B. Alfredii was only discovered about 10-15 years ago, I don't think there's a lot of solid info about how deep is too deep.  They might be totally fine with the bottom couple of inches buried.

All 5 of mine are planted "to specifications" like you'd do any other palm.  The Root Initiation Zone is basically exactly at ground level and I've got mulch up to but not covering the lowest leaf bases.  All of them had some lean with Ian and Nicole.  My solution was to sledgehammer a 5' piece of 1.5" conduit into the ground and tie them up:

A single center stake didn't hold this up in Nicole, the soft steel conduit bent at ground level.  So I hammered two pieces into the ground and tied on two sides with the thicker black nylon rope:

[sonoranfans]

Once you tear up the roots from a knockdown, the palm is in recovery mode and cannot handle the leaf support burden.  This is one case where I think if you have to plant the palm in the open by itself, trim some green leaves off to give the roots a chance to develop.  Few palms grow well in sand, if they arent knocked over they get stunted.  Almost all want regular top mulching and in sand they all want irrigation in the spring when its hot and doesnt rain.  Planting palms in groups can be a big advantage in wind.  I have a sabal mauritiifromis that sat behind a magnolia in Ian and it was barely damaged.  Mauritiiformis are terrible in wind and yet barely damaged behing that magnoilia.  Same is said for cold tolerance if you have some borderline palms, group them with each other and other palms when possible.  The other thing is alfrediis are terrible for staking, they have no trunk till they are 25'+ feet.  If a palm doesnt have a trunk, there isnt much to stake to in a leverage sense.  We get winds all the time in florida so wind damaged roots can be difficult to recover from without trimming up the palm.  I remember how eucalyuptus trees grew in arizona, too much up top growth for the roots under when irrigated regularly.  They fell over a lot.  Alfredii may be a palm that can overgrow its root structure in some climates.  If that is the case, keeping the crown smaller helps protect the roots.  After 5 years maybe the roots are developed enough to work on their own.  Worst case would be alfredii out in the open by itself in sandy soil.   Wind protection while roots establish is an option with netting or windscreen plants.  My alfredii were planted out at 3 gallon size, just putting out their first pinnate leaves.  I have no idea what happens when you plant out a large one in terms of root stability.  

[Looking Glass]

3 hours ago, sacts said:

I bought mine at Lucas nursery after Irma knocked down some of my older palms but every time I ask them if others have this problem with these palms they look at me like I'm crazy.  If you walk around their nursery they have several of these planted and they basically planted them way deeper than I've ever seen any tree or palm planted (probably to accommodate for this issue).  

I wonder if these should be planted a lot deeper than we are accustomed to.   This family of palms seems to want to snap off at the soil line early on.  I planted mine a hair deeper than normal, but wonder if it should have been much deeper.